Madness in Webster NY two first responders shot and killed

[uwe]

Wow, and all this coming from a Canadian, surely the closest possible comparison to the US.

Can anybody in his right mind consider a weapon such as the Bushmaster "a hunting gun"? Not unless your idea of hunting is emulating poachers for near extinct species in civil war-torn African countries. Any hunting club in Germany would unceremoniously kick you out if you showed up with one. My uncle is a an avid hunter and lost an arm due to playing with derelict WW II ammo as a youth - he got lucky: of his two buddies one went blind and one died in that incident -, never in his life would he consider a semi-automatic for hunting, that is unfathomable in Germany, akin to joining an angling club and proceeding to dynamite fish. 

It was new to me that supposed hunting guns emulate a military look like the Bushmaster does and I did not take its name to insinuate that you hunt boar in the jungle with it but rather do jungle warfare against humans. Sort of taking paint gun games a lethal step further.

Don't ruin my image of the US even further and tell that it is ok to machine gun game in the US? What's next, using a flame thrower to save on the subsequen Bar-B-Q?

[Granny Gremlin]

Actually, culturally speaking, I'd say Aussies are closer in general.  We're just the neighbors.

It surprised me quite a bit when I went there to visit my sister in law.

But even there the "bikies" (I love how cute the term is; doesn't inspire half as much fear as "biker," but I find Aussies generally tend to the diminutive/cute version of everything even when it doesn't reflect the reality), the main org crime group aside from imported minority groups' gangs, don't actually ride around packing (like as a rule).  Sure, they have guns, assault rifles even, but they don't carry them around (in urban areas).  They usually get busted for fisticuffs or knife assault along with drugs (at which point the authorities get search warrants and find the guns they have stashed in their basements).  In the words of Arthur himself, it's a silly place (but do go there; it's mostly pretty fun.... unless you're vegan).

[uwe]

"We're just the neighbors."

I know. One nation under God and Canada.

There is violence and crime in Germany too. We had a Nazi group that assasinated randomly picked non-Germans for a decade in various parts in Germany and making it look like it was inner-ethnic group violence. When the police closed up on them (after a immense amount of bungling and getting lost in competence mazes as well as not pulling information together, sounds familiar, doesn't it?) the two guys (both with "Uwe" as a first name  ) shot themselves while the woman is now awaiting trial and remaining silent.

But - statistically - you are still most likely to die by being knifed (or shot at with a hand gun) by your significant other in marital strife than by being shot in a robbery, by a contract killer, a racist or a maniac. Under that statistic always wearing  a gun with you once you are married will significantly raise your own life expectation though not necessarily so the life expectancy of your partner ...

The assumption that prevalence of guns makes the good guys safer is a bit like thinking that Israel's nuclear arsenal has made the Middle East more peaceful or that a nuke-armed Iran would be a safer place to live in than it is now if you are an Iranian. I very much doubt it whether the CIA and the Israeli Air Force see it that way. Prevalence of arms just raises the chances of something going awfully wrong.

[Granny Gremlin]

Yep; escalation is the problem.

Weapons, as much as they are a deterrent, are also a motivator for the other guy to level up himself.  Especially if the kid with the BFG is pushing you around all the time.

It's high school on a global level.  ... and the principal/student council is just as inept at dealing with the situation as you remember yours being.

[mc2NY]

Actually, culturally speaking, I'd say Aussies are closer in general.  We're just the neighbors.

I agree. I'm from NYC but also have a place in Canada...and I lived with an Aussie GF for a couple of years.

Australians definitely have a closer disposition to Americans...more of a brash attitude and a rawness.

Canadians are more like Brits IMO...more passive and complacent. Very polite and friendly and clean too
Nice people. I always marvel at how clean Canada is when I am up there.

But if I were going to a gunfight, I'd bring a Aussie if I had to choose someone to ride shotgun and cover my back.
Bill Murray and John Candy -vs- Crockadile Dundee and Mad Max  

OH...and Granny DID make a very good other point as to why U.S. gun control laws will never work....no matter how many more stupid laws they pass. The politicians on the left/Democrats who are the big anti-gun agenda guys and also the same ones who refuse to seal our country's borders. With the insane numbers of illegal weapons that flood into the U.S. across the Mexican border, any gun control laws will never do a thing to stem the problem. It is all just political posturing.

Here are some maps that show the real gun problem in America that politiacians and media refuse to talk about because it would offend the core of the Democratic/left party. It alwasy comes down to votes and staying in power, doesn't it?:

http://www.gunlaws.com/GunshotDemographics.htm

[uwe]

Ok, you've got me now, Rochester and Sandy Hook are populated by drug traficking illegal alien and/or black minorities that go on shooting sprees in white middle class schools, a Democrat led and controlled media has perversely concealed that from us so far. Luckily, www.gunlaws.com, that non-partisan website dedicated to neutral, scientifically validated news has escaped their unholy influence so far. I suspect that some KKK websites have good, neutral information on the birth certificate of that mulatto President-wanna-be too.

I know a Spic and a Spade when I see them, both illegal aliens, both dark-skinned drug traffickers, welfare queens for generations:








Tell the mourning parents and firemen how tougher drug busts and quicker alien extradition would have prevented their plight. And don't foget to mention how Madison, NC, has somehow slipped below the Rio Grande where all the (Am)Bushmasters come from. Those crazy tectonic movements, hard to keep up with them! Here is a close-up of a typical Madison resident about to enter the United States:




"Bushmaster Firearms International, LLC, based in Madison, North Carolina, in the United States, is a manufacturer and distributor of guns. Bushmaster's product line revolves around semi-automatic pistol and rifle variants of the M4 / AR-15 design. As of the latest 2003 ATF information on firearm production figures, Bushmaster is currently the best-selling brand for AR type firearms in the United States.[citation needed] The .223-caliber Bushmaster rifle is known as the weapon that was used by the DC sniper in 2002.[1]

Bushmaster became part of the Freedom Group, owned by Cerberus Capital Management, when owner Richard E. Dyke, who had purchased the company in 1978, sold the company to Cerberus in April, 2006. [2] On December 18, 2012, following the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting with one of its products, Cerberus announced that it will sell Bushmaster.[3]"

With the right mindset, everything can be explained away.  

[Dave W]

Ah, here we go. Blame Bushmaster, even though (1) as yet there's no evidence that the Webster shooter used his, and it was illegally gotten in any case, and (2) it's almost certain it wasn't used at Sandy Hook, unless you're a dupe who believes the agenda-driven media's change of story. Remember "Baghdad Bob"? He was more believable than mainstream US media.

Semi-automatic rifles like the Bushmaster have been popular for years among hunters and sport shooters. It's not the weapon of choice for inner city thugs. But let's ban it so law abiding citizens can't use it.

[uwe]

1. Hunting and semi-automatics?   How chivalrous.

2. "It's almost certain it wasn't used at Sandy Hook, unless you're a dupe who believes the agenda-driven media's change of story ...".

Ok, not even the NRA has yet risen to that claim, but you do? A life without conspiracy theories would be a poorer one, right? Where is your evidence for "almost certain", Dave? Another reputable site like www.gunlaws.com?

[mc2NY]

Ok, you've got me now, Rochester and Sandy Hook are populated by drug traficking illegal alien and/or black minorities that go on shooting sprees in white middle class schools, a Democrat led and controlled media has perversely concealed that from us so far.

Uh...no.

Nearly all of the U.S. "gun violence" that the leftwing anti-gun politicians and media play up is done by THEIR OWN CONSTITUENTS -- largely black and hispanic males killing mostly the same in inner city drug/gang/criminal violence. But the left will not even discuss that....because they do not want to lose the votes from that segment of their wonderful voter base.

INSTEAD...they play up the handful of shootings that involve, usually, some deranged/mentally ill white male who finally snaps and shoots a pile of inocent people at a school or shopping mall...usually is some "gun free zone" that is left wide open wiht no protection for the coward to kill in (thanks again to the well-meaning lefty anti-gun crowd maling laws that do not address the actual problem.)  And the liberal anti-gun media plays up these "white shooter" killings to make it look like there is some gigantic "gun problem" and "we need to ban guns"...when, in truth, those killings do not even amount to a decimal point of the total U.S. gun killings.

Plus, their stupid solution is "more gun laws/bans" that only LAW ABIDING CITIZENS WILL FOLLOW...and NOT the criminals or crazies who are THE ACTUAL PROBLEM/OFFENDERS.

That make sense to you?

Uwe...isn't an anti-gun German a bit of an oxymoron? (I can say that...my entire family is from Germany/Bavaria

[Dave W]

...

2. "It's almost certain it wasn't used at Sandy Hook, unless you're a dupe who believes the agenda-driven media's change of story ...".

Ok, not even the NRA has yet risen to that claim, but you do? A life without conspiracy theories would be a poorer one, right? Where is your evidence for "almost certain", Dave? Another reputable site like www.gunlaws.com?

I'm not an NRA member nor a visitor to gunlaws.com so no idea what they say.

There are so many inconsistencies in the media's coverage of Sandy Hook that it's hard to know where to start. But law enforcement did report that the semi-automatic was found in Lanza's car and that he had two pistols with him. Then the story was changed a day later. Suddenly. Then the non-stop propaganda crusade against semi-automatics began. Like magic!

In a way it's not much different from the alleged killing of Osama Bin Laden, where almost everything we were initially told was changed, and none of it is believable.

[Granny Gremlin]

OH...and Granny DID make a very good other point as to why U.S. gun control laws will never work....no matter how many more stupid laws they pass. The politicians on the left/Democrats who are the big anti-gun agenda guys and also the same ones who refuse to seal our country's borders. With the insane numbers of illegal weapons that flood into the U.S. across the Mexican border, any gun control laws will never do a thing to stem the problem. It is all just political posturing.

Here are some maps that show the real gun problem in America that politiacians and media refuse to talk about because it would offend the core of the Democratic/left party. It alwasy comes down to votes and staying in power, doesn't it?:

http://www.gunlaws.com/GunshotDemographics.htm

I can no longer tell how serious you are, but just in case I'll carry on somewhat humourously myself.  

That is not my point at all actually, but I suspect you knew that.  Arms trafficking across the Mexico boarder is mostly a problem in the other direction (Mexico doesn't want your weapons either, but we sure all want their drugs; like a lot apparently).  And this doesn't include the weapons dropped in Central/Southern America legally (or at least by the US Goverment's blessing) to alternately fight or help various drug cartels or guerrilla groups over the last few decades.  The fact that US made arms get smuggled back into the US and used in violent crime there is merely poetic justice (not that anyone deserves to be shot).  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smuggling_of_firearms_into_Mexico

"sealing" borders is not actually feasible anyway (how far out to sea are you gonna build that wall exactly.... you know that they know for certain that the Cartels have their own submarines now right? and how far down will the footings go to stop the tunnels).  The way to stop arms trafficking is to stop making so god dang many of them and selling them to anyone you possibly can.

Here's a (very long) list of firearms (not including missiles and artillery and nuclear warheads; Yay GE!) manufacturers in the USA: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Firearms_manufacturers_in_the_United_States

Google/Wiki could only find me a single firearms manufacturer in Mexico.  In fact, if you go through this global list below, it becomes clear rather quickly that the US has well more than it's fair share of gun makers.  Basically, a crowded market so they need to push so hard to make it easy for anyone and everyone to be able to buy as many guns as they want they're told/convinced to by various ingenious/insideous marketing ploys.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_modern_armament_manufacturers

I agree with you on one point though.  All current/past US gun control legislation has been rather stupid, but not for the reasons I suspect you would cite.

[patman]

What I don't understand is why people don't analyze the situation with facts rather than hearsay or anecdote...look at gun homicides per capita in countries with strong gun laws, and look at the homicide rate in the US.  Look at violent crime rates in, say England or Canada versus the US.  Take the US out of it.  Pick a middle eastern country (or any other country where there are an abundance of guns in circulation).

Compare your results.  On a non-judgemental objective basis, what do the facts tell you?  Anecdotes and stories are just crap thrown out there to emotionally charge the issue for people incapable of analyzing the issue.  Look at the facts.

It's the same with national health insurance...check life expectancy in the US versus life expectancy in the UK or Canada or Germany...look at infant mortality.  Look at any other health care statistic. The US usually ends up really low in most of these categories, but number one in per capita dollars spent.  What does this tell you? Ignore the anecdotes about how lousy health care is in Canada or the UK. Anecdotes are crap.

I try to leave emotions out of the analysis. It's the accountant in me.

[uwe]

Accountants can be a helpful lot.

[uwe]

I'm not an NRA member nor a visitor to gunlaws.com so no idea what they say.

There are so many inconsistencies in the media's coverage of Sandy Hook that it's hard to know where to start. But law enforcement did report that the semi-automatic was found in Lanza's car and that he had two pistols with him. Then the story was changed a day later. Suddenly. Then the non-stop propaganda crusade against semi-automatics began. Like magic!

In a way it's not much different from the alleged killing of Osama Bin Laden, where almost everything we were initially told was changed, and none of it is believable.

In the near decade I know you, your insistence on conspiracy explanations has certainly grown!

[uwe]

Uh...no.

Nearly all of the U.S. "gun violence" that the leftwing anti-gun politicians and media play up is done by THEIR OWN CONSTITUENTS -- largely black and hispanic males killing mostly the same in inner city drug/gang/criminal violence. But the left will not even discuss that....because they do not want to lose the votes from that segment of their wonderful voter base.

INSTEAD...they play up the handful of shootings that involve, usually, some deranged/mentally ill white male who finally snaps and shoots a pile of inocent people at a school or shopping mall...usually is some "gun free zone" that is left wide open wiht no protection for the coward to kill in (thanks again to the well-meaning lefty anti-gun crowd maling laws that do not address the actual problem.)  And the liberal anti-gun media plays up these "white shooter" killings to make it look like there is some gigantic "gun problem" and "we need to ban guns"...when, in truth, those killings do not even amount to a decimal point of the total U.S. gun killings.

Plus, their stupid solution is "more gun laws/bans" that only LAW ABIDING CITIZENS WILL FOLLOW...and NOT the criminals or crazies who are THE ACTUAL PROBLEM/OFFENDERS.

That make sense to you?

Uwe...isn't an anti-gun German a bit of an oxymoron? (I can say that...my entire family is from Germany/Bavaria

"Uwe...isn't an anti-gun German a bit of an oxymoron? (I can say that...my entire family is from Germany/Bavaria "

Ever heard that story of the road to Damascus and Saul morphing to Paul? We saw the light in millions of tons of fire bombs courtesy of the RAF and the USAAF raining down on our cities. Teaches you a lesson or two about the charm of weaponry.

And the fact that you are entirely German has me worried!!!  

"Nearly all of the U.S. "gun violence" that the leftwing anti-gun politicians and media play up is done by THEIR OWN CONSTITUENTS -- largely black and hispanic males killing mostly the same in inner city drug/gang/criminal violence. But the left will not even discuss that....because they do not want to lose the votes from that segment of their wonderful voter base."

Jon, this must be conservative satire or what? Are those Republican anti-gun politicians left wingers too? The Republican governors? Your good Mayor Bloomberg, a closet communist? Your division in good and bad is somewhat simplistic. And do you really believe that black and hispanic "drug/gang/criminal violence" aggro-males turn up at the voting booths in droves to makes sure Obama, that raging animal of an uncontrolled, emotional black man, wins? And you really, really believe that if Obama cut down through whatever means on ghetto, gang and drug violence that he would lose a large part of the black and hispanic vote?

Sigh. And I thought you were a lot smarter. You know what: You can be for free buns and guns and not be a member of the KKK



just as much as you can be against free buns and guns without being a member of the American Communist Party.



I know that my American friends have a hunch for delineating good vs evil in no uncertain way (Russia is the enemy, all enemies of Russia are our friends then, booom goes the World Trade Center ..., duh, did we miss something?) but the world is rarely that simple. Especially in NYC.