Madness in Webster NY two first responders shot and killed

[dadagoboi]

Government, the construct of man, is always an easy way to avoid personal responsibility.  Just about every organized government has been happy to mass murder those who don't hold their exact beliefs or possess valuable land or resources.  Or at the least have the hubris to judge them in the State's name and lock them away.  'Re-education'. i.e. change or die, was pretty much the height of 'counseling' by governments for most of the history of man.  Screw 'government' that condones preemptive drone strikes and tells soldiers "The State is on your side."  

Religion, in the hands of man, has done horrible things throughout history.  That doesn't negate the fact that communism, nazism, totalitarianism, colonialism, nationalism, tribalism, the Roman Empire, ethnic cleansing, etc., etc., ad nauseum, have extinguished millions more than organized religions.  Either way, both systems are grossly faulty when misused.  It's not rational to single out one without being honest about the other.  In the end, it's always the people who muck it up.  It's the people who screw it up!

Government and Religion down thru the ages have almost always been two sides of the same coin.  Conservatives in the USA would by and large like to see Christianity be declared the state religion.  I'd be happy to see both government and religion disappear.  60 million Indians were killed by Christian Euro Theocracies by the end of the 16th century.

The recent Yugo genocides were religious. Your knowledge of history seems to be as faith based as your opinions.  Do you think the Roman Empire didn't have a state religion before Catholicism took over and pasted it's feast days on top of theirs (Chrismas/Saturnalia, etc)?  Are you aware of the religious wars fought in Europe after Protestants broke from Catholicism?  The Crusades, Cromwell's persecution and genocide against the Irish and English Catholics, etc ad infinitum.

[gweimer]

Do you think the Roman Empire didn't have a state religion before Catholicism took over and pasted it's feast days on top of theirs (Chrismas/Saturnalia, etc)? 

The holiday we know as Christmas was started by early Christians under the Emperor Constantine, who had converted to Christianity.  It was he who wished to place a celebration in direct opposition to Saturnalia.  Many of the activities are similar - feasting, social gatherings, going from house to house singing, and the giving of presents.  Christmas was an effort to deter Rome from it's more decadent activities, and pull pagans away from their beliefs.  Constantine also called the Council of Nicaea, who instituted the Nicene Creed.

[dadagoboi]

The holiday we know as Christmas was started by early Christians under the Emperor Constantine, who had converted to Christianity.  It was he who wished to place a celebration in direct opposition to Saturnalia.  Many of the activities are similar - feasting, social gatherings, going from house to house singing, and the giving of presents.  Christmas was an effort to deter Rome from it's more decadent activities, and pull pagans away from their beliefs.  Constantine also called the Council of Nicaea, who instituted the Nicene Creed.

Sounds like you had a similar Catholic education to mine.  According to the Brother of the Holy Cross (Go, Irish) who taught me HS religion: More than likely, if Christ was born during a census taking it wouldn't have been in winter.  It was convenient for the Church to replace the 'pagan' Roman holiday of around that time, Saturnalia and also just a few days from another pagan holiday, Winter Solstice.  Easter is Spring Festival time and Halloween is Harvest Festival, other pagan holidays.

Sicily is filled with Catholic churches that were formerly mosques, one of the most notable is Chiesa di San Cataldo, my name saint.  Organized religion is generally about power, monopoly and destroying competitors.

[uwe]

No Catholic in his right mind would argue that Jesus was born in December or anyway near. His birthdate ie the celebrations for it were conveniently placed there to engulf the heathenish year-end festivities that clustered around that time. The Catholic Church, in all its infinite and immaculate wisdom, has always been one thing foremost: smart. And we don't believe in creationism either.

[Dave W]

Let's please steer this away from religion. Thanks.

[dadagoboi]

What I don't understand is why people don't analyze the situation with facts rather than hearsay or anecdote...look at gun homicides per capita in countries with strong gun laws, and look at the homicide rate in the US.  Look at violent crime rates in, say England or Canada versus the US.  Take the US out of it.  Pick a middle eastern country (or any other country where there are an abundance of guns in circulation).

Compare your results.  On a non-judgemental objective basis, what do the facts tell you?  Anecdotes and stories are just crap thrown out there to emotionally charge the issue for people incapable of analyzing the issue.  Look at the facts.

It's the same with national health insurance...check life expectancy in the US versus life expectancy in the UK or Canada or Germany...look at infant mortality.  Look at any other health care statistic. The US usually ends up really low in most of these categories, but number one in per capita dollars spent.  What does this tell you? Ignore the anecdotes about how lousy health care is in Canada or the UK. Anecdotes are crap.

I try to leave emotions out of the analysis. It's the accountant in me.

Thanks for the reality check
 

[Highlander]

Let's please steer this away from religion. Thanks.

Just an old-fashioned pagan laddie here...

[dadagoboi]

Just an old-fashioned pagan laddie here...

Never a card carrying one but the mother of my children is, in part due to growing up in a devout mixed Methodist/RC family.  She had to go to church TWICE every Sunday.

[Denis]

Recovering Catholic myself.

But on topic, I'm hearing now too that Lanza may not have used the Bushmaster in the shootings after all. If he didn't and stuck to using his semi-auto pistols, then it's another incidence of a mass shooter fitting into the category of the most often used weapons by mass shooters. Semi-auto pistols (the "cool" ones like Glocks) are far and away more often used for mass shootings than assault rifles. 1) They are easier to get, 2) easier to conceal, and 3) there's a hell of a lot more of them than there are assault rifles.

While a ban against assault rifles is at least likely if for no other reason than we've had them before, a ban against semi-auto pistols will never happen in the US.

I still think serious action will only take place when there's a mass shooting in the House of Representatives or the Senate. Even the shooting of Gabrielle Giffords and some other people didn't do much to change any gun laws.

[rahock]

Let's please steer this away from religion. Thanks.

Ah , the voice of reason   The only topic more flamable than politics .
Rick

[dadagoboi]

Ah , the voice of reason   The only topic more flamable than politics .
Rick

Then can we talk about legalizing drugs to completely eliminate related gun violence?  The repeal of Prohibition (of alcohol) completely eliminated violence resulting from illegal alcohol sales.

To me a true libertarian believes you should be allowed to do whatever you choose to your own body, alone or with consenting adults, including for money.  I've been a libertarian since 1970, before 'conservatives' started eliminating things they didn't like from their version.  Ron Paul is pretty much my kind of libertarian except for his 'right to life' views.

[Dave W]

Just trying to avoid flammable topics, folks. I had to remove posts from people who were obviously upset.

[dadagoboi]

Just trying to avoid flammable topics, folks. I had to remove posts from people who were obviously upset.

Thanks, Dave.  Really appreciate the hassle you endure.

[mc2NY]

"Uwe...isn't an anti-gun German a bit of an oxymoron? (I can say that...my entire family is from Germany/Bavaria "

And the fact that you are entirely German has me worried!!!  

My grandfather on my mom's side was "The Bavarian Crusher," I'm told a world champion wrestler back around the 1950s/60s. I remember seeing his picture hanging on the wall at the old Madison Square Garden in NYC when I was a little kid. My mom's side are the entertainers....singers, Radio City Rockettes, roller derby chicks...my dad is the military side that my brother takes after. Always made for amusing holiday get togethers...

[Bionic-Joe]

Didn't Adolf confiscate everyone's guns back in WWII??