Gibson got raided again today by the Feds

[dadagoboi]

In the U.S. by and large you get the justice you pay for.  I don't remember seeing any of the Wall Street Biggies getting raided.  Those guys definitely have all their ducks in a row.

...maybe Gibson IS an example along the lines of what Dave has to say, I doubt their representation is up to the Level of Lehman Bros.

[drbassman]

I think getting wood is more important than where you it.    


Uwe's helpful amendment: "than where you put it" you meant to write perhaps?!

The rising laissez faire tendencies of this forum are strictly a matter of personal preference.

[Pilgrim]

I think the US legal system suffers from its overly adverserial nature, the focus on "winning the case" and the fact that great parts of the judicial personnel face elections. A prosecutor shouldn't be judged by how many cases he "loses" or "wins", but by how often he has helped achieve a just result that can live up to scrutiny years later. And our Western system is built on the premise that we rather let 100 culprits go free rather than convict one innocent (wo)man. Once you think that convicting a few innocents is ok just as long as that hikes the share of guilty ones convicted, you're on a downward spiral.    

I haven't read a more accurate statement in years.  I fully agree.

[dadagoboi]

I haven't read a more accurate statement in years.  I fully agree.

Elected or politically appointed judges also have a huge effect on the U.S. judicial system.

[drbassman]

I think getting wood is more important than where you it.    


Uwe's helpful amendment: "than where you put it" you meant to write perhaps?!

The rising laissez faire tendencies of this forum are strictly a matter of personal preference.

You still have to "get" it before you can "put" it anywhere!!!   

[999]

this is as inane as having shipped basses without trussrods.  

I'm rubbing my eyes. How is this company being run? If this was a Clifford Chance client, the involved team would have a lot to answer to. A frigging disaster, no less.

A bit off topic but I have to ask, is this really true? (shipped basses without trussrods)

[Psycho Bass Guy]

This is the best and most clear explanation of what went down I have found.

[dadagoboi]

For grins let's consider Gibson bought 'stolen' wood.  Does that mean they get to keep it because they didn't steal it, didn't know it was stolen and had a forged (not by them) bill of sale to prove it?  At the very least the material would be confiscated and returned to its rightful owner.

I'm referencing 'alleged forged documents' supposedly proving the wood is legal. 

There's a legislator in India who just agreed to end an 11 day hunger strike protesting the widely acknowledged massive corruption in that country's government.  Do we choose to take that government's word over AMERICAN officials who are probably more honest than Indian ones?  You can check the statistics on which governments are the most corrupt, India is close to the top.  Is it possible someone was paid to look the other way when that wood was exported?  I would say, YES.  Is it possible Gibson is innocent of any wrong doing?  Certainly.  It also seems highly possible laws were broken which resulted in Gibson possessing 'stolen property.'

All I'm saying is let's take into account all the middlemen, governments, documents and laws involved before making a judgement.

Henry's spouting about all the people he's hired in the last few years.  Couldn't he hire a few more to actually make the fretboards he's going to put on his "Made in USA" stamped guitars?

[Psycho Bass Guy]

Couldn't he hire a few more to actually make the fretboards he's going to put on his "Made in USA" stamped guitars?

I think that actually may be the issue. From what I understand, the Lacey Act is being used because the fretboards were finished in the US and not India. I'm not defending Gibson, but two federal raids in two years with no charges filed would result in a serious lawsuit from most other industries; there's clearly more  going on than what's being publicly banded about.

That's why I got so pissed about The Tennessean's article; rather than do a little more in-depth investigation, the paper decided that anti-Obama politcal rhetoric in its comments section would generate more interest than the actual story. Seriously; I have ZERO doubts those comments came from employees. Google "Moms Like Me," "Gannett," and "blowjob tips" together sometimes.

[dadagoboi]

Even a completed fretboard is difficult to describe as a finished product, what's its use other than as a non removable component?  It's possible it can't be exported, period, under Indian laws.  I would damn sure narrowly define "product"
in a law meant to protect jobs.

Yeah, journalism is shoddy and shallow these days but it's a pretty good reflection of what Americans want in their media.

[Dave W]

Corruption or not, we don't know what India's laws actually say. All we have is a US Fish & Wildlife interpretation.

And what about all the other guitar makers that offer Indian rosewood fretboards. What about suppliers? I see that Allied Lutherie, Allen Guitars and Luthier's Mercantile all specifically offer Indian rosewood blanks. It doesn't make sense that Gibson would be targeted for this.

[dadagoboi]

It doesn't make sense that Gibson would be targeted for this.

Exactly

[Dave W]

The WSJ has now picked up on it: Guitar Frets: Environmental Enforcement Leaves Musicians in Fear

Note the story about the piano dealer in the Atlanta area. Serious business.

[uwe]

I'll let you know when the Fish and Wildlife Agency guys come over to raid my office demanding documentation for the age of my 20/20 ...

[nofi]

this is so typical of the goverment to put aside more serious concerns for some crap like this. two dozen feds show up at your piano store looking for old ivory? really! gun tottin' lawmen all over gibson's ass. i'm sure there are many layers to this story and everyone of them stinks like rotting fish.