Fender truss rods and what is wrong with them ... (or me!) ...

[dadagoboi]

Commercial kiln drying used to be a much slower process than it is today. I believe it was less likely to 'case harden' wood than modern techniques.

The Wood Handbook ,quote, "Presents properties of wood and wood-based products of particular concern to the architect and engineer."  Basically construction timber.

I believe this is as pertinent to the discussion of plainsawn vs. flatsawn wood, specifically how it relates to warping and cupping.
http://www.utextension.utk.edu/publications/pbfiles/PB1693.pdf

[JazzBassTbird]

First, you're assuming your experiences apply to all Fenders. That's no more valid than if I assumed that no Fender necks ever had problems because I've never had one with a problem (and I bought my first one 49 years ago). Now, if we had a survey of authorized Fender dealers who do their own in-house repairs, and if they reported more Fender necks coming back for warranty problems than other brands, then there would be a known problem.

Fender never used old growth wood or air dried wood. You would have to go back to the 1920s or earlier to find either in large commercial quantities.

AFAIK most repair experts think ski-slope neck is a truss rod issue coming from years of the traditional (Gibson design) truss rod holding the neck fibers in compression for years. It's certainly not limited to Fender or to maple, and to say it didn't appear until the late 60s is just plain wrong.

Flatsawn vs. quartersawn: wood properties aren't subject to debate. You should download the Forest Products Laboratory (USDA) Wood Handbook: Wood As An Engineering Material (link), especially chapters 3, 4 and 5. Wood strength tests are based on the type and direction of force applied, usually in relation to the grain direction, regardless of whether the wood is flatsawn or quartersawn.

No, I'm just saying that I've seen enough Fender bass necks with this problem over the last 37 years to see a patterns. By no means is it only late '60s on Fenders that can exhibit Rising Tongue, or are older basses exempt. However, I have noted more neck problems and QC issues in general on CBS era Fenders, particularly 70s ones. I've found that '50s maple Fender bass necks rarely seem to exhibit warpage issues, although they can be prone to pulled up headstocks due to the large amount of wood scooped out behind the nut in that era. A friens of mine still owns a 1970 Jazz Bass neck with a pronoiunced ski slope...he says it was like that when he first bought it but never bothered to return it, altough it's unplayable. It's still new looking, but useless...Re 1/4 sawn vs. flat sawn, take a 2x4 and put it between 2 chairs. Stand on it with the grain flat and then try it with the grain on end. Which is more flexible? Not a perfect test, but you'll get the idea.

[JazzBassTbird]

"Ski Slope" isn't thought of as a truss rod problem, since the rod has the most effect from the nut to the 7th fret or so, but early Music Man literature boasts of a new improved truss rod design, that IIRC attemps to prevent this.
By the way, I'm not trying to impugn Fender basses in any way. I'm a huge fan of them and own 4 original '60s Jazz Basses, a sunburst slab board 1962 I've owned since 1993, a sunburst 1964 I've owned since '81, and Candy Apple Red and Olympic White '65s. Since 1974, I've owned more Fender basses than I can count. I like Gibsons and Rics as well, but at the end of the day There Are Fender Basses And There Are Other Basses...

However, I do know that '50s and '60s Fenders are far superior to ones from the late '60s on. I've just seen too many bad '70s Fenders and too many incredible Pre-CBS ones to not know that to be the truth. There are exceptions but in general, that has been my experience.

[Dave W]

Commercial kiln drying used to be a much slower process than it is today. I believe it was less likely to 'case harden' wood than modern techniques.

The Wood Handbook ,quote, "Presents properties of wood and wood-based products of particular concern to the architect and engineer."  Basically construction timber.

I believe this is as pertinent to the discussion of plainsawn vs. flatsawn wood, specifically how it relates to warping and cupping.
http://www.utextension.utk.edu/publications/pbfiles/PB1693.pdf

True, the Wood Handbook is about all woods used in engineering and architecture. But the properties don't change if you use them for guitarmaking.

That's a good description of the differences, an expansion of what's in the Wood Handbook.

[Dave W]

Re 1/4 sawn vs. flat sawn, take a 2x4 and put it between 2 chairs. Stand on it with the grain flat and then try it with the grain on end. Which is more flexible? Not a perfect test, but you'll get the idea.

That has nothing to do with flatsawn vs. quartersawn. No matter what you may read on guitar forums, turning a flatsawn board on end does not make it quartersawn. You can't change the way it was cut from a tree. It's still a flatsawn board on edge.

And the reason it's stiffer is because any beam in 2x4 orientation (deeper than wide) is stiffer than a 4x2 beam when the load comes from above. The same thing would happen if you did the same test using a quartersawn 2x4.

A guitar neck doesn't have that kind of load anyway. It's an overhanging beam with force applied at the ends.

Re the other stuff, we're just going in circles. I've personally seen way more older guitars with rising tongue than newer. The professional repairman who I respect most thinks that the truss rod design is most responsible.

[uwe]

"I've personally seen way more older guitars with rising tongue than newer. The professional repairman who I respect most thinks that the truss rod design is most responsible."

+1 My luthier says so too.

[JazzBassTbird]

"I've personally seen way more older guitars with rising tongue than newer. The professional repairman who I respect most thinks that the truss rod design is most responsible."

+1 My luthier says so too.

I have seen more Rising Tongue on older (as in late '60s-'70s) than newer...as I mentioned, I haven't seen it as much on '50s-mid '60s guitars, but I have seen some.
What IS more prevalent on newer guitars as I was saying, is bowed necks...with way too much relief and super tight or even maxed out truss rods. The '50s-'60s Fenders I've owned and currently own require very little tension on the truss rods to get the necks where they should be.

[mc2NY]

While I DO have some Fender basses, I admit that I find the body end truss adjustment a royal pain in the ass and a silly design. But I also can say that I've never had to tweak any of them four times a year. I have encountered a stiff adjustment nut on occasion and even one neck that was maxed out on the adjustment but still playable...but most necks have been OK.

Uwe....could it be the Fenders that enter your "Casa De Gibson" become SO immediately terrified and intimidated upon seeing the mass of Gibsons that they simply freeze like deers in a headlight, becoming unable to be adjusted?
Or maybe they are just faking it, so you take them back to the store to get away from the gang of Gibbys?
Sounds like intimidation.

[Pilgrim]

Every Fender I have has a nice stable neck including the Squier Bronco.  My '63 has had one adjustment in 30+ years.  My 2000 MIM Jazz has never needed an adjustment.

Maybe my basses are old and tired.  Yes, like Steve Martin in The Jerk, I need nice FRESH basses!

[uwe]

You guys just live in more humid climates than I do, I admire you. (When I lived in Africa, the 90% humidity never bothered me and these days it would even be good for myy allergic asthma!)

[Pilgrim]

You gus just live in more humid climates than I do, I admire you. (When I lived in Africa, the 90% humidity never bothered me and these days it would even be good for myy allergic asthma!)t

I think it's lack of humidity.  I live at 5,000 feet in Colorado and humiditt runs low all year.

[exiledarchangel]

You gus just live in more humid climates than I do, I admire you. (When I lived in Africa, the 90% humidity never bothered me and these days it would even be good for myy allergic asthma!)

I thought Deutchland was kinda "wet" country, falsch?

[uwe]

We have enough rain in summer, but the last few winters have been very dry and cold. That said, rain has been scarce this spring so far too and nature is showing it too.

[patman]

This is totally unscientific but...I have only had the ski slope effect on Jazzes...I have never thought of it as a CBS, etc problem...I even had a Japanese jazz with it. I always thought it was peculiar to the jazz bass.  Never had a Precision with the problem.

I do have a precision with the "rubber neck" problem.  I just feed it more washers.

[JazzBassTbird]

This is totally unscientific but...I have only had the ski slope effect on Jazzes...I have never thought of it as a CBS, etc problem...I even had a Japanese jazz with it. I always thought it was peculiar to the jazz bass.  Never had a Precision with the problem.

I do have a precision with the "rubber neck" problem.  I just feed it more washers.

I've seen it on just as many P-basses as J-basses. Doesn't make sense since P and J necks only differ in width at the nut...by the time it tapers to the "ski slope" area, they're about the same.

Yeah, I've had rubber neck basses, Fenders AND Gibsons. They usually aren't the best sounding instruments due to the neck's unstiffness.
If you have to keep feeding that neck washers, it's a problem neck. Eventually it'll get to the point where it's not going to work any more.

BTW, I've never been able to find washers with an outside diameter and hole that fits for this purpose, the diameter hole that would fit the truss rod isn't the hole that comes with that size washer. It's better to make a correct size spacer out of brass rather than stacks of 1/32" thick washers anyway.