Goodbye kilometer signs

[uwe]

I feel like a missionary in a maneater village now with an invite "we'd like to have you over for dinner".

[rahock]

There are only two things that keep me from traveling to Europe. My lacking knowledge of the metric system and the fact that I don't speak European
Rick

[Freuds_Cat]

Aww man I've tried so hard to stay out of this one. 

It seems that us Australians are the only ones currently of this "era" that have actually gone through the full conversion from one system to the other. Bob That 68 Monaro uses mostly 9/16 bolts to hold it together. I grew up knowing all the sizes and being able to just look at a nut and tell what size it was. The 2001 Monaro is all metric. Most of my life we have had to deal with both systems here in Oz.

With this in mind I feel me and my fellow countrymen probably have the most objective perspective on the matter.

A quart is roughly a litre (yes we spell it different to you). To a person buying that amount of milk the difference is in name only. In case like that who really cares what its called.

When we buy meat or cheese for instance it is nice being able to say I would like 300grams of ham or 200g of ham because guess what I might not want just a half or quarter pound.

When working in the building industry (I was a stone mason for a part of my life) Even the English (and I worked on the Tokyo bank and other fine buildings in London) agree that Metric is just so much easier and less prone to mistakes due to mathematical error. I never found a single Pom that was keen to go back to using the imperial system on a building site in 3 years there. Even though they wanted to keep miles so much that they deemed the change to Kms un-British.

My height is still 6 feet even though I without a shadow of a doubt find metric easier to use. My weight however is 96kgs because trying to use Stone and pounds is just so messy by comparison.  Here people who drive 5 litre  Holdens are proud of the fact that it is 5L. One of our most famous raceing/production cars (made famous by Peter Brock winning so much in it) is the Holden SLR 5000 Torana. One guess what the 5000 stands for. Due to things like this it has gone into our cultural identity more and more over the years.
We still refer to these motors as both 308's and 5Litres.

When the fat lady has all but been put to bed, having dealt with and lived with both systems I do prefer metric. Its just easier to use.  Sorry guys but all else is just denial IMHO.

[uwe]

"Sorry guys but all else is just denial IMHO."






Well done, Aussie boy, here is your reward, thirty pieces of shiny chrome in imperial size! It's a gift, it's a gift, it's a gift nothing more ...

[eb2]

I prefer to ask for a pound or half a pound of deli meat.  I have to say that ordering 300gr (pretty much half a pound with the over) is proof of the pointless nature of metric.  Most people buy a pound or half a pound of sliced deli meat to keep in the house.  Ordering it in the hundreds of grams is neither more convenient or sensible, and has nothing in the nature of how metric is superior.  It begs one to go into the market and ask for 12gr of baked ham.  Or 70gr.  That is rediculous, of course.  No one would ask for such a small amount, as grams are a terrible unit for selling food.  But the lb, which evolved as a unit for people like butchers, is fine.

As to the 9/16" wrench, this is also an instance of where imperial can be at first glance confusing, but, as NASA can attest, be made to work like metric if needed.  Most people would never need one, and would never know or care about this.  People who do this for a living would, like lab workers who function well with the micro-measurements that are exclusively metric.  A good mechanic would know that size bolt, or the cars that use them.  The other 99% of the world wouldn't, or would use an adjustable wrench/spanner and be fine.  

Simillar to the bushel concept: most people don't know or care about different bushels for apples or wheat.  This is pointed to as an area where metric makes more sense.  But the apple orchard knows, and the grain farmer know there is a difference.  Regular people don't.  The old lady next door buys neither apples nor wheat by the bushel. Or the liter.  It has no relationship to daily usage.  And converting wholesale level processing to metric provides no benefit to the producer or distributor, or yield any "easy" concept to counting on ones fingers.

These are specialized areas, so out of the mainstream, that an argument could be made that is is perhaps "easier" to create an entirely new system that would only be used in those fields, and equally arbitrary in nature.

I keep hearing the argument that it is better because people got used to it, and that it was mandated, and you can use it.  As Socrates would recognize halfway to hemlock's-ville, this is not any argument for its supposed superiority over imperial in daily usage: it sidesteps the issue entirely.  It is not a superior system for daily usage.

[lowend1]

When we buy meat or cheese for instance it is nice being able to say I would like 300grams of ham or 200g of ham because guess what I might not want just a half or quarter pound.

Take Freud's comments with a grain of salt - the toilets flush backwards there, y'know
I routinely see people order 1/8lb or even 1/3lb at the deli. Some even just say "give me 5 slices of ham, thin please". I, for one don't get all knotted up about precise measurements of luncheon meats.

Automotive powerplants sound so much cooler in CID - and cool is very important
426 Hemi
455 Super Duty
440 Six Pack
Boss 302 / 351
428 Cobra Jet
400 Ram Air
Rocket 350

We haven't even discussed breast sizes and penis length yet

[uwe]

I now know why it always says "The Imperial Knights of the Ku Klux Klan"! And those crosses they burnt were of course metric. 

To quote Joey Ramone: The KKK took my meter away ...




But to enhance the discussion and keeping in mind that this is a forum dedicated to scientific truth:

"Metrics in America

The cost to the US for not being on the metric system is no doubt high. Just last year, a Martian probe was destroyed because some of its navigational data was in feet, and some was in meters. All exported goods have to be labeled in metrics or they do not sell. We are slowly getting our act together. Almost all packaged goods have both the standard and metric measures on their label. The can of Root Beer I am drinking is labeled 12 FL OZ (355 mL).

In truth, the US is using the metric system extensively, just not totally. Doctors do all measures in metrics especially distributing medicine in cubic centimeters. Virtually all scientists in the US use metric measures exclusively. Track and field events have dropped yards and miles all together. I remember when running the mile in under four minutes was a big deal, now they do not run the mile anymore it is the 1600 meter event.

All new car speedometers are in both KPH and MPH, and many recent cars have KPH as the dominant measure. Ironically, speed limit signs are almost exclusively MPH, even on highways where distances are measured in kilometers. Here in Arizona, Highway 19 from Tucson to Nogales is marked in Kilometers. I used to live along this highway, and drove 14 km to work everyday, it is not difficult to adjust if everything is marked that way, yet I was annoyed that the speed limit was posted as 65 instead of 105 KPH. There is not a single KPH sign on the entire 100km stretch of highway.

In other respects, we have actually gone backwards. During the late 70's early 80's, there was a major effort to move metric. Weather forecasts would show both Fahrenheit and Celsius measures of temperature. Then broadcasters decided there were too many numbers being reported, people got overloaded, so they dropped all the Celsius numbers. I think the real reason was that it made the weather report shorter, thus giving more time for commercials.

The Metrics killer: The Decimal Inch

Manufacturing and  some engineering disciplines have abandoned traditional measures as well, but not in favor of metrics. They have discovered an even better system of measure called the decimal inch. It has been discovered that the smallest distance of separation visible to the unaided eye is 0.01 inches, or 0.26 mm. What this means is that being accurate to within a hundredth of an inch is better than being within a millimeter. Four times better as a matter of fact. The only way metrics can be better is if rulers used half and quarter millimeters, but adding fractions defeats the whole purpose of decimal measurement. So now manufacturing and engineering have embraced the decimal inch, a standard inch divided into tenths and hundredths. This has set off a chain reaction, if manufacturing does not have to convert to metrics, why should we?

Top 10 reasons we should convert to the Metric System (with apologies to David Letterman)

10. People will finally understand my joke about driving attoparsecs per nanocenturies.
9. Gas will seem cheaper at 50 cents a liter.
8. Being 22 kilos overweight does not sound as bad as 50 lbs.
7. Defense will be easier if the offense has to drive 10 meters for a first down.
6. Arizona summers will not seem as bad when its only 40 degrees outside.
5. Its not "metric", its "Digital"!
4. Imagine all the exciting math you will do converting your favorite recipes to milliliters.
3. Less fractions to deal with like, "Do I need a five eighths socket or a nine sixteenths to loosen this nut?"
2. The boy band 98º will not be as popular calling themselves 36.7º.
1. Half a liter is more than a pint, which means, MORE BEER FOR EVERYBODY!

Its not metrics people are afraid of, it is the conversion.

I do not have to spend time writing why the metric system is superior to standard units. Anybody who has been schooled in both understands the advantages of metric units. Not only is metric measure easier, it is universally accepted everywhere, except in the United States.

So why do we avoid it? It is not because we are afraid of using the metric system, it is because we are afraid of the whole conversion process. In other words, we are afraid of a lot of math that goes along with the converting. People are not going to convert recipes to metric measures as I pointed out above. Land division has been done in acres and square miles for centuries now, and because all of the property is divided this way it will not change anytime soon. Traditional measures will be with us forever in some form or another, which means converting back and forth will be with us forever.

Converting to the metric system can only happen a little at a time, and one step at a time. I would start by dropping miles for kilometers on all US highways. Let's use that KM/H dial on our car. If kilometers catch on, meters instead of yards, and centimeters instead of inches will follow (except where the decimal inch rules). Once distances are metric, we can start working on liquid measures. We already buy 2 liter bottles of soda, everything else is easy. Weight will be tough, people are used to pounds. Same goes for Celsius temperatures. Because temperature measurement is not tied closely with other metric measures, it will take at least another decade or two to get rid of Fahrenheit.

Britain went to the Metric system officially in 1975, yet the old traditional measures are still a part of daily life in Britain today. I suspect that is how it will be in the US as well."

[Dave W]

Little Anthony & the Metrics just wouldn't sound right.

[uwe]

Yeah, but would "Lovely Rita, foot maid"?



But if things like that are a concern to you, Dave, we could create a special law making the use of "National Meterball League" for the NFL optional. For a transitional time only, of course.

[Pilgrim]

I have both metric and SAE tools, and I WISH that GM had decided some time ago to use fasteners of one type or another.  Dang cars require constant swapping back and forth.

Grumble grumble, mutiny mutiny.

[uwe]

Gibson is no exception. Metric and imperial side by side ... Stevie Wonder and Macca could write a song about it.

[eb2]

Oh, dang.  I thought I would not have to tackle more nonsense, but I do.  And lifted stuff yet?  If only I hadn't been reading this hogwash for the last 15 years, but sadly you'll all have to deal now.  For brevity, I will tackle but two, as many of the other points were addressed earlier anyway.

1: Just last year, a Martian probe was destroyed because some of its navigational data was in feet, and some was in meters.
Well, now it is about twelve years ago, but the example is wonderful both in what it suggests and the fire-storm that erupted shortly after and died even quicker. The probe was destroyed because of two separate data feeds, but the assumption was that the thing plowed into Mars The Martian's backyard because of the imperial data, and that imperial is bad somehow.  The disturbing reaction then was we should all stop using imperial in favor of metric so that all those other Mars probes would not die.  Or that we would have gotten there sooner using metric.  Like all those other countries that have space programs that don't hitch hike on NASA vehicles and do stuff like this.  The glowing truth that never got mentioned is that you can make, launch and land a interplanetary vessel using..IMPERIAL.  You don't need metrics at all, in fact my argument - irrefutable and equally valid as the reverse - is that the thing crashed because of metric units.

2: All exported goods have to be labeled in metrics or they do not sell.
Again, this is ancient trade wars jive from the 70s.  We mill board feet of lumber, and it goes overseas.  Same as from Canada.  You can express any measurement of wholesale imported goods in metric, or even old Russian if you wish.  They sell.  They always did, and they always will.  No country imports US domestic labeled individual products unless they are purchased as salvage.  Same for the US, where by law US Consumer info labeling must be placed on the can of beans, or bags of rogenbrot. And sometimes KitKats from the UK where the chocolate is BETTER.

Again, for scientific and bio-med, the measuring of particulate sizes lends itself to the small-minded nature of metrics.  For daily usage, or commerce, the premise that it is better, easier, or we -the US - would benefit in any way from switching is false.  I tend to be one of a small number of people who argue, and have argued, with the assumption that is seldom if ever challenged.

[uwe]

It sure seems to mean something to him! 

Find the right subject, and the old badger will actually leave the mound ... 

[tom grossheider]

I do like driving in KM/H, it seems so much faster..... 

[Freuds_Cat]

 No one would ask for such a small amount, as grams are a terrible unit for selling food.  But the lb, which evolved as a unit for people like butchers, is fine.

I've had to do both in 2 different countries. In my experience its makes no difference and I personally find having the nice clean numbers of 100, 200 (or 250 which is of course a quarter of a Kilo  ) ) or a half kilo actually more flexible than being locked in to JUST quarters halves and  a pound. I mean asking for 7/16ths of a pound of bacon now that is absurdity. Whereas asking for 300gms is simple to understand. I dont particularly care or wish to necessarily argue about which system is better from a semantics point of view. Just what has been easier in my experience living with both systems for most of my life.


For what its worth imported consumables cannot be sold in Australia without metric weight being displayed. This is usually done on American goods with the use of a sticker which is applied over the original weight.