I'm brainstorming an attempt to work out some issues on an ailing Ric that I recently adopted, and was hoping to get feedback on some aspects of the repair – and if nothing else share some pics of bass guts!
This bass has an issue that some of these seem to exhibit, where the neck bows inward and breaks away from the body wings, leaving cracks in the finish and a neck like a whammy-bar! ;D
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k125/0chromium0/forums/rickenbacker/DSCF0029_zpsebb0e57a.jpg)
The cracks on this one extend roughly 5cm into the body on the bass side (and 4cm on the treble), and this butts right up against that long, narrow pole-piece route seen in the pic below. That is the deepest part of the neck pickup's swimming pool, and leaves only 1cm thick of wood remaining in the neck structure there:
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k125/0chromium0/forums/rickenbacker/0104132130_zps41220292.jpg)
This is the place where the bass wants to fold in on itself under tension, and I'm planning to reinforce this whole area in an effort to get it useable. A member on RR forum had shared a photo of how he usually fills this swimming pool route with a maple insert, makes a more deliberate route for the pickup, and a couple channels for the truss rods. This seems like a good idea, and I've bought some maple in order to attempt it. The pickup doesn't need a very big route afterall, and that deep pole-piece route could be roughly 6mm more shallow (and quite a bit narrower):
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k125/0chromium0/forums/rickenbacker/0104132126_zpsa5a6456d.jpg)
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k125/0chromium0/forums/rickenbacker/0110132132_zps84e44725.jpg)
My questions have less to do with that, and more with finding a tactic to use in repairing the neck and body seams.
Is there any good way to work some glue into those seams without completely removing the body wings? I'd like to do that when that swimming-pool insert gets glued in. That way the body+neck pieces will be properly aligned again and the glue will set and bond those cracked areas back together.
I was thinking that maybe a syringe could be used to inject glue into the seams from the top/inside(?) The problem is that the seams are tight and I'm not sure how I'd pull that off. Just wondering if anyone here has advice?
Well, getting glue into those tight seams is almost impossible without opening them up somehow. Once you do that, you'd have to repair the finish in that area as well. I had a similar hairline crack issue with my EB-3, but it has been stripped already, so widening the seam with a thin fret saw worked well and let me repair the crack by inserting a piece of maple veneer and glue inside. Can't figure out how you'd do this without hurting the finish.
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/drbassman/72%20EB-3L/100_3186.jpg)
Repairing the delamination is tricky. I saw a similar situation on a Fireglo v63. It took a very experienced luthier a couple of trials, and in the end wooden dowels had to be inserted to keep the body wings attached to the neck-thru part when the strings were tuned to pitch. And that was a 4-string bass. Glue was injected, but the repaired seams are visible through the Fireglo - I understand that with FG it is impossible not to leave some marks. But it's only visible on the back side, because in the front you have the pickguard covering that area.
Remember that the finish is conversion varnish, which further complicates things.
With an 8-stringer, I would try to design something significantly stronger than glue. You know that many S/8's have developed ski-slope necks even with the body wings firmly attached. So here you will have to be creative.
Reinforcing the weak area at the pickup route is probably a very smart thing to do. This is the spot where so many Rics want to fold in half. It's Ric's equivalent to Gibson's T-Bird neck volute...
Also, if button-top pickups are shallower than toasters, maybe you should use one.
The problem is the entire routing design is crap for anything beyond 4 strings. Ric clearly didn't know what it was doing here. No big surprise.
I forgot to mention that my fix for the rout side would be to fill as much of the rout as I could with a solid maple block, as you suggested, with channels for the rods. Maybe even a rod through the inside blocks into the wings. Strictly from the inside, not visible from the outside.
Thanks Bill and Ilan.
With regard to "opening up" those seams, one thought I had was to drill a few very fine pilot holes into the seam, and then insert a syringe and attempt to force glue in there that way. Any thoughts as to whether that would be viable, or just weaken it further?
I've read about the recommendation to dowel the wings to the neck in the context of full wing removal and refinish of the bass. What about after the reinforcement is installed - doweling up there in that space by the fingerboard, between the reinforcement and the body wings? I could drill in at an angle and run a dowel in both sides.
Again, I'm just brainstorming here. I obviously don't want to bugger this bass up, but I'm also not striving for an undetectable repair (i.e. I don't mind just drop filling and buffing out the finish repair areas when/if it proves stable). I am in it at a price where I could send it to someone very experienced to do this repair, but then again if I can gain some experience in this space then I'd love to try.
Your idea of considering a button-top is a good one, Ilan. I just recently had my '78 apart and noticed it was more shallow:
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k125/0chromium0/ebay/1978_Rickenbacker_4001/DSCF0016_zps797d98eb.jpg)
Quote from: drbassman on January 11, 2013, 09:20:22 AM
I forgot to mention that my fix for the rout side would be to fill as much of the rout as I could with a solid maple block, as you suggested, with channels for the rods. Maybe even a rod through the inside blocks into the wings. Strictly from the inside, not visible from the outside.
Quote from: chromium on January 11, 2013, 09:38:38 AMI've read about the recommendation to dowel the wings to the neck in the context of full wing removal and refinish of the bass. What about after the reinforcement is installed - doweling up there in that space by the fingerboard, between the reinforcement and the body wings? I could drill in at an angle and run a dowel in both sides.
Sounds like you're suggesting the same thing there, right?
Quote from: ilan on January 11, 2013, 07:47:47 AM
You know that many S/8's have developed ski-slope necks even with the body wings firmly attached. So here you will have to be creative.
True. One possible saving grace on this bass is that the neck relief seems perfect. I only tuned it to pitch for a few hours, but it was very playable, and relief stayed exactly where I would have it if I were setting up the bass myself. The rods both work and have plenty of adjustment left in them. I was prepared to have to deal with that too. Worst part (besides the issue above) was the nut, but I can make a nice replacement for that.
I got this one from Ishibashi, and thier caption read something like "major faulting in neck, we do not recommend this bass". ;D I made them an offer on it assuming I'd have to tackle truss rod replacement too, and possibly worse.
If there is good news in all of this, it would be that the bass is stunning overall! The figuring in the wings is really pretty, and the bass looks to have hardly even been used (likely due to the structural issue). I also loved the way it felt and sounded during that brief opportunity to play it. It's very light and comfortable (my Ibanez 8 weighs 6.1kg by comparison!), and I actually kind of liked the reverse string courses - made it nice and easy to play fingerstyle, and so I might have to run it that way for a while. (I'm still trying to better myself as a pick player...)
Here are some shots of the rest of it:
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k125/0chromium0/forums/rickenbacker/DSCF0028_zpsa3e3a835.jpg)
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k125/0chromium0/forums/rickenbacker/DSCF0009_zps9ef9ac53.jpg)
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k125/0chromium0/forums/rickenbacker/DSCF0019_zps2aaec4da.jpg)
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k125/0chromium0/forums/rickenbacker/0103131333_zpsa55ab1df.jpg)
Just sharing some progress pics. No idea how well this will turn out, but it won't be for a lack of trying!
Routed a spot for the toaster:
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k125/0chromium0/forums/rickenbacker/0114132003_zpsd8fc83c4.jpg)
Only took out a minimal amount of wood. I wanted to leave as much structure there as possible to reinforce the neck. I used the drill press to make way for the pole pieces, instead of making a huge route like Ric did:
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k125/0chromium0/forums/rickenbacker/0114132004_zps2d0b39e5.jpg)
Cut out the maple reinforcement pieces on a scroll saw, and got the rough shaping done:
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k125/0chromium0/forums/rickenbacker/0117132125a_zps16a0f581.jpg)
I built a makeshift Ric "torture rack" to stretch the neck back into position:
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k125/0chromium0/forums/rickenbacker/0119131453_zps579b7aed.jpg)
I used a couple of ratcheting nylon tie-down straps around the "workbench". One anchors the body firmly to the table, and a 1" PVC pipe (left over from working on my lawn drip system) acts as a fulcrum point. Its gorilla-taped to the table, and covered in towels so I don't mar the body. I then ratcheted down the headstock strap until the neck angle was just slightly beyond where it should sit. The idea is that I'll do the final shaping of the reinforcement pieces by hand and get the fit nice and snug, route channels for the truss rods, glue the reinforcements in, and then release a bit of tension on the headstock so everything snugs up and the neck and wings align evenly.
Still working out the strategy for repairing the wing delamination, but I'm thinking of drilling a couple tiny pilot holes, and then using a syringe to force glue into the seam. I may try and use another tie down strap around the horns to (very very carefully) apply enough pressure to open the seam a bit - mimicing what I can do by hand. The mechanical fit seems good, and so my hope is that I can get the glue pushed in there and clamp it while everything is drying. Once dry, I'll look into doweling it.
I welcome any feedback you all might have!
Beautiful work!
Very nice! I've never seen a channel route like that on a Ric before. Is that exclusive to the 8 string basses?
Quote from: chromium on January 11, 2013, 09:38:38 AM
Thanks Bill and Ilan.
With regard to "opening up" those seams, one thought I had was to drill a few very fine pilot holes into the seam, and then insert a syringe and attempt to force glue in there that way. Any thoughts as to whether that would be viable, or just weaken it further?
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k125/0chromium0/ebay/1978_Rickenbacker_4001/DSCF0016_zps797d98eb.jpg)
I was thinking along the same lines. But my concern would be could I force the glue into the entire area? The glue would have to be thin enough to flow but strong enough to hold - would thinned carpenters glue hold? What about a slow setting CA? I would be tempted to "crack" some boards and test several glues as well as procedures to see how every thing would work and hold.
Quote from: Lightyear on January 20, 2013, 11:42:51 AM
I was thinking along the same lines. But my concern would be could I force the glue into the entire area? The glue would have to be thin enough to flow but strong enough to hold - would thinned
I've been using Titebond original. I was reading on their site that it can be thinned by up to 5% (using water) without losing bond strength. Any experience with that? I might give it a shot in hopes that it will flow better. I think it's still gonna be tough to get any in there. :-\
I got the oval pole piece area reinforcement shaped and glued in, and I'm just finishing the truss rod channels on the swimming pool plug now. Got a nice snug fit on that one too. I'll attempt to glue the wings at the same time I install that piece, and use my stretching apparatus to keep everything lined up while the glue sets.
Should have some more pics later...
Completed the rest of my original post as I screwed up the first time and didn't catch it. :-[
As for thinning Titebond 5% I'm not sure if that would be thin enough to flow into all areas - I would certainly test it first.
Quote from: Lightyear on January 20, 2013, 05:03:26 PM
Completed the rest of my original post as I screwed up the first time and didn't catch it. :-[
As for thinning Titebond 5% I'm not sure if that would be thin enough to flow into all areas - I would certainly test it first.
I would be more tempted to try thin CA glue (not the reg harware store stuff) ot hot hide glue via your syringe than thinning titebond.
Quote from: Hörnisse on January 19, 2013, 06:38:55 PM
Very nice! I've never seen a channel route like that on a Ric before. Is that exclusive to the 8 string basses?
Not certain, but I was speculating that the normal 4003 routes look like the one in that pic of my MG 4001. I think it's the extra route for the toaster polepieces that causes problems on these s8 basses. Maybe the tension of 4 strings works ok with that routing scheme (on the v63, c64, etc..)?
Quote from: Lightyear on January 20, 2013, 11:42:51 AM
I was thinking along the same lines. But my concern would be could I force the glue into the entire area? The glue would have to be thin enough to flow but strong enough to hold - would thinned carpenters glue hold? What about a slow setting CA? I would be tempted to "crack" some boards and test several glues as well as procedures to see how every thing would work and hold.
Thanks - that's a great idea! I have some surplus of that maple that I could break, gently clamp, and test the drill/syringe method with the different glues.
Quote from: Rob on January 20, 2013, 06:12:21 PM
I would be more tempted to try thin CA glue (not the reg harware store stuff) ot hot hide glue via your syringe than thinning titebond.
Yeah I was reading that you can put the hide glue container in hot water and heat it to improve flow. I'll probably try that, the reduced Titebond, and the CA on some purposely-broken maple and compare the results.
Thanks guys!
There is one on Ebay that has the same looking route. Seems like a bad design to handle the extra pressure of those strings. I'm looking forward to seeing how yours turns out.
(http://i46.tinypic.com/ajtfrm.jpg)
I have used the thin CA from Stew Mac for cracks and it has worked for me so for. Had forgotten about it! If you can apply it from within the rout, all the better. Be careful if use use thin CA. It really does run well in tight cracks and you wouldn't want it running all over the finish if you use too much. Been there, done that.
Quote from: drbassman on January 21, 2013, 06:52:01 AM
I have used the thin CA from Stew Mac for cracks and it has worked for me so for. Had forgotten about it! If you can apply it from within the rout, all the better. Be careful if use use thin CA. It really does run well in tight cracks and you wouldn't want it running all over the finish if you use too much. Been there, done that.
AND don't go nuts trying to fill it all at once. (It can be coming out another orifice) I make hide glue in a small jar and keep it in a miniture crock pot like they use for scents. Keep a thermometer in there with it so it dosen't overheat and you are good to go.
Rob Francis
Just ordered some thin CA glue from Stew-mac. I'll experiment with that when it gets here. It might be the best bet if it will flow well in the seams, and the fast cure time should be ok since I have the wing+neck alignment really close now after installing that pole piece route plug. That neck structure there feels a lot more rigid.
Here are some pics of the latest...
I removed the varnish, and plugged that huge pole piece route:
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k125/0chromium0/forums/rickenbacker/0121132148_zps216c4e84.jpg)
Got the swimming pool plug shaped, fitted, and some channels cut for the truss rods:
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k125/0chromium0/forums/rickenbacker/0121132149b_zps13450605.jpg)
Checking the fit with the toaster and pickguard:
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k125/0chromium0/forums/rickenbacker/0121132150_zpsf61c4ff9.jpg)
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k125/0chromium0/forums/rickenbacker/0121132150a_zps74ee4a55.jpg)
Nicely done! I would think your efforts will help stabalize the neck. I hope it works!
Just watch that thin CA, just a little, in steps, is best.
Quote from: chromium on January 21, 2013, 11:19:21 PM
Got the swimming pool plug shaped, fitted, and some channels cut for the truss rods:
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k125/0chromium0/forums/rickenbacker/0121132149b_zps13450605.jpg)
That is absolutely lovely work!! Nicely visualized and beautifully executed. Seeing it, I finally understand the approach you have been describing.
Hey thanks! I've made no shortage of mistakes along the way- just glad that I haven't had to to exercise any complete "do-overs" yet :)
That little gap between the swimming pool block and neck bothers me. I want it to be as snug as possible there before I glue it in, and so I'm gonna slice a thin piece of maple, veneer it, and reshape that section for a tighter fit. Other than that, I'm hopeful this all works out!
Thanks Bill and Rob for the heads-up on the thin CA. I'll watch carefully for any leaks, and I'll probably mask the rest of the body back there when I'm injecting it - just to help mitigate risk of a potential mess.
I shouldn't even be thinking about this yet, but speaking of finish repair... I already have some amber, gibson-style trans cherry, and clear nitro lacquer. I know that I'm dealing with conversion varnish here, but (pending a compatibility test in one of the body cavities) would you all advise for or against the use of the nitro for touching up the damage? (planning to drop fill, cut and buff it out). Hate to have to invest in more finish that will largely sit unused - especially since I'm just drop filling and that's sure to be visible/detectable... but I also want to do as good a job as I possibly can. ???
Beautiful work! Even your maple fill block is beautiful!
C'mon, you couldn't get the grain to match up any better than that?!? ;D ;)
Just kiddin', really nice work! My compliments.
In case anyone is looking for thin CA glue and you don't want the hassle of mail -ordering, the Permatex Super Glue in the tiny .10 oz. tube is also very thin (like water). I bought in the 4-pack card, I think from Walmart (may have been from an auto parts store though). For thicker glue, the Loctite Super Glue Gel works well.
Quote from: FrankieTbird on January 22, 2013, 01:35:13 PM
C'mon, you couldn't get the grain to match up any better than that?!? ;D ;)
Haha now you're just messin' with my OCD!
But now that you mention it.... ;D
Very nice work, Joe...
Really nice work there.
Nicely done!
If you have just a couple of very small areas to repair the finish on you can use CA glue to spot fill - depending on the viscosity it will self level to a certain degree. You can then sand/buff/polish the spot repair to blend. If you search on the ReRanch forum there is lots of talk of the "Super Glue" ding repair. Might work.
Looks like a great idea, and great execution. Thanks for posting!
I use veneer to fill in cracks and errors in my joining all the time. Works great! Looking good.
Thanks again for all the advice!
Here are some progress pics...
Injecting thin CA into the seams:
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k125/0chromium0/forums/rickenbacker/0128131412_zps8b1b746f.jpg)
Graft installed using Titebond (...attempting to blend in :) )
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k125/0chromium0/forums/rickenbacker/0128131625a_zps84f1f6d2.jpg)
Drying, with tension applied to the neck:
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k125/0chromium0/forums/rickenbacker/0128131556a_zps2363bbe3.jpg)
Amidst re-assembly:
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k125/0chromium0/forums/rickenbacker/0128131954b_zps64072197.jpg)
Back under tension:
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k125/0chromium0/forums/rickenbacker/0128132130a_zpsee4bfe6a.jpg)
So far so good. No popping noises yet! I'll have to work on the setup next (nut, etc...), but I got it roughed in and it plays well. Neck/rods seem to be in good shape, and so hopefully the worst is over.
If it proves to be stable I'll drop fill the finish cracks next.
SWEET!
Very nice work, Joe. I sure hope it holds after all your effort.
Great looking bass man! ;)
(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/550934_4461006721793_489940821_n.jpg)
Really nice work!
Good job. Hope the bass remains stable from now.
Fantastic effort, looks great to! I hope it holds.
Looks great! Good luck, I hope all stays put for you!
Tom, let me just point out that you have impeccable taste in basses ;D
Thanks all! I spent a good deal of time playing it last night. It's quite a different beast compared to my Ibanez 8er.
The string courses on the Ibanez are such that the octaves are on top, and the string pairings are spaced wide at 4mm. The tops of both strings in a given pair align on the same plane. Takes a little more effort to fret this one, and it's better suited to pick playing.
On the Ric, the bass string is on top, and each pair is spaced at a narrow 2mm. The octave strings sit on their own plane - positioned somewhere halfway between the top and bottom (vertically) of the bass strings. With such narrow spacing, this one plays effortlessly (almost feels like a 4-string) with both pick and fingerstyle (the latter being my comfort zone), but it taks some adjustment in left hand technique to be able to fully and consistently fret the octave strings. As a result, the octave sound is less pronounced. I'm thinking that this might provide a good way to sneak an 8 into the cover band setting. Always wanted to do that! (...baby steps to a B12S! Mwahahahaaaa)
I might experiment with some different alignments on the octave strings, but otherwise I'm lovin' it so far!
Just wanted to comment about how impressed I am by the thought and workmanship - excellent throughout. Hope it is a permanent fix.
Great thread...
Quote from: chromium on January 29, 2013, 02:07:03 PM
Tom, let me just point out that you have impeccable taste in basses ;D
Thanks all! I spent a good deal of time playing it last night. It's quite a different beast compared to my Ibanez 8er.
The string courses on the Ibanez are such that the octaves are on top, and the string pairings are spaced wide at 4mm. The tops of both strings in a given pair align on the same plane. Takes a little more effort to fret this one, and it's better suited to pick playing.
On the Ric, the bass string is on top, and each pair is spaced at a narrow 2mm. The octave strings sit on their own plane - positioned somewhere halfway between the top and bottom (vertically) of the bass strings. With such narrow spacing, this one plays effortlessly (almost feels like a 4-string) with both pick and fingerstyle (the latter being my comfort zone), but it taks some adjustment in left hand technique to be able to fully and consistently fret the octave strings. As a result, the octave sound is less pronounced. I'm thinking that this might provide a good way to sneak an 8 into the cover band setting. Always wanted to do that! (...baby steps to a B12S! Mwahahahaaaa)
I might experiment with some different alignments on the octave strings, but otherwise I'm lovin' it so far!
When I got my S/8 from ebay, the courses had been "reversed" to the "normal" octave string on top arrangement, which I much prefer. My first 8 was a Warmoth/Mighty Mite creation with the strings set up with the bass on top, and I too found it harder to fret the octave strings. B12S? I've got one! Great bass, fun to play around the house. But I've found in a live setting I'm not really digging the short scale.
Curious - are your string spacing numbers the actual gap between strings, or center to center?
Quote from: gearHed289 on January 30, 2013, 09:41:51 AM
B12S? I've got one! Great bass, fun to play around the house. But I've found in a live setting I'm not really digging the short scale.
Curious - are your string spacing numbers the actual gap between strings, or center to center?
Yeah I've wanted a B12S for some time, and still look off-and-on. Might get one someday if I can move out some lesser played instruments. Doubt I would use it much live either...
Those measurements on the string spacing between the bass and octave pairs were of the actual gap, not center-to-center. How does the 2mm compare to your s/8? Seems narrow, since I'm so used to that Ibanez... but I kinda like it!
I'll try to measure mine ASAP. Gaps are definitely pretty narrow. The nut is not original, and I have a custom 8 saddle bridge. You can also see that I completely removed the mute and adjustment screws. The "pitted chrome" is actually the reflection of my driveway...
(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/559310_3775576026454_484969711_n.jpg)
That looks pretty close to mine:
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k125/0chromium0/forums/rickenbacker/0131130933a_zps48115c60.jpg)
Love that bridge! I should have bought one when they were available, but I had no idea when/if I'd ever use it.
Yeah, it was pricey, but worth it. It may not look like there's a lot of difference between the higher strings saddles, but WHAT a difference it makes as far as intonation! I also started using a 105 low E which helped tons since I tend to be pretty heavy handed.