Ric 4003s/8 Repair Thread

chromium · January 11, 2013, 12:18:33 AM

I'm brainstorming an attempt to work out some issues on an ailing Ric that I recently adopted, and was hoping to get feedback on some aspects of the repair – and if nothing else share some pics of bass guts!

This bass has an issue that some of these seem to exhibit, where the neck bows inward and breaks away from the body wings, leaving cracks in the finish and a neck like a whammy-bar!

The cracks on this one extend roughly 5cm into the body on the bass side (and 4cm on the treble), and this butts right up against that long, narrow pole-piece route seen in the pic below. That is the deepest part of the neck pickup's swimming pool, and leaves only 1cm thick of wood remaining in the neck structure there:

This is the place where the bass wants to fold in on itself under tension, and I'm planning to reinforce this whole area in an effort to get it useable. A member on RR forum had shared a photo of how he usually fills this swimming pool route with a maple insert, makes a more deliberate route for the pickup, and a couple channels for the truss rods. This seems like a good idea, and I've bought some maple in order to attempt it. The pickup doesn't need a very big route afterall, and that deep pole-piece route could be roughly 6mm more shallow (and quite a bit narrower):

My questions have less to do with that, and more with finding a tactic to use in repairing the neck and body seams.

Is there any good way to work some glue into those seams without completely removing the body wings? I'd like to do that when that swimming-pool insert gets glued in. That way the body+neck pieces will be properly aligned again and the glue will set and bond those cracked areas back together.

I was thinking that maybe a syringe could be used to inject glue into the seams from the top/inside(?) The problem is that the seams are tight and I'm not sure how I'd pull that off. Just wondering if anyone here has advice?

drbassman · January 11, 2013, 06:32:40 AM

Well, getting glue into those tight seams is almost impossible without opening them up somehow. Once you do that, you'd have to repair the finish in that area as well. I had a similar hairline crack issue with my EB-3, but it has been stripped already, so widening the seam with a thin fret saw worked well and let me repair the crack by inserting a piece of maple veneer and glue inside. Can't figure out how you'd do this without hurting the finish.

ilan · January 11, 2013, 07:47:47 AM

Repairing the delamination is tricky. I saw a similar situation on a Fireglo v63. It took a very experienced luthier a couple of trials, and in the end wooden dowels had to be inserted to keep the body wings attached to the neck-thru part when the strings were tuned to pitch. And that was a 4-string bass. Glue was injected, but the repaired seams are visible through the Fireglo - I understand that with FG it is impossible not to leave some marks. But it's only visible on the back side, because in the front you have the pickguard covering that area.

Remember that the finish is conversion varnish, which further complicates things.

With an 8-stringer, I would try to design something significantly stronger than glue. You know that many S/8's have developed ski-slope necks even with the body wings firmly attached. So here you will have to be creative.

Reinforcing the weak area at the pickup route is probably a very smart thing to do. This is the spot where so many Rics want to fold in half. It's Ric's equivalent to Gibson's T-Bird neck volute...

Also, if button-top pickups are shallower than toasters, maybe you should use one.

drbassman · January 11, 2013, 09:20:22 AM

The problem is the entire routing design is crap for anything beyond 4 strings. Ric clearly didn't know what it was doing here. No big surprise.

I forgot to mention that my fix for the rout side would be to fill as much of the rout as I could with a solid maple block, as you suggested, with channels for the rods. Maybe even a rod through the inside blocks into the wings. Strictly from the inside, not visible from the outside.

chromium · January 11, 2013, 09:38:38 AM

Thanks Bill and Ilan.

With regard to "opening up" those seams, one thought I had was to drill a few very fine pilot holes into the seam, and then insert a syringe and attempt to force glue in there that way. Any thoughts as to whether that would be viable, or just weaken it further?

I've read about the recommendation to dowel the wings to the neck in the context of full wing removal and refinish of the bass. What about after the reinforcement is installed - doweling up there in that space by the fingerboard, between the reinforcement and the body wings? I could drill in at an angle and run a dowel in both sides.

Again, I'm just brainstorming here. I obviously don't want to bugger this bass up, but I'm also not striving for an undetectable repair (i.e. I don't mind just drop filling and buffing out the finish repair areas when/if it proves stable). I am in it at a price where I could send it to someone very experienced to do this repair, but then again if I can gain some experience in this space then I'd love to try.

Your idea of considering a button-top is a good one, Ilan. I just recently had my '78 apart and noticed it was more shallow:

chromium · January 11, 2013, 09:39:50 AM

Quote from: drbassman on January 11, 2013, 09:20:22 AM
I forgot to mention that my fix for the rout side would be to fill as much of the rout as I could with a solid maple block, as you suggested, with channels for the rods. Maybe even a rod through the inside blocks into the wings. Strictly from the inside, not visible from the outside.

Quote from: chromium on January 11, 2013, 09:38:38 AMI've read about the recommendation to dowel the wings to the neck in the context of full wing removal and refinish of the bass. What about after the reinforcement is installed - doweling up there in that space by the fingerboard, between the reinforcement and the body wings? I could drill in at an angle and run a dowel in both sides.

Sounds like you're suggesting the same thing there, right?

chromium · January 11, 2013, 10:58:26 AM

Quote from: ilan on January 11, 2013, 07:47:47 AM
You know that many S/8's have developed ski-slope necks even with the body wings firmly attached. So here you will have to be creative.

True. One possible saving grace on this bass is that the neck relief seems perfect. I only tuned it to pitch for a few hours, but it was very playable, and relief stayed exactly where I would have it if I were setting up the bass myself. The rods both work and have plenty of adjustment left in them. I was prepared to have to deal with that too. Worst part (besides the issue above) was the nut, but I can make a nice replacement for that.

I got this one from Ishibashi, and thier caption read something like "major faulting in neck, we do not recommend this bass".

I made them an offer on it assuming I'd have to tackle truss rod replacement too, and possibly worse.

If there is good news in all of this, it would be that the bass is stunning overall! The figuring in the wings is really pretty, and the bass looks to have hardly even been used (likely due to the structural issue). I also loved the way it felt and sounded during that brief opportunity to play it. It's very light and comfortable (my Ibanez 8 weighs 6.1kg by comparison!), and I actually kind of liked the reverse string courses - made it nice and easy to play fingerstyle, and so I might have to run it that way for a while. (I'm still trying to better myself as a pick player...)

Here are some shots of the rest of it:

chromium · January 19, 2013, 03:39:21 PM

Just sharing some progress pics. No idea how well this will turn out, but it won't be for a lack of trying!

Routed a spot for the toaster:

Only took out a minimal amount of wood. I wanted to leave as much structure there as possible to reinforce the neck. I used the drill press to make way for the pole pieces, instead of making a huge route like Ric did:

Cut out the maple reinforcement pieces on a scroll saw, and got the rough shaping done:

I built a makeshift Ric "torture rack" to stretch the neck back into position:

I used a couple of ratcheting nylon tie-down straps around the "workbench". One anchors the body firmly to the table, and a 1" PVC pipe (left over from working on my lawn drip system) acts as a fulcrum point. Its gorilla-taped to the table, and covered in towels so I don't mar the body. I then ratcheted down the headstock strap until the neck angle was just slightly beyond where it should sit. The idea is that I'll do the final shaping of the reinforcement pieces by hand and get the fit nice and snug, route channels for the truss rods, glue the reinforcements in, and then release a bit of tension on the headstock so everything snugs up and the neck and wings align evenly.

Still working out the strategy for repairing the wing delamination, but I'm thinking of drilling a couple tiny pilot holes, and then using a syringe to force glue into the seam. I may try and use another tie down strap around the horns to (very very carefully) apply enough pressure to open the seam a bit - mimicing what I can do by hand. The mechanical fit seems good, and so my hope is that I can get the glue pushed in there and clamp it while everything is drying. Once dry, I'll look into doweling it.

I welcome any feedback you all might have!

dadagoboi · January 19, 2013, 05:16:35 PM

Beautiful work!

Hörnisse · January 19, 2013, 06:38:55 PM

Very nice! I've never seen a channel route like that on a Ric before. Is that exclusive to the 8 string basses?

Lightyear · January 20, 2013, 11:42:51 AM

Quote from: chromium on January 11, 2013, 09:38:38 AM
Thanks Bill and Ilan.

With regard to "opening up" those seams, one thought I had was to drill a few very fine pilot holes into the seam, and then insert a syringe and attempt to force glue in there that way. Any thoughts as to whether that would be viable, or just weaken it further?

I was thinking along the same lines. But my concern would be could I force the glue into the entire area? The glue would have to be thin enough to flow but strong enough to hold - would thinned carpenters glue hold? What about a slow setting CA? I would be tempted to "crack" some boards and test several glues as well as procedures to see how every thing would work and hold.

chromium · January 20, 2013, 03:24:24 PM

Quote from: Lightyear on January 20, 2013, 11:42:51 AM
I was thinking along the same lines. But my concern would be could I force the glue into the entire area? The glue would have to be thin enough to flow but strong enough to hold - would thinned

I've been using Titebond original. I was reading on their site that it can be thinned by up to 5% (using water) without losing bond strength. Any experience with that? I might give it a shot in hopes that it will flow better. I think it's still gonna be tough to get any in there. $:-\$

I got the oval pole piece area reinforcement shaped and glued in, and I'm just finishing the truss rod channels on the swimming pool plug now. Got a nice snug fit on that one too. I'll attempt to glue the wings at the same time I install that piece, and use my stretching apparatus to keep everything lined up while the glue sets.

Should have some more pics later...

Lightyear · January 20, 2013, 05:03:26 PM

Completed the rest of my original post as I screwed up the first time and didn't catch it.

As for thinning Titebond 5% I'm not sure if that would be thin enough to flow into all areas - I would certainly test it first.

Rob · January 20, 2013, 06:12:21 PM

Quote from: Lightyear on January 20, 2013, 05:03:26 PM
Completed the rest of my original post as I screwed up the first time and didn't catch it.

As for thinning Titebond 5% I'm not sure if that would be thin enough to flow into all areas - I would certainly test it first.

I would be more tempted to try thin CA glue (not the reg harware store stuff) ot hot hide glue via your syringe than thinning titebond.

chromium · January 20, 2013, 06:34:17 PM

Quote from: Hörnisse on January 19, 2013, 06:38:55 PM
Very nice! I've never seen a channel route like that on a Ric before. Is that exclusive to the 8 string basses?

Not certain, but I was speculating that the normal 4003 routes look like the one in that pic of my MG 4001. I think it's the extra route for the toaster polepieces that causes problems on these s8 basses. Maybe the tension of 4 strings works ok with that routing scheme (on the v63, c64, etc..)?

Quote from: Lightyear on January 20, 2013, 11:42:51 AM
I was thinking along the same lines. But my concern would be could I force the glue into the entire area? The glue would have to be thin enough to flow but strong enough to hold - would thinned carpenters glue hold? What about a slow setting CA? I would be tempted to "crack" some boards and test several glues as well as procedures to see how every thing would work and hold.

Thanks - that's a great idea! I have some surplus of that maple that I could break, gently clamp, and test the drill/syringe method with the different glues.

Quote from: Rob on January 20, 2013, 06:12:21 PM
I would be more tempted to try thin CA glue (not the reg harware store stuff) ot hot hide glue via your syringe than thinning titebond.

Yeah I was reading that you can put the hide glue container in hot water and heat it to improve flow. I'll probably try that, the reduced Titebond, and the CA on some purposely-broken maple and compare the results.

Thanks guys!