The Last Bass Outpost
Gear Discussion Forums => Gibson Basses => Topic started by: chromium on October 15, 2008, 09:08:54 PM
-
I've wanted a 70s T-Bird since I was a kid, and I bought my Epi Elitist several years ago to try to scratch that itch, but I always kinda thought I might sell it if the right Gibson came up (at a price that wasn't untouchable for me). Well that finally happened, and I took the plunge. This bass just seemed to have that right mix of characteristics for me - plenty of player wear, an extra (patched) hole in the control cavity, but otherwise unbroken... and it was coming from a trustworthy source. I regret the circumstances under which it came to me, but know that it really means a lot to me to finally be able to play one of these. It will be well loved, and it will remain in the family.
I have to admit I was a little worried about getting into this, knowing that I’d have to sell the Epi – whose sound I love – and remembering that the 70s birds have their own characteristic sound that I was afraid I might not warm up to. Well the sound turned out to be incredible, and it has everything that Epi w/the TB+ pickups has - plus the benefit of 30+ years of settling-in to liven things up a bit. Based on my recollection of sound-clips and dialogue back at the 'pit, this thing actually sounds *nothing* like I would have expected a 70s bird to sound! Turns out, there's a reason for this...
This bass had been rewired at some point with its pickups in parallel, much like the 60s and late-model Thunderbirds. It still retains those characteristic Tbird mids, but with that low-end fullness of a modern bird. I drew up a schematic of the wiring in this bass:
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k125/0chromium0/forums/thunderbird/1976-bird-mod.jpg)
A stock 76-79 would have had its pickups wired in series like this:
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k125/0chromium0/forums/thunderbird/1976-bird-original.jpg)
That’s apparently what contributes to the hotter, more middly sound that the 70s birds are known for.
I found a thread over at Jules’ site (http://vintageguitars.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=1393) that speaks in more detail to this type of modification. I haven’t experienced the “series sound” yet, but I’m *really* digging the sound of these pickups in parallel, so I think I’m gonna have to leave this one alone! Just thought I’d share this in case someone else wants to teach an old bird some new tricks.
Oh... and here are some gratuitous pics of the bass with its younger sibling:
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k125/0chromium0/forums/thunderbird/DSCF0012.jpg)
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k125/0chromium0/forums/thunderbird/DSCF0005.jpg)
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k125/0chromium0/forums/thunderbird/DSCF0007.jpg)
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k125/0chromium0/forums/thunderbird/DSCF0008.jpg)
-
Nice bird! Congratulations!!
i never liked the speed controls on the Bicentennials, so I changed mine to amber mirror caps a while ago, like on the Elitist. Like that much better.
-
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k125/0chromium0/forums/thunderbird/1976-bird-mod.jpg)
A stock 76-79 would have had its pickups wired in series like this:
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k125/0chromium0/forums/thunderbird/1976-bird-original.jpg)
This brings up a question maybe someone on here can answer. I have 2 '76 birds. On one of them the neck volume pot shaft broke off (the pot still functions, but requires a small screwdriver to change it). I took the bass to the repair guy I use, along with the second schematic that shows 100K pots. He couldn't find a source anywhere for 100K pots in that size with split shafts. Does anyone know where I can get one? Is the schematic correct, or are they really 250K pots?
Thanks.
Oh yea, nice Tbird!
-
Congratulations Joe!
-
d*mn.....the birds are flying all over the place on this forum at the moment....stop it now, please!
-
I'm herewith shyly raising my hand re that now forlorn Epi Elitist ... It needs a new home. Treatment according to the Geneva Convention guaranteed, spacious accomodations in officers quarters in a German castle, military decorations may be retained & free access to American Red Cross parcels!
uwe.hornung@cliffordchance.com
Uwe
-
Congrats, Uwe! I can attest to the fact that you'll provide a good home!
-
The poor guy hasn't even read my Email yet and here you are already expropriating him! ;D Socialism seems all the rage with you yanks nowadays ...
I've had an Elitist on my list for a long while. They are the peak of Epi's modern day production, my Epi EB-3 Elitist doesn't disappoint, they are long deleted and the vintage tuners and guitar-size pups give it an identity of its own.
-
I think Uwe only accepts one answer:
Zu befehl, Herr Hornung!
;D
German is such a nice language, when shouted out loud:)
-
I always find it gratifying that our Dutch neighbors have kept a few of the more profound German language exclamations in good memory since we last had the honor of teaching them Deutsch in a more organized fashion! :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
-
This brings up a question maybe someone on here can answer. I have 2 '76 birds. On one of them the neck volume pot shaft broke off (the pot still functions, but requires a small screwdriver to change it). I took the bass to the repair guy I use, along with the second schematic that shows 100K pots. He couldn't find a source anywhere for 100K pots in that size with split shafts. Does anyone know where I can get one? Is the schematic correct, or are they really 250K pots?
Thanks.
Oh yea, nice Tbird!
Yeah the originals should be 100K. I just looked around too- you're right! Impossible to find. You can find 100K log/audio mini-pots w/split shafts, and I found this one (http://www.banzaieffects.com/Marshall-Pot-100k-log-24mm-pr-17240.html) which is full size...
...but if you want to keep the original pot, you know what I would do? You can actually open those up- there are four prongs that hold the metal can/cover on the pot, and if you carefully bend them back and remove the cover, you can get at the innards.
Do the same thing with a new CTS pot (I'm assuming it has CTS-made pots in it), lift out and swap the whole shaft/wiper assembly from the new pot to the old one, and reassemble. It doesn't even matter what resistance value the "donor" pot is, as the shaft/wiper piece is universal.
Voilà! A new pot! I've done this before on other gear (old synths) with hard to find pots. Works like a champ, as long as you can find a donor of similar pedigree.
-
I'm herewith shyly raising my hand re that now forlorn Epi Elitist ... It needs a new home. Treatment according to the Geneva Convention guaranteed, spacious accomodations in officers quarters in a German castle, military decorations may be retained & free access to American Red Cross parcels!
uwe.hornung@cliffordchance.com
Uwe
I approve your draft proposal of the Tbird Bailout Plan, although I would like to add a "no-spandex" clause. ;D
Email sent.
-
I guess you decided this after like ten mails of Uwe with pictures of all kinds of German Stukas and Fallschirmjäger?
But it would be a nice addition to Ze Köllektiön.
A serious question about the schemes, Uwe. What do you think? I have a '76er. Keep it as it is or try this out? It sounds interesting.
-
I'm not even sure whether mine is in original state (i.e. series) or not! It sounds thinner than all my other Birds so I guess so. Wouldn't change it because it has a different voice that way. I have enough other thundering Thunderbirds.
But if it was my only one, I'd probably do the mod. It is reversible, makes sense and among TBird connaisseurs it's not gonna affect value.
Uwe
-
I think about it. I kinda like the more mid-ish sound of the Bicentennial. It's like instant-Entwistle.
-
@Herr Moderator - the bird will fly tomorrow. Vielen Dank!
@Chris- I really like the sound you get from your bass, and that only helped to give me GAS for a 70s bird. I'm just thankful you pointed out it was in fact the TBird making those sounds - and *not* the 4005! ;D
If you do ever make the mod, I'd recommend just building a new harness w/new pots and jack, and just lifting the old stuff out to keep it all intact. You would only have to desolder the pickup leads and bridge ground in that scenario - making it easy (and relatively undetectable) to revert back if you wanted.
-
Wow, thanks :)
-
That's a nice one you caught. My refinned white one had the pup's wired in parallell when I got it. I did'nt like it one bit. When both pickups was dialed in full the sound was thin and the bridge pup outdid the neck pickup. There's a possibilty that they were wired out of phase so maybe it would have been better to switch the leads from the neck pickup. I wired it in series like the original recipe and it sounds like it should in my opinion and it is even better sounding than the stock Sunburst. The Bicentennials deliver my favorite sound. And Chris, I believe these came with mirror cap knobs or speed knobs. The speed knobs seemed to be used on the later ones from what I've seen.
-
My Greenie was wired that way too..........and it sounded the same: thin, when I got a pup for it the wiring was done back to the original layout, which I like better too.
-
The setting I like on the Thunderbird is when the neck pickup is full on, and the bridge pickup is backed off just enough to bring in the thickness. With the bridge pickup on full, the sound gets thin and kind of anemic. This seems to be the same behavior on the Epilitist, and on my EB-2D and EB-3 as well- guess that's a typical trait of pickups in parallel (?)
I might have to try the series sound myself one of these days. I do like what I've heard of it, just haven't ever experienced it first hand.
-
I have this 335-book and you see pics with all kind of knobs. Bells, speeds, mirror caps, and all three in amber and black. Sometimes I think they just use what they have. Most Bicentennials I've seen have sped knobs, but IO think they look cheap. I replaced them, of course I can order new ones and I kept the old ones to be sure. My Bird had holes drilled in, so replacing the knobs won't lower the valuie any more:)
-
So to get this straight:
If my Bicentennial sounds fullest with both pups full throttle and the neck pup on its own more subdued and the bridge pup on its own just bony, then that indicates in series, right?
And if on all my other Birds dialing down the bridge pup (with the neck pup full on)makes the sound fuller and more "there", then that means parallel?
Uwe
-
If you can control each pickup's volume independently, then the pickups are wired in parallel.
-
Huh? But all Bicentennials came with two vol and one tone knob(s), yet were wired in series! So how do I know whether they work independently or not? If I dial down one pup, then that obviously affects the sound. How do I know whether it is just that one pup's sound falling away or a direct influence of that pup's vol pot? ??? ??? ???
-
Sorry for this off topic question. But how is the sound of the Thunderbird IV basses compared to the older models?
-
Huh? But all Bicentennials came with two vol and one tone knob(s), yet were wired in series! So how do I know whether they work independently or not? If I dial down one pup, then that obviously affects the sound. How do I know whether it is just that one pup's sound falling away or a direct influence of that pup's vol pot? ??? ??? ???
I can't answer that question. The last time I played a Bicentennial had to be about 8 years ago and I never adjusted the controls.
I can tell you for sure that in a series circuit, all current is the same at every point in the circuit. It's possible to turn the furthest pickup off by a switch (or a control knob used as an on/off switch). It's not possible for each pickup to be independently adjustable for volume. If they are, then it's not a series circuit.
-
Sorry for this off topic question. But how is the sound of the Thunderbird IV basses compared to the older models?
Any 2 pup TBird is a IV - of any era. One pup Birds were "Thunderbird II" and regularly built only in the sixties (the eighties saw a small edition creep out). Modern Birds began in 1987 with the here (unjustly!) much derided black hardware and the black plastic "teflon" soapbars called TB Plus Ceramic Humbuckers.
To my ears, new Birds sound fatter with more sublows and less overdriven then either sixties or Bicentennial Birds. Owning a variety from all eras, I don't think the difference is huge though - pups and headstock size excepted, the TB IV is still the same animal as in the sixties: a nine ply neck thru construction with maho wings. We're all trainspotters and connaisseurs here so we hear or believe to hear nuances no one else will give a damn about. While 80 % of this forum will now swoop down on me, I think the modern TB Plus pups emulate the sound of the sixties pups to quite some extent. I don't think any TBird player in the sixties or seventies would have rejected a modern TBird had an alien intelligent lifeform brought him one from the future.
I think the sound of a new Bird to an old one compares to the difference in sound between a Ric 4001 and a modern Ric 4003 (both uncapped). The voice of these basses has been retained over the decades.
Uwe
-
Not having a 60's era one to compare, I'm left with 70's vs. a "modern" post '88 'Bird to judge, they're certainly different from each other and for me each era has its own good and bad points. The pups on modern ones are fine sounding to me - I just wish they'd offer them in chrome along with the rest of the hardware as an option.
-
Any 2 pup TBird is a IV - of any era. One pup Birds were "Thunderbird II" and regularly built only in the sixties (the eighties saw a small edition creep out). Modern Birds began in 1987 with the here (unjustly!) much derided black hardware and the black plastic "teflon" soapbars called TB Plus Ceramic Humbuckers.
To my ears, new Birds sound fatter with more sublows and less overdriven then either sixties or Bicentennial Birds. Owning a variety from all eras, I don't think the difference is huge though - pups and headstock size excepted, the TB IV is still the same animal as in the sixties: a nine ply neck thru construction with maho wings. We're all trainspotters and connaisseurs here so we hear or believe to hear nuances no one else will give a damn about. While 80 % of this forum will now swoop down on me, I think the modern TB Plus pups emulate the sound of the sixties pups to quite some extent. I don't think any TBird player in the sixties or seventies would have rejected a modern TBird had an alien intelligent lifeform brought him one from the future.
I think the sound of a new Bird to an old one compares to the difference in sound between a Ric 4001 and a modern Ric 4003 (both uncapped). The voice of these basses has been retained over the decades.
Uwe
Perfectly stated.
The new birds sound great, and I bet this one with its wiring gets in that ballpark. I'll get to A/B it with Andy's (nokturnal) blackout Thunderbird here in a few weeks, so that will be telling. Unless you have bass OCD like me and are hell bent on all those subtlties, a modern one or an Orville by Gibson, Epi Japan, Elitist, etc... would do you proud. In fact, I was suprised how closely proportioned the Elitist was to the '76.
When I was a kid, I got to play my teacher's 60s Pbass ('66, IIRC) regularly, and that was a life changing experience. I would have probably chalked that thing off to an old beat up POS at first glance, and wondered what the big deal was compared to a modern Pbass had I not gotten to experience that difference first hand. That bass just sung! It would resonate your entire body, and that was before plugging it in. That's not to say all old basses are automatically gems (some can be stinkers), but with the good ones, there is some sort of magic that happens at some point, and that's what I always find myself trying to chase.
Hey - now that I think of it, I'm mentally screwed for life, and that guy has cost me a lot of money! >:( ;D
-
It's inherently flawed to compare a new bass to an old one. For a fair comparison, you would have to compare a 30 year old sixties Bird with a thirty year old 2008 TBird. The question with new basses is: What will they sound like when they are old? And I'm sure plenty of basses that came out in the last few years will "sing" in three decades' time. You just wait. Even my early eighties alu neck Kramer sounds different (better) than it did 25 years ago.
Uwe
-
That's just becuase your Kramer was old growth aluminum. The new stuff doesn't compare. :P
-
My biggest issue with the new birds is the small headstock, mini tuners, and black hardware (spoiled by my '76). For that reason, I prefer the Elitist over the Gibbies.
-
I agree with you Uwe about the comparison between new and old being inherently flawed, but if I wasn't a total bass geek and was just a casual listener, I would probably have trouble discerning the difference between all the different Tbird offerings - new and old. I would answer Barend's question of how the new ones stack up by saying that there are the obvious cosmetic differences, and then there are all those magic subtlties that come into play with an old instrument vs. new - but from the the casual listeners point of view, it's still all very much Tbird in sound!
From a compulsive bass addict perspective, I could probably justify keeping one from every generation for all their respective sonic variations and look-and-feel characteristics. I think the fact that this 76 was wired up like a modern bird, and has some similar sonic characteristics, made it easier for me to let go of that Elitist. I might have been inclined to keep both if I had heard what the Bicentenniel sounds like in its native state, as I tend to hoard basses for their sounds. But I'm glad that didn't happen from the standpoint of my Paypal account! ;D
I always think back to those sound clips that George did of all the different birds. Some of the Grecos, Epi Japans, etc... really held their own against some of the older basses.
-
thanks for sharing your experiences.
I guess it is the same discussion as ´is an old Fender better then a new one´...my experience is that it is not better or worse just different. An old bass has been played a lot and the wood is dryer, resulting in a more ´vintage´ old school sound, a dryer sound so to speak. But it doesn´t have to be better. I don´t how that is with Gibson basses but that is what I noticed comparing old and new Fenders.
-
Old wood is not drier. It reaches the same equilibrium moisture content as any wood in the same atmosphere. No matter how many musicians insist otherwise. The laws of physics aren't suspended for guitar woods.
As for old supposedly sounding better, that's subjective. I've yet to see a double-blind test where listeners could reliably tell the difference.
-
ok, I thought the wood was actualy drier, at least it sounds drier. I mean less bright.
If an old bass or guitar has been played very much I think you can hear it. There is a difference in sound between old and new. Not better or worse. It it is hard to describe and rather personal.
-
I can't answer that question. The last time I played a Bicentennial had to be about 8 years ago and I never adjusted the controls.
I can tell you for sure that in a series circuit, all current is the same at every point in the circuit. It's possible to turn the furthest pickup off by a switch (or a control knob used as an on/off switch). It's not possible for each pickup to be independently adjustable for volume. If they are, then it's not a series circuit.
The Bicentennials have two volume controls and has a series circuit.The bridge pickup is connected to ground in one end and the lead goes through the neck pickup with volume controls on 10. The volume controls are wired in parallell to the pickups so that they shortcut/bypass each pickup. You can see each pair of parallell pickup/pot as one unit in series with the other pickup/pot unit.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/doombass/gibson6.jpg)
-
The Bicentennials have two volume controls and has a series circuit.The bridge pickup is connected to ground in one end and the lead goes through the neck pickup with volume controls on 10. The volume controls are wired in parallell to the pickups so that they shortcut/bypass each pickup. You can see each pair of parallell pickup/pot as one unit in series with the other pickup/pot unit.
I.e. it's not a true series circuit. It's a series/parallel circuit that's different than a typical guitar circuit.
-
I.e. it's not a true series circuit. It's a series/parallel circuit that's different than a typical guitar circuit.
Correct. Only time where it is true series would be when the volume controls are on 10.
-
Joe, your Epi Eli TB has arrived - wonderful condition (thanks for the extra pup rings etc), so obviously lovingly cared for, and with an incredibly low, yet buzzfree action for a TBird. Very pleased with the sound. Bit darker/warmer than a modern day Gibson TB which has more raucuous mids and I actually prefer the sound of the Epi's bridge pup to the one of the Gibson in solo mode. The Epi's sounds fuller.
And it is set neck (as you have always said). You can tell the telltale thin line in the finish where the set neck merges into the body. Sustain is perhaps not quite as strong as on a neck-thru-TB, but certainly ample enough. A worthy Donnervogel
Vielen Dank, it will have a good home!
Uwe
-
and with an incredibly low, yet buzzfree action for a TBird.
I did that 3-point bridge setup trick that I learned from one of you guys over at the DP - to rearrange the fixed-height saddles to better approximate the flatter radius of the fretboard. That allowed me to dial it in a lot lower without buzz. Worked like a champ!
I must say, they did a really nice job with those Elitists. Great bass, I'm glad you are enjoying it, and thanks again!
-
to rearrange the fixed-height saddles to better approximate the flatter radius of the fretboard. That allowed me to dial it in a lot lower without buzz. Worked like a champ!
Tell me more about this.
-
Tell me more about this.
Looking at the bridge saddles the way they were originally positioned, the E and G string saddles were low, and the A and D saddles were high. The creates a nice arch across all four strings, but the problem is that the fingerboard radius is relatively flat. In trying to get the action set med-low, the E and G strings would ratlle all to hell, but the A and D strings would be just right.
Since you can't adjust the height of the individual saddles on the 3-point, I rearranged them so that (IIRC) the high saddles were on the E and A string, and the low saddles were on the D and G string. You then tilt the bridge (using the two large studs) so that the action of the strings are sort of equal in height across the width of the fingerboard (with just a bit more height on the E and A strings, since they have more play). It looks kind of wonky, since the 3-point takes on this odd, slanted stature, but the end result is that the saddles align better with the fingerboard radius this way - enabling you to drop the overall action lower. Wish I had a photo - It's easier to visualize than explain.
I didn't find that I needed to file any of the saddles after I rearranged them, and while some of the saddles are cut for the larger strings, I didn't have any issue using that saddle with a smaller gauge string. I want to say that I reordered them like this (but it has been a while, so I could be wrong...):
A -> E
D -> A
E -> D
Prior to moving the saddles, I marked where the intonation of each was set using a pencil, and that got me back in the ballpark after the changes were made. Also, I setup the center stud to hike the bridge up just a tad bit on the side closest to the neck. Just enough to give the strings good downward pressure on the saddles, but not enough to instigate the rear studs to start pulling up out of the body (which I seem to read about quite a bit).
If anybody has anything to add to that, please do!
-
Thanks Joe! You may have just saved me $100 on a Supertone bridge! That damn A string saddle always feels too high for me and this info will probably fix it. I also wish you had a pic but I think I get it from the great description. :mrgreen:
-
Hey no prob - hope it helps. I'm just regurgitating what I've learned from all these other folks around here, the 'pit, and Jules' forum. I probably never would have got that thing setup right otherwise!
-
Don't tell him, but Joe had that bass set up with a real girlie action :gay: :gay: :gay:. I raised it a little (and it is still very low), because real men need real action. :rimshot:
-
;D You just can't handle these fast American "chicks"! :P
-
Nimble-fingered little creatures they are ...
-
I just tried that trick with the saddle swap in my Epi Bird! Guess what? Worked as a charm! At last I've got real "girlie" action! Hooray!
Thanx Mr. Chromium, your advice is great! ;D
-
Nice to see us all getting in touch with our efeminant sides! ;D
Well on that happy note, I'm off to crank up some Liz Phair...
-
Well people, if you want even more girlie action on your bolt-on with 3-point, shim the neck, follow Mr. Chromium advices and you're ready to go! ;D
-
Nice to see us all getting in touch with our efeminant sides! ;D
Well on that happy note, I'm off to crank up some Liz Phair...
I'm gonna take a little credit for that............................Sorry I was away over the weekend enjoying some girlie action on my Thunderbird ;D
(http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd306/veronicasteed/Steeles13.jpg)