Bass on Argus.

[Alanko]

I purchased a CD copy of Argus a few months back, before I realised there was various versions with different remixes etc. One thing I've noticed though is the lack of low end on the album. Is it just me, my headphones, my speakers etc? For example, on Throw Down the Sword there is this long pedal note on the intro that sounds pretty bassy, then it all evaporates away once the drums come in. Martin Turner plays some interesting counterpoint lines, though not quite up to Chris Squire's level of harmonic composition, but in doing so his tone seems to be all about this chewy high-mids sound that just becomes one of the guitars, to my ears. Where are the lows?

In short, I find Wishbone Ash to straddle hard rock and prog, but just sitting a wee bit out of each genre. They aren't UFO and they aren't Yes. I figured that I still have a fair chunk to learn about this band. I still like the tunes on Argus though.

[uwe]

"In short, I find Wishbone Ash to straddle hard rock and prog, but just sitting a wee bit out of each genre."

True! They always fell a little between both chairs, but otoh you could play them to both your heavy rock friends and to your prog ones and both wouldn't mind. Even to girlfriends, having adolescent mock sex to Cat Stevens albums (or Floyd's Wish You Were Here) only does grate after a while, you know.

That's a Ric on Argus, not a TBird, all the way through. I have no idea which remaster you have, sounds a bit like you have the original MCA CD release which was incredibly flat and hissy. There was a 2002 remaster and then a 2007 one supervised by Martin Turner (where he also doctored the backing vocals of the original as he found them a little flat). Quality got increasingly better, but they are all put to shame by this one here:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Argus-Wishbone-Ash/dp/B00W9JQ9I2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1438880685&sr=8-1&keywords=wishbone+ash+argus+ltd+edition



from Culture Factory

http://www.culturefactoryusa.com/

a French label specializing in ltd no (so you should be quick to get one) mock paper sleeve releases and their own style of remastering

http://www.culturefactoryusa.com/component/content/article/8-information/6-remastering

which some people hate (too overcooked) and some people love (finally some balls). I say: They do wonders for recordings that initially sound a little flat, and Argus was one of those (never mind how the beauty of the music still saved and elevated it) as Derek Lawrence was hardly a dramatic or dynamic producer. The Culture Factory remaster has given Argus a kick in the butt (also as regards the bass frequencies, but not just that: there is more detail everywhere) and you now have Wishbone Ash playing Argus in your living room, the experience is that stark ... I tend to play my Argus versions side by side to people who proclaim not to hear a dif in remasters and they cannot believe the - night and day - difference!

Funny, I never compared Martin Turner and Chris Squire, but I understand where you are coming from. Martin Turner is much more lyrical than the late Herr Squire who was a boisterous, upfront, even flashy player. Turner also hardly ever plays anything fast, he's a leisurely melodic player, but that fits into WA's musical landscape. Andy Powell has said that Martin's various bass successors have grounded the band more. That might be true - but Martin's more baritone guitar approach is beauty in itself, especially on Argus. He has said in interviews that in Wishbone Ash he did not even want the WA guitarists to tell him what chords they were playing as he felt that would inhibit his note choice - that is were all those thirds and fifths as well as sixths, sevenths and occasional seconds come from - anything but the root note!  I love the man's playing and it has rubbed off a lot on me. When I hear a melody I immediately start to harmonize on bass.

[Alanko]

Thanks for that great post. My copy is from MCA, copyrighted 2002 and has those three ill-fitting boogie rock live cuts tacked on as a half-arsed bonus. I'm probably a philistine, but the track Jail Bait bores me to tears.

The Culture Factory release sounds interesting, not as an absolute replacement to other reissue but as a companion I guess. I figured my version had been Turner'd as there is a subtle chorus effect on the clean guitar passages  in tracks like The King Will Come. I guess that is on the originals as well?

[uwe]

Naw, Turner only came in with the 2007 remaster as he felt that the 2002 remaster had not been all it could have been. He too felt that there was not enough bass on the 2002 remaster and it did get better on the 2007 one, but the Froggies have topped all that in their release.

The Culture Factory remasters even made the two New York Dolls 70ies studio albums sound forceful - and that is saying something, both Todd Rundgren and Shadow Morton had cut all balls in their respective production!

And you should hear the Status Quo albums they have done (Hello and Blue for You) - they now sound like Quo sounded live in the 70ies, blasting out of the speakers, especially Blue for You, lovely in all its cocained frenzy.

[Alanko]

I would say that there just isn't enough of anything on the 2002 mix. The drums are a bit underwhelming, being mono on most (all?) of the tracks and sitting dead centre in the mix. They don't meld with the bass at all. Some of the guitar tones are pretty ratty as well. I guess the mix just isn't very unified for my tastes.

Vaguely related, I purchased a Tokai Thunderbird last night as it was on sale. I purchased it online, and it is hopefully making its way to my inlaws' house. I went for a cream one, ala Martin Turner, Overend Watts... everybody has a black or sunburst T-bird, right? 

[uwe]

The wedding bassist! 

Derek Lawrence was essentially a 60ies producer who never arrived in the new production age of the 70ies. After the first three albums, DP were dissatisfied with his services (too 60ies), poached his engineer, Martin Birch, and moved on with him, Birch shaping the DP sound in the 70ies.

Blackmore must have felt a twinge of guilt because when he heard Andy Powell aping Blackmore riffs and runs on a stage where he and Powell were soundchecking at the same time (an unknown WA opening for a DP starting to climb the ladder), he placed a call with Lawrence telling him to check WA out (I guess the classicism in Powell's playing and the cheeky nerve to stand up to him attracted Blackmore, he has a heart for "unkown musicians" he likes). Lawrence (more an impresario than a technical producer) heard WA and said he would get them a recording contract in the US if they paid him a ticket over the pond. They were broke, so they took loans from their mothers (don't mothers do anything for their sons?) and talked Lawrence into paying half the ticket himself. Fly over he did. And returned with the ink drying on a recording contract with MCA (maybe the twin harmony guitar attracted them, they would later on sign Lynyrd Skynyrd too). Those were the days. So he was no doubt a paramount force with WA in the early days, but I believe Argus was the last album they did with him though they returned to him for another production sometime in the late seventies. WA always floundered a bit as producers go, except for the early days there was no consistency and they tried people like Tom Dowd (who took all their balls away on Locked In) and Bill Szymczyk (who produced the excellent There's the Rub and then went on to record the One of these Nights album with a band named after some North American raptor which later on had a song about a hotel or such - Martin Turner credits the overt use of harmony guitars on One of these Nights and later Hotel California (the album) to Szymczyk's previous WA experience).

As rock bands go (he also did a lot of pop productions and was involved with Hot Chocolate), Derek Lawrence is probably best known for Deep Purple, Wishbone Ash and ... Angel!!! The Angel guys liked his work with early DP and demanded him as a producer at a time when Derek's "best used before-"date was already a  while back.

I once read a review that stated that WA had that flowing West Coast feeling in their music - untypical for most other British bands of the time. There is some truth to that and when Laurie Wisefield replaced Ted Turner that certainly upped the American influence. I guess the Doobie Brothers wouldn''t have felt too awkward playing this song.

[Alanko]

The section of Blowing Free 'In my dreams everything was all right/In your schemes you can only try' sounds like it could be a bit of Suite Judy Blue Eyes and Turner's frenetic bass licks in Sometime World remind me a lot of Hillman's lines on So You Wanna Be a Rock and Roll Star of the Byrds. Coincidence? I think there is a CSNY feel that crept in to both Pink Floyd and early Yes at different times as well, so I wouldn't rule it out!

[uwe]

Well observed! CSN(&Y) obviously took harmony vocals in rock to places they had not been before (Crosby's approach being especially unusual), they had to leave a mark on anybody serious about harmony vocals at the time (early 70ies) just as The Beach Boys had been influential in the 60ies.

WA never had a chest-beating lead vocalist in the Paul Rodgers, Robert Plant, Ian Gillan or Ozzy mould, Turner's (Martin), Turner's (Ted), Powell's and Wisefield's vocals are all pleasant enough, but not of frontman quality. So the harmony vocal thing was out of sheer necessity.

[Alanko]

Credit where it's due, their voices all blend together really well even on the live recordings I've heard.

[uwe]

I hear a lot of WA (figures) and I still have difficulties telling them apart! I never realized until recently that Jailbait was sung by Ted Turner (once he left, Martin sang it).

[Alanko]

I only know it was Ted because he's singing it on the Old Grey Whistle Test video. That 21 fret Rick is a thing of beauty.

[uwe]

WA in their prime (Wisefield line-up), interesting to see that back then Martin didn't yet have his Badass abomination of a bridge on the Bürd, but still had the 60ies original (which he can now safely reinstall thanks to Scott's Badbird component!). I saw them on that tour, I didn't know a lot of their material back then, but I came away hellishly impressed, Martin with that Explorer and that sailor attire left an iconic imprint in my impressionable mind. I had forgotten how pretty-boy cute Laurie was!!! 

[Alanko]

Hands where I can see them! 

As I mentioned in another thread, I had a chance to buy a white Epi T-bird that Martin Turner turned down, here in Edinburgh. I was told he had bought the other one, though I've yet to see him rock anything other than the original white Overend one or the Orville sunburst one.

I turned the Epiphone down too.  Somebody bought it though as it wasn't in stock last time I looked. I enthusiastically agreed to attend a band practice on Monday (wozzat?) and realise I don't have a case for my new T-bird. I've panic-bought a 'Rok Sak' for it. Here goes nothing. 

[uwe]

Ritter makes the best TBird gigbags (in several generations by now) I know of. Fit snugly like a rubber after an overdose of Viagra, but not too tight, i.e. no strain on the structure.

That's not the newest version (and I have an even older one, but that was already very good), but they are all excellent and offer protection as well, not just against scratches.

[gearHed289]

WA in their prime (Wisefield line-up), interesting to see that back then Martin didn't yet have his Badass abomination of a bridge on the Bürd, but still had the 60ies original (which he can now safely reinstall thanks to Scott's Badbird component!). I saw them on that tour, I didn't know a lot of their material back then, but I came away hellishly impressed, Martin with that Explorer and that sailor attire left an iconic imprint in my impressionable mind. I had forgotten how pretty-boy cute Laurie was!!! 

That's some good rock and roll there. I'm not really familiar with WA at all except for a cassette someone gave me years ago. Really great guitar tones. They really make good use of the 2 guitar lineup. In playing situations (as opposed to as a listener) I've tended to steer clear of 2 guitar bands, but watching this made me realize - I think my avoidance came from the fact that it all got so ham-fisted in the 80s. These guys seem to know when and where to leave some space.