When is a bass not bass?

[patman]

Just got a weather report boxed set...if it serves the music, a solo is cool...when you play jazz, you solo through the changes just like any other horn, over the song form.

[uwe]

I'm no great Jaco fan, but it was never about his choice of notes, more his rhythms and his sound that did not appeal to me. I could relate better to Stanley Clarke, his bass playing was somehow more macho than Jaco's introvert fiddlings (for the avoidance of doubt: yes, he was a great bass player!).

Many people seem to think that an electric bass guitar is the electric version of the double bass and should fill the same role. That misses a few important points because the role of  the double bass was inherently limited by acoustic factors, the duration of its tone (and how the percussive element is more dominant than with an electric bass), the strength it devours to play (especially the higher notes) and how difficult it is to project it forcefully in an otherwise electric setting/its sluggish tone emission. The electric bass GUITAR, otoh, has different options, gives different opportunities and one of the explanations of its (by now: lasting) success is that it is less limited than a double bass. To me, the musical place of a bass guitar is not the same place as a double bass, it rather ranks for me between double bass and, say, a cello (tuned in fifths rather than fourths, I know). A lot of Macca's bass lines are reminiscent of cello lines in my ear. Bass lines as widely diverse as what Chris Squire played/plays in yes and what Bernard Edwards played in Chic are unplayable on a double bass.

[patman]

I like earlier recordings of Jaco through Weather Report and before his descent into mental illness...

Like it or not, "Heavy Weather" is a classic...and Jaco's playing is revolutionary.

[amptech]

I'll continue my live/studio observations here; Jaco may be boring and complex on studio albums, but 8:30 (live album) is another great example of how his sound and energy was an important part of the band's puch. I've heard Jaco live stuff that has both raw energy, liveliness and sloppiness (before he was ONLY sloppy and doped out).  Not as sloppy as Stanley Clarke perhaps, but I think that an audience impacted his playing in a good way. I like the Black Market studio album as well. Jaco studio album, no thanks.

And early Stanley Clarke, good sounding stuff. Sloppy, pretentious, energic, and fuzzy. Great! In fact, Wheater's 8:30, RTF's no mystery,
Al Di Meola's Casino, Allan Holdsworth's I.O.U. and Jack Bruce's songs for a tailor - those are the 5 album's that took me away from the basic rock bass thing. Lots of bass solo's here, but they have a good sound of it's own - good music. I always continued to enjoy the rock element though, wheter in prog rock, space rock or just rock'n'roll. I still put AC/DC on the player if I throw a party (and there is not only male musicians invited)

[patman]

Black Market is definitely a personal favorite.

[uwe]

I like earlier recordings of Jaco through Weather Report and before his descent into mental illness...

Like it or not, "Heavy Weather" is a classic...and Jaco's playing is revolutionary.

Absolutely no dissent here. Heavy Weather is a classic. And Weather Report never had a bad bassist in their life, pre- or post-Jaco (or with him).

[4stringer77]

I've played Good Times on upright before. I'd be willing to bet NHOP could bust out Roundabout on his upright too.

[Pilgrim]

Many people seem to think that an electric bass guitar is the electric version of the double bass and should fill the same role. [snip]
The electric bass GUITAR, otoh, has different options, gives different opportunities...

Good points.  They are definitely two different instruments with two different sets of possible playing techniques. As a result, they are different in terms of the musical sounds they can produce.

That doesn't change my own personal preference for the style in which I play and prefer to hear.  Just because something is possible to play on an instrument doesn't mean it will appeal to all listeners, nor even that it's a good idea.

[westen44]

In looking over my opening post, I feel I might have not been articulate enough in trying to make my point.  In referring to holding down the bottom, I was simply stating my preference for the bass to sound powerful and deep, providing a meaningful foundation to the music itself.  Sometimes I see people say a bass should "play in the pocket," not try to get too fancy, serve the song, etc.  Those things may have their place from time to time, but I don't view the bass as something that plays a secondary role.  My favorite bassist Jack Bruce is the best example of what I like to hear from a bass. 

As for solos, when I say I don't like them, I am primarily referring to the wanking that I hear too much nowadays when people pick up a bass and start to play.  Go to any music store, listen to people trying out basses, and you can hear what I'm talking about.  I don't mean solos can't have a meaningful place in a rock song from time to time.  On a personal level, the best example I can think of was the bass solo Rinus Gerritsen played to introduce "Radar Love" when I heard Golden Earring play near Rotterdam in 2013.  Rinus is probably not going to be classified as being on the Jaco level, but I enjoyed that particular solo tremendously.  It's easy to understand why Steve Harris has stated that Rinus is one of the few people he has ever heard who can play a bass solo he would want to listen to.  That doesn't mean that it's going to turn out perfect every time, of course.  But in this particular instance, it was a pleasant surprise.  I do think, however, that this is the kind of thing which is by far best experienced in person.  You're not going to find anything like that on YouTube or even on a Golden Earring recording.  For one thing, it's unlikely you're going to find a 2 minute bass solo on most recordings.

Edit:

I've mentioned some of this before in a post from more than a year ago (about seeing Golden Earring, etc.)  But mentioning it again was intentional to try to illustrate my point.   

[4stringer77]

Jack could solo. Sweet profile pic Westen!

[westen44]

Jack could solo. Sweet profile pic Westen!

Great song.  I could listen to something like that all day.  As for the profile pic, a friend got really upset when the BBC didn't mention anything about Jack Bruce's death when they were summing up 2014.  (He is an American living in Europe.)  So in protest he decided to get some kind of Jack Bruce tattoo.  He asked me for ideas and I came across that JB painting on an art site.  He is going to stick with something simpler, but anyway, that's how I found it. 

[slinkp]

Pah, that's nothing! In the 80ies, our drummer would drum on the strings of my Kramer bass (an alu neck gives you confidence for this kind of thing) while I would move chords around. It sounded like machine gun slapping - eat your heart out Mark King! - and the audience loved it everytime!  You can't get more "combined drums 'n' bass solo". 

Tony Levin and Jerry Marotta did that on "Big Time"!  That was what Levin to invent those "Funk fingers" things he plays with sometimes.

[Dave W]

My point was, if it's played on an instrument tuned to bass frequencies, it's bass, whether I like it or not. Whether it's a bass guitar, string bass, tuba, bassoon or anything else.

Also, I don't think in terms of whether the bass part serves the song or not; what does that even mean? Either it sounds right to me in context, or it doesn't.

[gweimer]

In the beginning there was a bass. It was a Fender, probably a Precision, but it could have been a Jazz - nobody knows. Anyway, it was very old ... definitely pre-C.B.S.

And God looked down upon it and saw that it was good. He saw that it was very good in fact, and couldn't be improved on at all (though men would later try.) And so He let it be and He created a man to play the bass.

nd lo the man looked upon the bass, which was a beautiful 'sunburst' red, and he loved it. He played upon the open E string and the note rang through the earth and reverberated throughout the firmaments (thus reverb came to be.) And it was good. And God heard that it was good and He smiled at his handiwork.

Then in the course of time, the man came to slap upon the bass. And lo it was funky.

And God heard this funkiness and He said, "Go man, go." And it was good.

And more time passed, and, having little else to do, the man came to practice upon the bass. And lo, the man came to have upon him a great set of chops. And he did play faster and faster until the notes rippled like a breeze through the heavens.

And God heard this sound which sounded something like the wind, which He had created earlier. It also sounded something like the movement of furniture, which He hadn't even created yet, and He was not so pleased. And He spoke to the man, saying "Don't do that!"

Now the man heard the voice of God, but he was so excited about his new ability that he slapped upon the bass a blizzard of funky notes. And the heavens shook with the sound, and the Angels ran about in confusion. (Some of the Angels started to dance, but that's another story.)

And God heard this - how could He miss it - and lo He became Bugged. And He spoke to the man, and He said, "Listen man, if I wanted Jimi Hendrix I would have created the guitar. Stick to the bass parts."

And the man heard the voice of God, and he knew not to mess with it. But now he had upon him a passion for playing fast and high. The man took the frets off of the bass which God had created. And the man did slide his fingers upon the fretless fingerboard and play melodies high upon the neck. And, in his excitement, the man did forget the commandment of the Lord, and he played a frenzy of high melodies and blindingly fast licks. And the heavens rocked with the assault and the earth shook, rattled and rolled.

Now God's wrath was great. And His voice was thunder as He spoke to the man.

And He said, "O.K. for you, pal. You have not heeded My word. Lo, I shall create an soprano saxophone and it shall play higher than you can even think of."

"And from out of the chaos I shall bring forth the drums. And they shall play so many notes thine head shall ache, and I shall make you to always stand next to the drummer."

"You think you're loud? I shall create a stack of Marshall guitar amps to make thine ears bleed. And I shall send down upon the earth other instruments, and lo, they shall all be able to play higher and faster than the bass."

"And for all the days of man, your curse shall be this; that all the other musicians shall look to you, the bass player, for the low notes. And if you play too high or fast all the other musicians shall say "Wow" but really they shall hate it. And they shall tell you you're ready for your solo career, and find other bass players for their bands. And for all your days if you want to play your fancy licks you shall have to sneak them in like a thief in the night."

"And if you finally do get to play a solo, everyone shall leave the bandstand and go to the bar for a drink."

And it was so.

[gweimer]

I've never been much of a Jaco fan, viewing him as more technique over substance.  I'll take Jamerson any day, and some of his bass lines inside songs are solos in and of themselves.

Some of my favorite bass intros/solos:



And then, there's this (start at 6:10), which made me notice Paul Goddard