Flight MH 17

[Basvarken]

We are still in shock about the tragedy in Ukraine.
This speach of Dutch Minister of Foreign Affairs Frans Timmermans brought tears to my eyes.

[westen44]

I am totally outraged and have been so for days. 

[uwe]

It's horrible, Rob. And a slap in the face how "local conflicts" can affect everyone randomly.

Whoever downed that passenger plane, most likely didn't do it on purpose, but believed to be "shooting at the enemy" (insert your favorite enemy here). The forseeable political backlash would help neither the Ukraine nor the separatists, that was plain to see. Plus, The Netherlands aren't really a player in the Ukraine. As such, it wasn't a "terrorist act" (as it had no political aim), but even worse, totally senseless, arbitrary "collateral damage". Which brings us back to my first sentence: "Local conflicts" are catastrophies waiting to happen.

Hindsight is 20/20, but I do wonder why some airlines avoided flying over Ukraine and others did not. They knew they were shooting at aircraft there and bragging about it. The assumption that 10.000 meters would be "too high" for the rocket systems employed by both parties in the conflict was another accident waiting to happen - both Ukraine and the separatist had rockets that can go twice as high.

[tore00]

Really horrible. I cannot elaborate that.

[Dave W]

Well said, and needed to be said.

Outrage over the innocent lives lost, yes. Outrage against the perpetrators? Yes, but let's wait until we know for sure who the perpetrators were. Accident or not, nobody has anything to gain from this act.

I just hope those of us in the US understand that our government is engaged in a relentless propaganda campaign to demonize Russia. This is the same administration that knowingly lied about the Syrian gas attacks and nearly got us into another war. As yet, we don't know who shot the plane down or even if it was shot down from the ground-- Russia has suggested that a Ukranian military plane may have shot it down from in the air, and that's at least possible. Either side could have done it. Caution is in order until we know more.

[uwe]

Interestingly enough, no one is bragging about this military "feat".    I hope that Russian AND Ukranian military technology are too advanced for this to happen (otherwise I won't fly over any of these countries any time soon!), the Separatists might have blundered though.

Passenger planes have been shot down before - by regular armed forces trained to know better. Israel fighter jets did it with a Lybian passenger plane that had lost its way in 1973 ("it had no business being there and failed to identify itself", 108 deaths), Russian fighter jets did it with a South Korean carrier in 1983 ("we thought it spied and had warned before, it was loaded with US espionage equipment", 269 deaths), the USS Vincennes did it in 1988 with an Iranian passenger aircraft ("we thought it wanted to attack our missile cruiser", 290 deaths). The excuses were lame in all three cases (and don't hold water under international law, the requirements for being allowed to shoot down an unarmed passenger plane outside a formal state of war are incredibly high), the Ukranian incident is in so far especially bitter and tragic as Malaysia did not have the remotest thing to do with what is happening in Ukraine. The passenger jets downed in the past could "at least" be attributed to the "the enemy/ideological opponent" in the roundaboutest of ways (no excuse for any of these cases). Oh, and whoever did this now, beat the tragic "record" of the USS Vincennes by another 8 deaths of innocents.

For the sake of completeness: Both Russia and the US admitted their mistake in the aftermath and paid considerable reparations to the survivors (if any)/their descendants (I don't know about the Israeli case).

[Aussie Mark]

In some ways the desecration of the crash site and how the bodies have been treated is a bigger crime than the actual downing of the aircraft.  Wallets and luggage looted, no proper storage of bodies, amateurs (mine workers) doing the search and recovery of bodies and body parts etc.  Professionals from nations who had passengers on the plane were ready and able to do the search and recovery, however the rebels wouldn't let them into the area initially.  The refrigerated train that has now left the area only has around 200 bodies on board, so there are still almost 100 loved ones lying in fields and on the roofs of houses waiting to be claimed.

[Highlander]

Uwe, et al... there was some reporting here over that two senior military figures within the separatists on 2 facebook pages (theirs) that they had shot down a Ukrainian transport plane, with quite a lot of triumphant noise, until they realised what had happened; I believe they may now be down... and that bit of footage of the missile launcher leaving the area on a trailer, one missile short of a full load...

Latest reporting is that the Malaysians have asked that the UK (RAE Farnborough) do the data recovery on the FR's... data to be supplied to Holland and Ukraine...

Being the 2nd Malaysian 777 in such a short period is doing them no favours... rip...

[Pilgrim]

I just hope those of us in the US understand that our government is engaged in a relentless propaganda campaign to demonize Russia. This is the same administration that knowingly lied about the Syrian gas attacks and nearly got us into another war.

True, but the fact that the US admin is casting Russia as a "bad guy" doesn't mean that it isn't true.  And past misdeeds of our own government - numerous as they are - don't necessarily have a bearing on this tragic incident.

[westen44]

This is sadly and radically different than my post from a year ago when I had discussed seeing Golden Earring in concert in Holland (July 31st.)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/23/netherlands-pays-respects-victims_n_5614143.html

[gweimer]

My limited knowledge of all this, and in watching what is being said, leads to one possible theory.

Russia sends a rocket launcher to support Separatist activity, without any directions to actually use it.  Idiots with a new toy make an unauthorized decision, on their own, to shoot down a plane.  Russia retrieves weapon from idiots, now facing an international incident that was not planned, and should never happened.  Responsible idiots are never heard from again, or found.

[Aussie Mark]

My limited knowledge of all this, and in watching what is being said, leads to one possible theory.

Russia sends a rocket launcher to support Separatist activity, without any directions to actually use it.  Idiots with a new toy make an unauthorized decision, on their own, to shoot down a plane.  Russia retrieves weapon from idiots, now facing an international incident that was not planned, and should never happened.  Responsible idiots are never heard from again, or found.

That seems to be the general consensus.

[westen44]

It's the fog of war.  But one thing I do see and wholeheartedly believe:  Karma is a bitch. 

[Dave W]

My limited knowledge of all this, and in watching what is being said, leads to one possible theory.

Russia sends a rocket launcher to support Separatist activity, without any directions to actually use it.  Idiots with a new toy make an unauthorized decision, on their own, to shoot down a plane.  Russia retrieves weapon from idiots, now facing an international incident that was not planned, and should never happened.  Responsible idiots are never heard from again, or found.

I highly doubt that. The separatists are experienced in shooting down planes with buk missiles. They've been doing it for weeks; they shot down two Ukranian military planes yesterday. Whoever did this, whether it was from the ground or air, knew what they were doing and how to do it. It was a tragic case of mistaken identity.

True, but the fact that the US admin is casting Russia as a "bad guy" doesn't mean that it isn't true.  And past misdeeds of our own government - numerous as they are - don't necessarily have a bearing on this tragic incident.

It certainly could be true that the separatists were responsible. I'd say chances are better than not that they were responsible. What I'm saying is that any claims by US intelligence should be regarded as propaganda and hogwash. Same goes for Russian claims. There needs to be hard evidence. And past misdeeds aside, the US is actively engaged in a disinformation campaign about Ukraine and the corporate press goes along, as they always do.

Uwe, et al... there was some reporting here over that two senior military figures within the separatists on 2 facebook pages (theirs) that they had shot down a Ukrainian transport plane, with quite a lot of triumphant noise, until they realised what had happened; I believe they may now be down... and that bit of footage of the missile launcher leaving the area on a trailer, one missile short of a full load...

...

That audio clip claiming to be two separatists was taken down quickly after critics noticed that the original clip was uploaded to YT before the plane crash. There's no evidence that the missile launcher footage had anything to do with this.

[uwe]

In some ways the desecration of the crash site and how the bodies have been treated is a bigger crime than the actual downing of the aircraft.  Wallets and luggage looted, no proper storage of bodies, amateurs (mine workers) doing the search and recovery of bodies and body parts etc.  Professionals from nations who had passengers on the plane were ready and able to do the search and recovery, however the rebels wouldn't let them into the area initially.  The refrigerated train that has now left the area only has around 200 bodies on board, so there are still almost 100 loved ones lying in fields and on the roofs of houses waiting to be claimed.

That was extremely vile, true. But even those vile people very likely had nothing to do with whoever downed the plane.