A 20/20 on the 'bay!

[Highlander]

I can't remember exactly when in '41 it occurred (only a few months iirc), but according to Japanese historians (again, iirc, not gone down this research path for a while) it was the American Government declining to allow the Japanese access to fuel that was the primary catalyst, along with supplying armament to a force they had been actively fighting/annexing for about a decade.
It was inevitable that it was going to happen and I hate to say that they (the US Gov) asked for it but any historian worth his salt would say just the same thing, and the We The People paid the price, as they always do...
I know that this is an extremely sensitive subject to the American people but, it's like my dad's war, it was all about the oil and not about the Burmese people... they were incidental...
Japan had been in China and Korea for a decade in '41 and the old expression applies: my enemy's friends...

Probably best discussed elsewhere...

[uwe]

Have always held that: The US' engagement against Nazi Germany was a predominantly noble cause; the Pacific War one about markets, spheres of influence and the prevention of an empire of a rusty colonial power (the UK)  disintegrating too quickly with the spoils falling to a highly aggressive Asian military dictatorship (Japan) rather than to the new heir apparent/rising western hegemonial power (the US). That doesn't change the fact that the Tenno's men committed gross crimes almost everywhere or take away anything from the valor of the US Navy men in the Pacific.

[Highlander]

Amen ... and rip...

(and +1 about the UK)

[westen44]

Have always held that: The US' engagement against Nazi Germany was a predominantly noble cause; the Pacific War one about markets, spheres of influence and the prevention of an empire of a rusty colonial power (the UK)  disintegrating too quickly with the spoils falling to a highly aggressive Asian military dictatorship (Japan) rather than to the new heir apparent/rising western hegemonilal power (the US). That doesn't change the fact that the Tenno's men committed gross crimes almost everywhere or take away anything from the valor of the US Navy men in the Pacific.

As well as the U.S. Army men in the Pacific (such as my father.)  Air Force and Marines, too, of course. 

[westen44]

Have always held that: The US' engagement against Nazi Germany was a predominantly noble cause; the Pacific War one about markets, spheres of influence and the prevention of an empire of a rusty colonial power (the UK)  disintegrating too quickly with the spoils falling to a highly aggressive Asian military dictatorship (Japan) rather than to the new heir apparent/rising western hegemonial power (the US). That doesn't change the fact that the Tenno's men committed gross crimes almost everywhere or take away anything from the valor of the US Navy men in the Pacific.

A desire for more influence in the Pacific had been something that had existed for a long time, although it was very controversial.  James K. Polk certainly wanted California and its ports to expand influence into the Pacific.  I wouldn't even try to go into all the reasons for the Mexican War, but personally I think Polk wanting California was one of the main reasons.  He seemed to be very focused on the Pacific from what I've been able to gather. 

[Denis]

I can't remember exactly when in '41 it occurred (only a few months iirc), but according to Japanese historians (again, iirc, not gone down this research path for a while) it was the American Government declining to allow the Japanese access to fuel that was the primary catalyst, along with supplying armament to a force they had been actively fighting/annexing for about a decade.
It was inevitable that it was going to happen and I hate to say that they (the US Gov) asked for it but any historian worth his salt would say just the same thing, and the We The People paid the price, as they always do...
I know that this is an extremely sensitive subject to the American people but, it's like my dad's war, it was all about the oil and not about the Burmese people... they were incidental...
Japan had been in China and Korea for a decade in '41 and the old expression applies: my enemy's friends...
Probably best discussed elsewhere...

The US also declined to sell scrap steel to Japan, if I remember correctly.

True, Japan had been in China and Korea for quite a few years prior to 1941. Their troops' behavior explains why neither China nor Korea are the world's largest fans of Japan. How many Chinese did the Japanese kill? Several hundred thousand, wasn't it? Didn't they turn many, many thousands of women into sex slaves for the Japanese army's entertainment? What do Japanese historians say about that?

[patman]

Ask my 90 year old Dad about the Japanese. He will go to his grave with the grudge. He was an engineer...the Chinese were ok, not the Japanese. He was on Okinawa.

[uwe]

As well as the U.S. Army men in the Pacific (such as my father.)  Air Force and Marines, too, of course.

I had no intention of excluding anyone!!! But weren't the Marines part of the Navy and the pilots in the Pacific mostly Navy Airforce as opposed to USA(rmy)AF? Whatever, I herewith include all other parts of the US Armed Forces too. Historical question: Did the US Army even take part in the island hopping or was that all Marines?

[uwe]

"What do Japanese historians say about that?"

That is one huge can of worms, sigh! Japanese treatment of their less glorious WW II history is appalling and all self-denial and apologetic. I wouldn't mind their worshipping of their Kamikaze heroes if they managed an honest sorry about the other stuff too.

Also, US intervention, even if not spawned by the urge to liberate Asian nations from Japanese subjection, was certainly in so far a positive thing as it resulted in exactly that byproduct. Japanese genocide and war crimes were such in China and Korea that they deserved to be kicked out several times over.

[westen44]

I had no intention of excluding anyone!!! But weren't the Marines part of the Navy and the pilots in the Pacific mostly Navy Airforce as opposed to USA(rmy)AF? Whatever, I herewith include all other parts of the US Armed Forces too. Historical question: Did the US Army even take part in the island hopping or was that all Marines?

I just wanted to make sure everyone was included.  I should have ten times more info on this.  Unfortunately, a member of my family (and myself to an extent) lost a lot of the pertinent info.  However, just based on the general info that's out there (even just Wikipedia,) I can provide the basic points on what my father was involved in.  He was in the U.S. Army 25th Division which did fight in key battles in the Pacific.  Scrolling down to Pacific War and beginning with "the 25th began moving to Guadalcanal, 25 November, 1942, to relieve Marines near Henderson Field," he was involved in all of that, ending with Luzon and the liberation of the Philippines.  Of course, it's the battle of Guadalcanal which has always stuck out to me as being especially important.  He was in the thick of it; that's for sure.  Several months ago, I happened to catch the last part of that movie about Guadalcanal "Thin Red Line" on cable.  Since I only saw part of it, of course, much didn't make sense.  And although part of it is fictionalized, it does have some basis in reality.  For instance, the part about the U.S. Army soldiers relieving the Marines at Henderson Field, I do remember as a child my father talking about that.  Incidentally, those Marines were very glad to be relieved.  He said those were the happiest and friendliest people he had ever seen in his life.  Unfortunately, there isn't much I can say about anything, since my father very rarely said anything at all about World War II.  After four years, his service ended, though, and he wasn't involved in the occupation of Japan which the 25th Division participated in. 


I'm just going to have to copy and paste this Wikipedia info since I'm having trouble with the link. 

25th Infantry Division  (U.S. Army)


Pacific War[edit]


U.S. Army soldiers push supplies up the Matanikau River to support the 25th Infantry Division's offensive on Guadalcanal in January 1943.
After the Japanese air attack on Schofield Barracks, 7 December 1941, the 25th Infantry Division moved to beach positions for the defense of Honolulu and Ewa Point. Following intensive training, the 25th began moving to Guadalcanal, 25 November 1942, to relieve Marines near Henderson Field. First elements landed near the Tenaru River, 17 December 1942, and entered combat, 10 January 1943, participating in the seizure of Kokumbona and the reduction of the Mount Austen Pocket in some of the bitterest fighting of the Pacific campaign. The threat of large enemy attacks caused a temporary withdrawal, but Division elements under XIV Corps control relieved the 147th Infantry and took over the advance on Cape Esperance. The junction of these elements with Americal Division forces near the cape, 5 February 1943, ended organized enemy resistance.

A period of garrison duty followed, ending 21 July: On that date, advance elements debarked on Munda, New Georgia. The 25th Infantry, under the Northern Landing Force, took part in the capture of Vella Lavella, 15 August to 15 September 1943. Meanwhile, other elements landed on New Georgia, took Zieta, marched through jungle mud for 19 days, and captured Bairoko Harbor, winning the island. Elements cleared Arundel Island, 24 September 1943, and Kolombangara island with its important Vila Airport, 6 October. Organized resistance on New Georgia ended, 25 August, and the division moved to New Zealand for rest and training, last elements arriving on 5 December. The 25th was transferred to New Caledonia, 3 February-14 March 1944, for continued training.

The division landed in the San Fabian area of Luzon, 11 January 1945, to enter the struggle for the liberation of the Philippines. It drove across the Luzon Central Plain, meeting the enemy at Binalonan, 17 January. Moving through the rice paddies, the 25th occupied Umingan, Lupao, and San Jose and destroyed a great part of the Japanese armor on Luzon. On 21 February, the division began operations in the Caraballo Mountains. It fought its way along Highway No. 5, taking Digdig, Putlan, and Kapintalan against fierce enemy counterattacks and took Balete Pass, 13 May, and opened the gateway to the Cagayan Valley, 27 May, with the capture of Santa Fe. Until 30 June, when the division was relieved, it carried out mopping-up activities. On 1 July, the division moved to Tarlac for training, leaving for Japan, 20 September.

The division's rapid movements during its campaigns led to the adoption of the nickname Tropic Lightning. It remained on occupation duty in Japan for the next five years.

[Highlander]

True, Japan had been in China and Korea for quite a few years prior to 1941. Their troops' behavior explains why neither China nor Korea are the world's largest fans of Japan. How many Chinese did the Japanese kill? Several hundred thousand, wasn't it? Didn't they turn many, many thousands of women into sex slaves for the Japanese army's entertainment? What do Japanese historians say about that?

Korea was officially "annexed" in 1910 and there was an orchestrated occupation of Manchuria in 1931.
Chinese/Korean deaths was estimated nearer 3 million, but no one knows the real figure.
The women were euphemistically known as "comfort women" - it is a highly charged subject in the far-east - an official "apology" (of sorts) was issued 7 years back but it is still controversial and subject to "review", would you believe... many of their historians still deny it took place and the figures involved varies from 5 to 6 figures with the highest being over 400,000; estimates are that 3/4 of them never made it back - my dad's platoon (number 13, believe it or not) overrun one of these places and they chased them off into the jungle being "too tired to have done anything else" ... don't know what was worse for those women on that occasion, but they took no prisoners and they were behind the lines at the time, two months in; no weekends off ...

As for war crimes and atrocities, I've had to study it for my research and it is truly grim, and not for discussion here ... if you want some starters just use Japanese War Crime as a search, or maybe study Unit 731 ... equally as bad if not worse than anything you have ever heard regarding what happened in Poland and other European low-points ...

My personal most distasteful historical low is Macarthur keeping Hirohito as a figurehead for the Japanese people to focus on as it was the best sense business move they could make ... it worked, but for those involved it truly sucked, was generally kept secret, and no apology given (of a sort) by Japan until after he died, and yes, Hirohito was the very last wartime leader to die...

[uwe]

Keeping Hirohito as a figure head was a pragmatic move - not doing it would have cost further American and Japanese lives as a surrender leading to his abdication or worse trial for war crimes would have been inacceptable to the Japanese military Junta and a large part of the population and fighting armed forces of the Empire even after Nagasaki. The US would have needed to devastate another Japanese city with mostly women, children and old men or continue its casuality-prone island hopping.   

[Highlander]

I never understood dad's hatred of these people during his lifetime but since studying the events, and their denial of them since, I get a better picture, but I still would like to use "They Stopped At Two..." as a book title...

He held a view that the Americans (and I do quote him here) "wasted an opportunity to finish the job when they stopped at two." meaning the two nuclear weapons.

He really meant it ...

God forbid any of us ever has to face what these people went through...

MacArthur could have insisted that there was some sort of apology, but it never came ...

That is a disgrace... imho...

[westen44]

When it comes to MacArthur, that's about as controversial of a public figure as you'll find. 

I fired him because he wouldn't respect the authority of the President. I didn't fire him because he was a dumb son of a bitch, although he was, but that's not against the law for generals. If it was, half to three-quarters of them would be in jail.

--Harry S Truman (statement made in early 60s and quoted in a 1973 article in "Time")

[uwe]

I only recently read something interesting about Eisenhower (always a politically thinking general and not just a brasshead). When the Korean War wasn't going so well, the military aroundd him started thinking aloud about dropping a nuclear bomb on North Korea/China. And he was appalled and said something along the lines of: "Are you nuts, we cannot use the same weapon within only ten years again to kill Asians of all people!" He had a point there.

I know that the nuclear bomb was developed for Berlin and that it could have been viewed as just retribution for the Nazi crimes and that some jewish scientists would have, understandably, liked to have seen it used against Germany after all the horrors of their people. Not quite convinced though whether it would have actually been dropped over Berlin had the Third Reich not collapsed so quickly (within less than a year after D-Day). There was an element of "let's use it on the yellow man" in there - Japan was culturally far enough removed to make the use of the atomic bomb seem "bearable" from a Western point of view.