Full tube amp?

[Granny Gremlin]

Vintage Traynors are basically Marshall copies built much better with better parts.

Mainly the YBA-1(A) Bassmaster series (and the YGA guitar versions, which were basically the same amp but with tremelo, and possibly different tone stack, though I doubt it).  Other Traynors were distinctly Fender based (e.g. YGL-3 mk III: "Twin on steroids").  Traynor maintains that the influence went both ways (WRT Fender), though I wasn't there.

Garnet tended to be more Fender based in the early years, but with improvements to those old basic Fender designs, mostly in the power supply and input sections.  The Herzog distortion unit, for example, was a Champ circuit with a different output transformer to drive another amp vs a speaker, and the Rebel series was based on a Fenderish 6L6 power section, but the preamp was very Garnet.  Later there was some British amp influence, especially with the higher power models - so basically backwards to Traynor.

Anyway, to call either of these brands copies of something else is somewhat unfair because many improvements/modification in the circuit design were made, and it was mostly just the power sections that were similar (and in the case of many Traynors, the 4 input jacks on the front left that allowed daisy chaining the 2 input channels like a Plexi).  If anything they were Fender/Marshall mashups more so than copies of one or the other.

If you're adventurous, many old tube PA's make for excellent bass amps with very little modification.

I use old tube PA heads exclusively, so I concur.  I have a Bogen Challenger (LoZ inputs, so works for standard mics and my Gibson LP Triumph.... also good for the dirtiest guitar sound ever if that's what's required; you just gotta change the input jacks to 1/4" from whatever outdated jack type was on there originally; tube rectified tone monster, but only 33 watts, though IIIRC they also made a 50 and maybe higher powered models too, but in uglier, less portable chassis formats), a Garnet Rebel PA Reverb (same wattage but silicon rectified, reverb, master volume, and generally cleaner) and  Garnet Sessionman Reverb Vocal System which is 6CA7/EL34 based vs 6L6 on the Rebel series (both Garnets have standard HiZ instrument level inputs; no mods required at all).  I love the more neutral voicing of the EQ section, because I use them all for both Bass and Guitar, as well as keys or vocals sometimes.  They all have master volumes and a 4 channel mixer input section which is also handy.

A good bud has the Traynor tube PA head, The YVM-1 Voicemaster, which is very nice sounding as well but no reverb (fx loop to patch in the stand alone Traynor reverb unit) and the inputs are all on the back which is annoying.  He uses it mostly for keys but occasionally for a clean guitar.

[Psycho Bass Guy]

Anyway, to call either of these brands copies of something else is somewhat unfair

Traynor got started making amps precisely because Marshalls could not be reliably imported. The entire YBA series was based on Marshall 50 and 100 watt guitar and PA amps. There were minor tweaks, but the YBA series follows closely to Marshall circuit topology, specifically in regards to the design changes that separate Marshall designs from contemporary Fender offerings such as preamp r/c values, phase inverter design and output stage feedback, which Marshalls were copied from intially: the JTM-45 was more different than the tweed Bassman, which it is a direct copy of, than the YBA-1 is from the JTM-45. The very reason YBA-1's which used to be much more affordable sell so for so much today is that they are easily converted to Marshall "plexi" specs. After the success of the YBA series, Traynor branched out in circuit design, with the high point being the YBA-3A using four 6KG6 tubes to develop over 250 watts to compete with the Ampeg SVT. Even then, the most exotic aspect was the choice of output tube, which was used for horizontal deflection in televisions at the time.

[drbassman]

You guys blow me away!  You should get together and write a book about tube amp history.

[Denis]

I was just reading about the YBA 300 and it has 12 6L6s inside. I bet that sucker is louder than god.

[Granny Gremlin]

It's amazing how much Psycho and I can agree and disagree about something at the same time.  But generally I got little arg with that that isn't somewhat semantic or nitpicky (like how you say that the entire YBA series was Marshallesque, but then say not the YBA-3.... and ignore the YGA series altogether - I get what you mean, but you didn't express it accurately).

My point stands because they did a lot of non-Marshall things like make  Fenderish tube, and then solid state, reveb units.... and use 6L6 and 6V6 based power sections (as well as 6BQ5) on many amps after the YBA-1 and YBA-1A (and guitar, YGA, equivalents - which included a few combos).  Basically everything after the first product lineup was no longer so heavily Marshall based  (aside from the 4 input jacks); started to look at Fender more, even when the output was still 6CA7 ( the preamps were more Fenderish) like with the higher powered Guitar amps (YSR-1 Custom Reverb was a redesigned YBA-1 Bassmate using the same tube compliment but, apparently, a totally different circuit) and the YBA-3 Custom special and the YBA-3A Super Custom Special (both used 6CA7s though, not 6KG6s, though it wouldn't be that surprising to me if they   switched from one to the other at some point).

[Psycho Bass Guy]

You guys blow me away!  You should get together and write a book about tube amp history.

I have learned to keep much of the info I share in easily digestible and less-than-nitpicky form. That doesn't mean that I view the exchanges here as a collaberative effort, nor am I open to the idea. I saw firsthand how the Ampeg book glossed over and essentially made up much of their information about Ampeg during the 70's, the company's most successful years, and ones that I have firsthand knowledge about, and I have also seen much of that info passed around since it was published as fact on the internet by many so-called experts who have absolutely zero expertise ( ie- a cabinet designer/prolific poster on TB who likes to slam Ampeg's designs from the 60's and 70's based on nothing more than his own self promotion). I have also seen far too many suggestions by people perceived to be authorities with little to no basis in fact gain traction with very ludicrous suggestions in print and online. I'd rather simply point people in the direction of the actual facts and clear up murky details with little used tools like science and history.

[Psycho Bass Guy]

I was just reading about the YBA 300 and it has 12 6L6s inside. I bet that sucker is louder than god.

12 6L6GC's is roughly equal to six 6550A's, and is also the power tube complement of the Mesa Bass 400+, which is a 250 watt amp. The Traynor probably makes an honest 300 watts.

[Psycho Bass Guy]

(like how you say that the entire YBA series was Marshallesque, but then say not the YBA-3

I said the power section differed. The YBA-3 (4xEL34) and YBA-3A (4x 6KG) are the same amp otherwise, and VERY much like Marshalls.

.... and ignore the YGA series altogether - I get what you mean, but you didn't express it accurately).

If you understand the meaning, that's all that's necessary. The YBA series came first and the YGA series was added later with added features to market it towards guitarists. Besides, since the topic of discussion of this thread is bass amps, that's what I was talking about.

My point stands because they did a lot of non-Marshall things like make  Fenderish tube, and then solid state, reveb units.... and use 6L6 and 6V6 based power sections (as well as 6BQ5) on many amps after the YBA-1 and YBA-1A (and guitar, YGA, equivalents - which included a few combos)

I never said it didn't. What I DID say was that Traynor's YBA series were better made Marshall copies and you got all upset about it.

YBA-3 Custom special and the YBA-3A Super Custom Special (both used 6CA7s though, not 6KG6s, though it wouldn't be that surprising to me if they   switched from one to the other at some point).

You are incorrect. I have seen, played through, and worked on a YBA-3A and it used 6KG6 output tubes and was not modified, but you don't have to take my word for it.

http://www.0rigami.com/vb/models.html#supercustomspecialyba-3a
http://www.0rigami.com/vb/traynor_customspecial_yba3a_all.pdf

[Granny Gremlin]

I'll see your bet and raise you with the Official Source (from Yorkville/Traynor's own website) vs those fan pages:

http://www.yorkville.com/products.asp?type=71&cat=46&id=293#yba3

Like I said, they may have changed the power section partway through the life span of these models, but the (arguably, few) I have seen or used were 6CA7.  They're just too heavy and expensive for me to bother with.

PS I wasn't upset about anything.  You seem to not want to understand what I am saying but defend somewhat misleading categorical statements (and ignore accidental contradictions) you've made. Not all YBAs were Marshall based. Basically there was the YBA-1 and  YBA-1A (also YBA-4 and YBA-5 which were the later combo versions of those same amps) and that's about it (if we're ignoring amps designed for/marketed as  being for guitar).   That leaves the YBA-2 (6V6), 2A (6BQ5), 2B (6BQ5) as having little Marshallness to them. ... and of course the YBA-3 and 3A which were kind of a Marshall/Ampeg mashup.

Also: A Plexi is a guitar amp so why did you bring it up if that's how you feel about me bringin up the YGAs (which are used by bassists FYI, because its the same amp as the YBA-1 as mentioned)   (< rhetorical FYI)

Play fair, dude.  It's not a competition for anyone to win or loose. I'm not trying to take your amp expert title away from you; nobody knows everything all the time and though you are very knowledgeable, and I appreciate that, you are not always the best at communicating that knowledge.  I was trying to fill in the gaps, but it appears that you took it personal.

[Psycho Bass Guy]

I'll see your bet and raise you with the Official Source (from Yorkville/Traynor's own website) vs those fan pages:

Those "fan pages" have been around much longer than Yorkville's "Traynor" section, and if you'll note the second link I posted was to a .pdf of the owners manual from Traynor.

http://www.yorkville.com/products.asp?type=71&cat=46&id=293#yba3

Further to that, there is absolutely NO mention of output tube types, but it does say that the YBA-3A had double the power of the YBA-3. How do you explain this feat using the same type of output tube?

Like I said, they may have changed the power section partway through the life span of these models, but the (arguably, few) I have seen or used were 6CA7.  They're just too heavy and expensive for me to bother with.

The YBA-3A was designed from the ground up to compete with the Ampeg SVT (and it does quite well). I'll venture you've never seen one, only its similarly named smaller sibling, and thus, don't understand that it is a separate model and not some mythical "revision." The 6KG6 tubes actually have a slight green glow around the top plate cap under operation

You seem to not want to understand what I am saying but defend somewhat misleading categorical statements (and ignore accidental contradictions) you've made.

...and you have yet to grasp that I am speaking in broad generalities intentionally, and the information I am giving is correct while you fret over irrelavent minutae while making many categorically fundemantal incorrect statements.

Not all YBAs were Marshall based. Basically there was the YBA-1 and  YBA-1A (also YBA-4 and YBA-5 which were the later combo versions of those same amps) and that's about it (if we're ignoring amps designed for/marketed as  being for guitar).   That leaves the YBA-2 (6V6), 2A (6BQ5), 2B (6BQ5) as having little Marshallness to them. ... and of course the YBA-3 and 3A which were kind of a Marshall/Ampeg mashup.

Let me put this a little more plain: I don't care. I could take you through the schematics and show how all the circuits, inlcuding the EL84 and 6V6 models, are still very similar to Marshall designs with only minor variation, but it would be a waste of my time as you would only try to find some way to cloud and prolong an issue that is only a minor point  and not germane to this discussion anyway. It's clear that you like to throw around numbers and designations, and it's also clear that you don't actually understand what a lot of them mean, though you think you do.

Also: A Plexi is a guitar amp so why did you bring it up if that's how you feel about me bringin up the YGAs (which are used by bassists FYI, because its the same amp as the YBA-1 as mentioned)   (< rhetorical FYI)

Marshall Plexis came in PA, Guitar, and Bass models, all based off the Bass (no pun intended) model.

Play fair, dude.  It's not a competition for anyone to win or loose.

I'm not being competetive, just factual. If you don't like being corrected, learn what you're talking about.

I'm not trying to take your amp expert title away from you

There is no "title." The only competiton that exists is in your head and you have been very antagonistic, both to me and others, quite needlessly. I have absolutely NO doubts that if you had to do any actual work to a tube amp, you'd be completely lost and all of your internet bravado and stubbornness could not overcome the laws of physics.

nobody knows everything all the time and though you are very knowledgeable, and I appreciate that, you are not always the best at communicating that knowledge.

As I said earlier, I learned that much of my info must be simplified. In YOUR quest to expound my comments beyond that, you consistently post factually incorrect information and do so in an incredibly antagonizing manner. My days of writing near technical papers for the benefit of an anonymous internet audience are over. There is nothing that I have ever alluded to that some simple research cannot clarify for any interested party without me generating tomes that glaze over the eyes of the less technically inclined in the audience.

I was trying to fill in the gaps, but it appears that you took it personal.

There were no "gaps." My comment is accurate. Yours, however, are not. That's not personal.

[Dave W]

Give it a rest, Jake.

[Aussie Mark]

I was just reading about the YBA 300 and it has 12 6L6s inside. I bet that sucker is louder than god.

It is.  I sold mine last year because it was TOO loud - would be great for a stadium gig, but even in the largest of the venues I play in and the biggest stages I never had the master past 10 o'clock.  Very good clean tone though - and well built and engineered.  The DIY biasing LEDs are a great touch.  And, around half the weight of an SVT head.

[Psycho Bass Guy]

You DO realize you're giving me GAS, don't you Mark?

[gearHed289]

Here's a cool article on the history of Yorkville Sound if you're into Traynor history.

http://www.msretailer.com/msr/jack-long-%E2%80%A2-chairman-long-mcquade-and-yorkville-sound/

[drbassman]

Here's a cool article on the history of Yorkville Sound if you're into Traynor history.

http://www.msretailer.com/msr/jack-long-%E2%80%A2-chairman-long-mcquade-and-yorkville-sound/

I am impressed with the Traynors.  A lot of amp, watts and features for the money!  I live close enough to Buffalo and a dealer to try one out some day.