The difference between ignorance and stupidity....

[westen44]

Is that really the case that the movies have portrayed the South darkly? Ever since Gone with the Wind and Rhett Butler's caustic patriotism (he knew and predicted the South would lose - remember the scene at a Tara party at the beginning of the war where he tells it all the other guests who are in an alcohol-fueled victorious and exhuberant mood -, yet still fought with the Confederacy, but then quickly made friends with the occupying Union officers, only to save that dimwit Ashley from a KKK meeting raided by Union soldiers). He wasn't a negative figure. Neither was Yancie Derringer or whoever Patrick Swayzee played in North and South, the series. A Confederate officer, a plantation owner, a proud man, but no whip-cracking monster.

Even in the Spaghetti Westerns, most of the lonely restless heroes were former Confederate soldies coming to grips with a lost war. Lee van Cleef in The Good, the Bad & The Ugly was a villainous and opportunistic Union officer.

It has been a long time since I read it, but there is a good book which addresses this issue called "Media-Made Dixie:  The South in the American Imagination" by Jack Temple Kirby.  I think he is more optimistic about it than I am, but all of this is subjective anyway.  This kind of thing does come and go in waves, although it seems to me that in more recent times things have been more negative than positive.  I really don't see anything comparable to "Gone With The Wind" as a movie or Yancy Derringer as a TV series.  These were exceptional and positive.  Even in literature (in which the South seems to have received a lot of  recognition,) as often as not you're going to have someone writing about how screwed up things were in the South, the way William Faulkner did.  Not that there is anything wrong with Faulker, of course.  I'm just saying there seems to be some kind of craving to hear about the dark side of the South when it comes to popular culture.  When it's something light, you might have something really stupid like "The Beverly Hillbillies," or "The Dukes of Hazard."  Even the "Andy Griffith Show" was lacking in many ways, in my opinion.  In general, when I see something about the south in the movies or on TV, I tend not to like it very much, mostly because it's so unrealistic.  Yet people are going to see that and obviously get an impression from it.  What else could they be expected to do?  The Dutch, for instance, get really weary of people talking about windmills, tulips, pot, wooden shoes, coffee shops, etc.  Who can blame them?  If someone thinks that is what defines the Netherlands, then they're not even trying to understand the place.  So, maybe they get offended when things like this happen, and I don't blame them.  I also get offended when I keep seeing caricatures of the South in popular culture.  One positive exception, however, might be the image of the Southern woman, the Southern belle so to speak.  Sometimes that image you might see in the movies or on TV is not too far from the truth, and that's a good thing.  Sometimes it's exaggerated, of course, but there is a lot of truth to the mystique of the Southern woman, in my opinion.  I've always been pretty impressed.  I think I'm not alone in feeling that way.  There is something about this place which seems to bring out the best in women, and I have to say I honestly don't understand it myself.  

Edit:  In response to what you said about "The Birth of a Nation" and the reaction to the Civil Rights movement, I do agree.  Jack Temple Kirby goes into some detail on "The Birth of a Nation," too. 

[uwe]

"your native son Christoph Waltz"

Ouch, he's Austrian! They are only a part of Germany as long as we are winning world wars (something always gets in the way), once the fortunes of war turn they resume "we were invaded by Germany"-mode.   But Waltz is great.  Those first 15 minutes of Inglourious Basterds are in the pantheon of alltime movie highlights. And the change from describing himself proudly "You know how they call me the jew hunter ..." in the beginning of the movie to "... that was just a term attached to me by others, I'm not more than a police officer doing my job" towards the end encapsulates Germany's post-war collective lie and displacement reaction as well as national shame about the Shoah in two sentences!

Tarantino hates racism rigorously, the black and white love story in Inglourious Basterds is probably a stronger message for him than the Jewish soldiers. He loves black culture - just look at his obsession with Blaxploitation flics. I just saw an interview with him before Christmas where he said - movie buff he is - that he hates all John Ford Westerns irrespective of cineastic quality for the simple reason that John Ford was a racist and even played as an extra in The Birth of a Nation. I think Django comes a little late to do the South any harm. The Dixie Chicks were already there before, people differentiate a bit more these days.

[4stringer77]

Woops my bad. Guess I figured he was German because of his last two roles. That surprises me that Tarantino doesn't like Ford's movies. Wagner was antisemetic but I still appreciate the value of the music he composed.

[4stringer77]

... and I still dig Lars Von Trier's movies despite his disasterous press conference.

[uwe]

Trier is no Nazi and never was - he would have been among the first to either be exiled or sent to a concentration camp in 1933. Just the type of nihilist jewish-infiltrated intellect and anarchist mind the Nazi's loathed.

Whether you thought that that ill-fated press conference was especially smart and in good taste is another matter. Dogville was art though, no two ways about it, and a cruel depiction of what Tom Waits once described as "if there is one thing to say about mankind then it is that there is nothing kind about man".

Waltz played an Austrian in Basterds too, his Austrian accent (in the German version) and charm was all over. "Landa" is an Austrian name. It is a historic fact that the Austrians had an outsize share of Nazi greats (there was much resentment in the "Altreich" in 1938 after the "Anschluss" of Austria how quickly the new "Germans" were suddenly climbing the career ladder in Third Reich organisations, Hitler probably did not so much want to favor his countrymen as corrupt them and tie them in) - something they conveniently wanted to forget about after 1945.

[westen44]

I've been having to do a lot of things today and haven't had a chance to fully focus on what I've said myself or what other people have said, either.  Getting back to what I said about the South bringing out the best in women; that may be true.  I wouldn't be able to exactly explain why, but I do believe it's probably true.  On the other hand, the South may tend to bring out the worst in men, in general of course.  What does bother me is the assumption that racism is worse than it really is.  It does exist in some cases, and it definitely existed in the past.  But as someone living in a multi-racial family (not my immediate family but very close relatives,) it can be offensive when I see the stereotype which purports that the majority of Southerners are racists.  Of course, not living here, people might not have any idea that that isn't true.  But what you see in movies and on TV simply does not help the situation at all. 

[westen44]

Trier is no Nazi and never was - he would have been among the first to either be exiled or sent to a concentration camp in 1933. Just the type of nihilist jewish-infiltrated intellect and anarchist mind the Nazi's loathed.

Whether you though that that ill-fated press conference was especially smart and in good taste is another matter. Dogville was art though, no two ways about it, and a cruel depiction of what Tom Waits once described as "if there is one thing to say about mankind then it is that there is nothing kind about man".

Waltz played an Austrian in Basterds too, his Austrian accent (in the German version) and charm was all over. It is a historic fact that the Austrians had an outsize share of Nazi greats - something they conveniently wanted to forget about after 1945.

I also don't believe Lars Von Trier is a Nazi.  He does things like that just because that's the way he is as a person.  I seriously doubt if any of it has anything at all to do with Nazism.  I've enjoyed many of his movies very much.  If, however, you look at the expressions on Kirsten Dunst's face during the press conference, it is very amusing.

[uwe]

I've been having to do a lot of things today and haven't had a chance to fully focus on what I've said myself or what other people have said, either.  Getting back to what I said about the South bringing out the best in women; that may be true.  I wouldn't be able to exactly explain why, but I do believe it's probably true.  On the other hand, the South may tend to bring out the worst in men, in general of course.  What does bother me is the assumption that racism is worse than it really is.  It does exist in some cases, and it definitely existed in the past.  But as someone living in a multi-racial family (not my immediate family but very close relatives,) it can be offensive when I see the stereotype which purports that the majority of Southerners are racists.  Of course, not living here, people might not have any idea that that isn't true.  But what you see in movies and on TV simply does not help the situation at all. 

It's not my view of the South anymore. Things have changed. And of course racism was never restricted to the South either.

[westen44]

It's not my view of the South anymore. Things have changed. And of course racism was never restricted to the South either.

That gets back to the earlier statement I made about about sometimes feeling more at ease in Europe than I do in my own country.  I don't have to bother as much with the stereotypical image of a Southerner there as I do in some places here.  I make enough mistakes on my own without also being blamed for mistakes other people have made. 

[4stringer77]

I think Lars was just pulling everyone's leg but probably could have chose a less touchy subject. I've only seen Dancer in the Dark, Melancholia and couldn't quite make it through Antichrist, call me squeamish. Thanks for the tip on Dogville, I'll have to check it out. btw, everyone I've met from the south has been real friendly.

[westen44]

I think Lars was just pulling everyone's leg but probably could have chose a less touchy subject. I've only seen Dancer in the Dark, Melancholia and couldn't quite make it through Antichrist, call me squeamish. Thanks for the tip on Dogville, I'll have to check it out. btw, everyone I've met from the south has been real friendly.

I've seen Medea, Europa, the Kingdom I and II, Dogville, and Melancholia.  I'm sure there are more.  I liked all of them, although I may prefer Medea and Melancholia. 

[dadagoboi]

I've seen Medea, Europa, the Kingdom I and II, Dogville, and Melancholia.  I'm sure there are more.  I liked all of them, although I may prefer Medea and Melancholia. 

I like Trier's work, I refuse to call him by his self designated 'Von'.

As far as racism in the South, having lived 1/2 my life here, it still exists IMO.  The number of minorities in the police and fire departments is close to nil in the county I live in, despite a large black population.  I've never seen a black county maintenance worker.  You don't see that in the North

The Louisiana town I lived in the 90s had an over 50% black population, no blacks were police or firemen or worked in Parish or city maintenance jobs.  The POLITE word for blacks among the upper class was still "nigra."  I don't think it's changed much.

I worked at The Whisky A Go Go in the late Seventies, all the waitresses were southern belles (I married one).  I remember asking the manager, Jimmy LaPenna, why so many?  He said, "You think I want to deal with a bunch of women from New York?  I'm from Brooklyn, I saw his point.

[westen44]

I like Trier's work, I refuse to call him by his self designated 'Von'.

As far as racism in the South, having lived 1/2 my life here, it still exists IMO.  The number of minorities in the police and fire departments is close to nil in the county I live in, despite a large black population.  I've never seen a black county maintenance worker.  You don't see that in the North

The Louisiana town I lived in the 90s had an over 50% black population, no blacks were police or firemen or worked in Parish or city maintenance jobs.  The POLITE word for blacks among the upper class was still "nigra."  I don't think it's changed much.

I worked at The Whisky A Go Go in the late Seventies, all the waitresses were southern belles (I married one).  I remember asking the manager, Jimmy LaPenna, why so many?  He said, "You think I want to deal with a bunch of women from New York?  I'm from Brooklyn, I saw his point.

I have spent some time in Louisiana and there was more racism there than I was expecting.  But I can't imagine living somewhere where blacks were not well-represented in the the fire and police departments.  Black policemen are especially common here.  

As for the South, I'll reiterate that its women have always been its most impressive feature.  I don't understand them; I do like them, however.  Understanding women is not something I've been able to do very well ever, though, and I'm sure that would apply to women in any country or location.  I wish I were only joking, but sadly, I am not.  

Note:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0999913/


This movie which I saw less than an hour ago on cable illustrates many of the points I've been trying to make.  The original 1971 version is well-known, but this one has a number of differences.  

James Mardsen--the embattled, resilient outsider
Kate Bosworth--the hot (but brave) Southern belle
Alexander Skarsgaard--evil redneck
James Woods--evil redneck
Rhys Coiro--evil redneck
Billy Lush--evil redneck
etc., etc.

[Darrol]

I am a little late to the discussion but had never seen this clip from Are You Smarter Than A Fifth Grader before now. I really wouldn't be surprised if she is just putting on an act similar to Daniel Whitney with Larry the Cable Guy. Either way, there are plenty of people out there that are at this level in reality. For example, it is rare but I actually come across people my age from time to time that believe that the Earth is bigger than the Sun.

There is definitely a problem with ignorance on varying levels. Personally, school felt like a waste of time to me so I did the minimum even though I could have easily done well. It was a mistake on my part and there are plenty of others that have fallen into that same trap but I think a bigger part of the problem may be technology in a way. I will be 24 next week which puts me at the start of this generation where computers and the internet has readily been available to us. There is all this information at our fingertips and what do we do with it? Push it aside to watch cat videos on Youtube. Youtube is one of those things that is great for was it was made for but has been used for the wrong reason. There are some good examples there with all the cat videos, the guy jumping onto the frozen pool, and

The video of the guy and the frozen pool opens up a whole different problem with common sense. I could probably go on but it is best that I stop there.

[nofi]

westen, may i ask where in the south you live.