The difference between ignorance and stupidity....

[uwe]

The minute she drawled "Hung-ray, that's a count-ray? I 'eard o' Turkeeee ..." I thought that is just too witty a deadpan for someone to have no idea. She might or might not have known where Budapest lies, even people in Germany sometimes confuse Bucharest (Bulgaria) and Budapest (Hungary). I'd say it's probably more important to know where Hungary emerged from historically than to be good at this trivial pursuit capital spotting. I couldn't off-hand tell you the capital of Moldova either, it sure ain't Moscow anymore   (it's Chisinau, never heard of it, I had to google it).

If you know a little Hungarian history, then this might be funny:

The late Otto von Habsburg, descendant of the Austrian Kaiser, was a Conservative member of the European Parliament. Not for Austria btw, but for Germany (there is - momentarily at least - a difference between the two!). He wasn't allowed to even visit Austria unless he would have declared a waiver of all throne aspirations (all of the Habsburg family have to do that to enter the country, it's in the Austrian Constitution, he steadfastly refused until his death). Anyway there was a joke about him as follows:

It's late afternoon, the European Parliament in Strassbourg is almost empty.

Otto looks around puzzled:. "Where are all the others?" he asks one of the few female colleagues still around.

His colleague replies: "On the way home to watch soccer, European Cup."  

Otto quizzically: "Who's playing then?"

The colleague: "Austria-Hungary".

Otto quite puzzled now and a little impatient: "And the other team?!"

See, that is why they didn't allow him back.  

[westen44]

This thread is a perfect illustration of why in many cases I feel more at ease in Europe than I do in my own country.  Also, it isn't surprising that my best friend is Dutch.  In general, Europeans don't carry an anti-Southern bias with them and are less inclined to feel free in bashing rednecks.  Redneck bashing, however, is still alive and well in the U.S.  As for Kellie Picker, I have heard a few things about her, mostly because I have a close relative who likes American Idol.  So, sometimes I get to hear about American Idol trivia whether I feel like it or not.  Personally, I'm not very interested in her because I don't like country music.  Both of Kellie's parents physically and emotionally abused her and both have spent time in prison.  Her father was still in prison when Kellie was on American Idol.  I don't know how old she was when it happened, but I think the last straw for her was when her mother threatened to kill her with a kitchen knife.  It was at some point after that that Kellie started being raised by other relatives.  I don't know how much time Kellie Pickler had to study Eastern European history in high school, but probably not much.  Maybe she was more concerned with finding a way to stay alive.  I bet she also doesn't know that the Magyars settled Hungary or that Hungarian is a non-Indo-European language sharing some characteristics with Basque. 

I spend a lot of time watching music videos on YouTube.  Through the years, I've seen the Kellie Pickler video posted several times by different people.  In general, it seems to attract comments from people wanting to criticize the U.S. in general.  It has become somewhat of a minor propaganda tool.  However, I feel Jeff Foxworthy and others involved in producing the show used poor judgment in releasing it in the first place.  It isn't funny, it accomplished nothing, but maybe it got them some ratings.  Obviously, that was their only goal and is all they care about. 

[gweimer]

I know of Hungary because Bridge At Andau was required reading in my High School.  It's a chilling book, and a look at true revolution.  It's hard to read of 12 year old boys strapping hand grenades to their chest and running out in front of tanks and crawling under them to stop them.

[Granny Gremlin]

This thread is a perfect illustration of why in many cases I feel more at ease in Europe than I do in my own country.  Also, it isn't surprising that my best friend is Dutch.  In general, Europeans don't carry an anti-Southern bias with them and are less inclined to feel free in bashing rednecks.  Redneck bashing, however, is still alive and well in the U.S.  

That's only because they have Pikies, Pakis, Gorale (Polish highlanders), Turks and other similarly marginalized-by-being-the-butt-of-jokes-if-not outright-victims-of racist-action-or-policy groups of their own.  

The redneck thing in the US is humourous only.  In Europe some of this stuff is actually violent (see especially the bit about Turks in Germany and, lest we forget, Muslims generally in Norway, and all this without going back into evern recent history; White Riot anyone? ).

Further, there's the huge racial irony of anyone whining about redneck/Southern bias.

[Pilgrim]

There are plenty of highly intelligent and capable kids in the US, and they are impressive.  I've been on scholarship review boards and I'm stunned by the applications of most of the kids...their academic and service achievements coming out of high school exceed what mine were 5 years after college!  There are fantastic kids all across the US, and there are many communities where schools are healthy and supportive.

I firmly believe that school can't fix what's wrong outside of school, which includes the community surroundings and the parent(s). Cultures and locales where academics are ignored or discouraged are found all across the US.  Some groups want their kids to go to work instead of even attending high school, and are actively discouraged from going to college.  Broken families with single income parents living in neighborhoods where it's dangerous even to walk to school contribute to lost kids and gang activity. 

Working in higher ed, I see successful students who navigate the system and enter college.  There are more impressive kids in the pipeline than there have ever been.  But IMO those who are not prepared are generally suffering the impacts of family and community settings which put them in a hole to start with.  If we want to improve that, we're going to have to solve issues with low income families, gangs, cultural issues that point kids away from higher ed, and of course, get public schools to do what they're supposed to.  In communities which don't suffer from all the issues I've mentioned, the public schools work just fine. 

Sure, there are lots of foreign students in our Computer Science, Engineering and other hard-core science programs.  There are also lots of traditional students from traditional US backgrounds.  The foreign students stand out because their numbers have increased and they're easy to spot.

[Dave W]

I couldn't off-hand tell you the capital of Moldova either, it sure ain't Moscow anymore  (it's Chisinau, never heard of it, I had to google it).

That's because it was called Kishinev for a couple hundred years under Russian and Soviet rule. Site of an infamous Czarist pogrom.

[uwe]

I have a low-pc admission to make to hearten all you rednecks: As a child I thought the Rebel grey of the Confederate toy soldiers (whether Timpo Toys Or Airfix) looked cooler than the Union Blue ...





I also thought that General Lee looked better and somehow more benevolent than all the Union generals. When without parental supervison, I sometimes even let the Greys (in real life: more butterscotch, but I didn't know that back then) be the good guys (black slaves were neither obtainable from Airfix nor from Timpo Toys, so I could conveniently ignore that little historic aspect, even though I read a German translation of Uncle Tom's Cabin when I got it for my Communion, the opening scene with the plantation-owner/slave-trader eating an orange is etched in my mind though I haven't read the book since then), they were also more rare to get though I had a reasonable bunch of them (always the collector!).

I hope that takes some weight of your shoulders!   My favorite Southern quote is from a Dr. Hook member (it might have been Ray Sawyer) who said: "I came from the South where we talk slow and I went to New York where people talk fast, but just because I talk slow doesn't mean I think slow ...".

[Denis]

I have a low-pc admission to make to hearten all you rednecks: As a child I thought the Rebel grey of the Confederate toy soldiers (whether Timpo Toys Or Airfix) looked cooler than the Union Blue ...

You really do need a Rebel Flag Victory, Uwe.

[Rob]

I've never really paid much attention to her intelligence level.   

Valid observation!

However, I thought the answer was "a thin line crossed by many"

[Highlander]

Re modelling...

Is HO OO SCALE a painful and nasty condition...?

[uwe]

You really do need a Rebel Flag Victory, Uwe.

If I ever saw one, I'd be tempted severely let me tell you! But a the same time I would most likely never play it in public because I don't believe in anything the Confederacy stood for. That said, I really like the look of the flag (even though the Union Stars and Stripes is nice too; always hated the look of the swastika flag in comparison, it looks as gross as the ideology it stood for). I can live with the fact that someone like Lynyrd Skynyrd runs the rebel flag, irksome as some of their political views are (new album is really good), but I cannot live with the fact that something as despicable as the KKK has adopted/hijacked it too.

[westen44]

I have a low-pc admission to make to hearten all you rednecks: As a child I thought the Rebel grey of the Confederate toy soldiers (whether Timpo Toys Or Airfix) looked cooler than the Union Blue ...





I also thought that General Lee looked better and somehow more benevolent than all the Union generals. When without parental supervison, I sometimes even let the Greys (in real life: more butterscotch, but I didn't know that back then) be the good guys (black slaves were neither obtainable from Airfix nor from Timpo Toys, so I could conveniently ignore that little historic aspect, even though I read a German translation of Uncle Tom's Cabin when I got it for my Communion, the opening scene with the plantation-owner/slave-trader eating an orange is etched in my mind though I haven't read the book since then), they were also more rare to get though I had a reasonable bunch of them (always the collector!).

I hope that takes some weight of your shoulders!   My favorite Southern quote is from a Dr. Hook member (it might have been Ray Sawyer) who said: "I came from the South where we talk slow and I went to New York where people talk fast, but just because I talk slow doesn't mean I think slow ...".

I found a Dutch translation long ago of "Uncle Tom's Cabin."  It has been many years since I read it in English, though.  That's a good quote and I can identify with that.  The same might be said for Portuguese and Spanish.  Portuguese is spoken slightly slower and is easier for me to understand.  Or at least it used to be; I'm very much out of practice now and have forgotten a lot of it. 

[westen44]

In regard to the image of the South in the imagination, it seemed much of that has been shaped by the media itself, going back at least to the films of the 1930s.  All of this is subject to a lot of interpretation, but it seems there may have been more of a spirit of reconciliation between North and South in the years following the Civil War than may be apparent now.  You have, for example, stories of Union and Confederate veterans getting together and talking about the war and that sort of thing.  In the Spanish-American War, General Joe Wheeler who had fought for the Confederacy was now fighting for the Union.  (Although supposedly in one battle he got mixed up and called the Spaniards Yankees.)  No one thing can be pinpointed, but movies of the 30s onward began portraying Southerners as evil, ignorant, and that sort of thing.  This seemed to be intensified by what was shown on TV.  I was in Ohio once in the early 80s, and someone said to me much of what he knew about the South is what he learned from watching "The Dukes of Hazard."  A teacher from Ohio said he had driven through places like Alabama once and was very disappointed he didn't see any plantations.  I was talking to an Ohio principal once about a possible trip I might take to South America.  I had mentioned something about speaking some Spanish.  She said something to the effect that it would be difficult since my Spanish would sound so much like Spanish dominated by a Southern accent.  I was astounded when I quickly realized she was assuming my Southern accent would carry over into my Spanish, almost like it was something like a speech impediment.  Native speakers of Spanish have told me this is not the case.  If there is any criticism of my Spanish, it is that I might sound more like Pope John Paul II speaking Spanish than a Southerner.  It isn't a Southern accent, but it does sound somewhat wooden to a native speaker, like the Ecuadorian girl once told me when she said my Spanish reminded her of the Pope speaking Spanish.  Of course, I have had other native Spanish speakers, though, make more complimentary comments by saying that my Spanish accent was pretty good.  But the point is having a Southern accent in speaking English has nothing at all to do with speaking Spanish, at least for me.  Then there is the question of the Southern accent itself.  Some Americans think it's quite an accent, some thing it's slight, others can't hear a Southern accent at all.  I even had one guy from Colorado ask me if I was from New York City.  In Holland, I once had someone ask me if I was from Canada.  When I was in Ireland for months one time, I didn't have a single person who had any difficulty at all in understanding me.  In fact, it was obvious they could understand me much better than some other Americans do.  I do, however, seem to pick up whatever accent I'm around.  In the case of Ireland, some people from Holland I was around quite a lot told me that I was beginning to speak in a very slight Irish accent.  I think I did faintly hear that myself right before I left to go back to America.  If you're somewhere for several months, I think that kind of thing can happen to anybody, even if it isn't intentional. 

[uwe]

Is that really the case that the movies have portrayed the South darkly? Ever since Gone with the Wind and Rhett Butler's caustic patriotism (he knew and predicted the South would lose - remember the scene at a Tara party at the beginning of the war where he tells it all the other guests who are in an alcohol-fueled victorious and exhuberant mood -, yet still fought with the Confederacy, but then quickly made friends with the occupying Union officers, only to save that dimwit Ashley from a KKK meeting raided by Union soldiers). He wasn't a negative figure. Neither was Yancie Derringer or whoever Patrick Swayzee played in North and South, the series. A Confederate officer, a plantation owner, a proud man, but no whip-cracking monster.

Even in the Spaghetti Westerns, most of the lonely restless heroes were former Confederate soldies coming to grips with a lost war (bit of a Vietnam echo/allegory there I always thought). OTOH, arch-villain Lee van Cleef in The Good, the Bad & The Ugly was a ratty and opportunistic Union officer. (The way good ole Lee looked, it wouldn't have taken much to turn him into a sadistic North Vietnamese officer type either!)

If there is one movie that did the South damage, then it was probably "The Birth of a Nation", which was not intended to be anti-South at all, but reinforces all stereotypes from today's viewpoint.



In 'modern' times, I believe that much of the South's initial reaction to the Civil Rights Movement in the fifties and sixties shaped people's perception - kind of like South Africa, telling the good guys from the bad ones was made really easy, the perverse segregation stance as unsustainable as apartheid. The Civil War and who fought for what was largely a faded memory by then, but those pictures of the federal troopers guarding the first black students to previously segregated schools, colleges and universities left a collective imprint even as far away as in Europe. It's one of the iconic pictures of that era. Never mind how many Southern cities had black mayors only twenty years later.



I couldn't find that other even more famous pic in the wake of the Supreme Court decision ...

[4stringer77]

Django gives some pretty gruesome portrayals of slave holders. Another good turn from your native son Christoph Waltz as well Uwe.