the Guild sludgebucker and "Deep-Hard Switch"

[hieronymous]

I know I'm asking for trouble with a thread title like this, but I'm not making it up:



I wasn't planning on starting a new topic, but I put a lot of work in to document the two positions of the infamous "suck switch" found on early-'70s Guild basses for the "Let's Talk Guild" forum, so I'm just going to repeat the post here. Or, you can read the original post here.

With ProTools LE 8.0.1 I recorded my M-85 II fretless in each position. I played both fingers and pick, but for the sake of this demo I just included fingers, with my thumb resting on the corner of the fretboard. I recorded each position - the neck pickup soloed in each "suck switch" position, then with both pickups in each position, then just the bridge pickup. I also used the EQ section of a mastering program called Ozone (the link is version 5, I'm still using Ozone 3) to capture a snapshot of the EQ curve of one of the notes. I also have a screenshot of the two switch positions next to each other for another (albeit less accurate) visual.

So first, here are the soundclips. Position A is with the switch up (towards the bass side), Position B is with the switch down (towards the treble side) - I think this matches Frono's terminology in previous posts in this thread.









So far so good - use your ears to listen to the various positions in relation to each other. My subjective impressions from just playing the bass since I got it were that 1) the A position is much bassier than the B position, and 2) the neck in position B and the bridge by itself sound really thin.

Then I decided to take a screen shot of some of the soundclips in ProTools:



The top is the neck in the A position, the bottom in the B. The problem with the signal images in ProTools is that amplitude and frequency are combined, so peaks aren't necessarily related to only one or the other. But you can still get the basic idea that the two settings have some differences. You can see that neck B is louder - when recording I didn't use any compression and just played each clip without any gain adjustments. See Granny Gremlin's comments later on in the thread.

So I used the EQ section of Ozone to take "snapshots" of the low A being played at the 5th fret of the E string. In this first image, the purple curve is the neck pup in the A position and the yellow curve is the neck pup in the B position:



The lowest frequency is several decibels lower in the B position, while the midrange from about 200 hz and up is higher. You can really hear it in the soundclips.

In this second image, the purple curve again is the neck pickup in the A position, and the white curve is both pickups with the switch in the A position:



With both pickups, you retain the bass, but still get increased midrange/treble response, though there's still not a lot of treble.

Ideally I would provide snapshots of each position, each note even! But I didn't get that far. This will hopefully help illustrate the differences between the two settings of the suck switch. There is still a lot of work to be done, but this is a start.

[chromium]

That's cool, Harry!  I like the spectrum analyzer screenshots

If I recall correctly from my old JS-II, that toggle would switch a cap inline with the neck pickup - creating a high pass filter that would "choke out" some of the lows.  Kind of akin to the cap used on the Ric bridge pickups.

I wonder what other names for that switch came up in the marketing meeting? 

[Hörnisse]

Sounds like the title of an old John Holmes flick.   

[Granny Gremlin]

The problem with the signal images in ProTools is that amplitude and frequency are combined, so peaks aren't necessarily related to only one or the other. But you can still get the basic idea that the two settings have some differences.

It looks like the waveforms are out of phase (maybe not a complete 180 degrees, but any filter will induce some phase shift.... a single cap, or 1st order crossover should not give as much as it looks like here; the give away is how some parts of the wave look upside down from track to track - for example the first transient on the left.... looks upside down and louder).  Try a null test (it won't null completely for various reasons, including not being the exact same take, but you should get a tone suck/hole).

I dunno what you mean by the quoted sentence above (and I don't use Pro Tools) but the up/down travel should only be indicative of amplitude, while freq is indicated by how quickly the wave goes from over to above the center line (OK it's really more complicated than that, but in terms of the root or lowest note per moment in the wave that should be true unless PT defies all convention on the matter).

It would also be interesting to see if you get any significant or unexpected differences with both pups neck in A vs B due to the phase shift of the tone choke.  Despite choked neck having more bass, with both pups + phase shift the neck treble position might actually be more or just as bassy due to less partial cancellation.

[hieronymous]

It looks like the waveforms are out of phase (maybe not a complete 180 degrees, but any filter will induce some phase shift.... a single cap, or 1st order crossover should not give as much as it looks like here; the give away is how some parts of the wave look upside down from track to track - for example the first transient on the left.... looks upside down and louder).  Try a null test (it won't null completely for various reasons, including not being the exact same take, but you should get a tone suck/hole).

Thanks for checking it out! The waveforms definitely look funny for the "neck B" clip. I don't know what null test is - would that be playing the two clips at the same time and seeing if they cancel each other out?

I dunno what you mean by the quoted sentence above (and I don't use Pro Tools) but the up/down travel should only be indicative of amplitude, while freq is indicated by how quickly the wave goes from over to above the center line (OK it's really more complicated than that, but in terms of the root or lowest note per moment in the wave that should be true unless PT defies all convention on the matter).

I don't really understand what's going on myself - I just find that the waveforms seem to be a representation of more than just amplitude - in other words, bassy signals will look different than midrangey signals - why the heck do the "neck B" signals only go up instead of being symmetrical like "neck A"? I have no idea, I don't have the brain power to think about it right now, maybe I can do some reading in the morning.

It would also be interesting to see if you get any significant or unexpected differences with both pups neck in A vs B due to the phase shift of the tone choke.  Despite choked neck having more bass, with both pups + phase shift the neck treble position might actually be more or just as bassy due to less partial cancellation.

I have clips of those too, I didn't include them because it seemed to be too much information. I want to do some more clips - I really like the EQ curve snapshots - thinking of comparing some different basses next!

[hieronymous]

If I recall correctly from my old JS-II, that toggle would switch a cap inline with the neck pickup - creating a high pass filter that would "choke out" some of the lows.  Kind of akin to the cap used on the Ric bridge pickups.

But isn't it weird that they wanted to get rid of the lows from the neck pickup?!!!    I was surprised how much the B position sounds like the bridge pickup by itself - what's the point?!!!

[Granny Gremlin]

I don't know what null test is - would that be playing the two clips at the same time and seeing if they cancel each other out?

Exactly. 

I don't really understand what's going on myself - I just find that the waveforms seem to be a representation of more than just amplitude - in other words, bassy signals will look different than midrangey signals - why the heck do the "neck B" signals only go up instead of being symmetrical like "neck A"? I have no idea, I don't have the brain power to think about it right now, maybe I can do some reading in the morning.

Bassier signals, especially coming out of a bass, are just louder (see your EQ curves).  You might be overthinking it.  Neck A isn't symetrical either, just that the peaks point the other way (down vs up).  Neck B is also louder so these are more pronounced/exaggerated (remember most things in audio, including loudness, are logarithmic vs linear).  Most recorded sources won't be perfectly symetrical, though often they look it until you zoom in further.

[Rob]

This is an interesting thread. . . Thanks to you both.
I was following it on Guild but those guys always make me sleepy!

[gearHed289]

Cool analysis. When I had my JS II, I used a simpler method - "up" sound good, "down" sound bad. 

http://ivorywire.bandcamp.com/track/am-i-dying-here

[chromium]

^^ Great sound and playing on that!  Love the slides and upper register stuff in the verses.  I was glued to Squire and McCartney as a kid for that exact reason.

I know its heresy to some, but when I put DSs in my JS-II I stopeed playing it.  I think combined with the brass-mass bridge, it sounded (to me) too much like my Distillate - and so the Guild got benched and eventually sold.  I'm happy that the new owner digs it, though.  If I was gonna do it again, I would have to keep the quirky Hag bridge and the 70s pickups.

But isn't it weird that they wanted to get rid of the lows from the neck pickup?!!!    I was surprised how much the B position sounds like the bridge pickup by itself - what's the point?!!!

I think they were aping the EB setup a bit there.  Kinda reminded me of the way "baritone" mode neuters the neck pickup lows on my EB-2D.

[Granny Gremlin]

I think they were aping the EB setup a bit there.  Kinda reminded me of the way "baritone" mode neuters the neck pickup lows on my EB-2D.

Yes, but switch back and forth while jamming with a band at full volume and neutered mode actually cuts through more ( and is a bit louder due to more amp headroom). 

[chromium]

Yes, but switch back and forth while jamming with a band at full volume and neutered mode actually cuts through more ( and is a bit louder due to more amp headroom).  

With the EBs, I tend to use the trick I might have picked up from you (IIRC) at the old place- use the normal (non-baritone) setting and an EQ to notch out the sub-lows- leaving the more useful frequencies intact.  That really helped to get some clarity in live settings, and a little OD grit helps also, to add harmonics and cut thru.

For whatever reason, I'm at peace with the stock wiring in the EB-3, but I broke down and modified my EB-2D to add a wide-open setting to the two stock sounds (3-position toggle in place of the pushbutton).  Having the inductor in the Gibson filter design adds a resonant peak that seems kind of unruly on my EB-2D in baritone mode (think: Alembic "Q filter" from hell).  It also cut too much of the low-mids for my taste.  The stock wiring on the EB-3 works for me, though, and that bass pretty much lives in position-3.

IIRC the Guild just used an RC filter, and didn't have as much of that nasal thing going on in its "baritone" mode (...or should that be "hard" mode?   ).

[Granny Gremlin]

Yeah, that was me.  I have one of them MXR 10 band EQ pedals.  The lowest band is 30 Hz; I  just take it down all the way and add a bit of a upper mid bump for balance.

[gearHed289]

^^ Great sound and playing on that!  Love the slides and upper register stuff in the verses.  I was glued to Squire and McCartney as a kid for that exact reason.

I know its heresy to some, but when I put DSs in my JS-II I stopeed playing it.  I think combined with the brass-mass bridge, it sounded (to me) too much like my Distillate - and so the Guild got benched and eventually sold.  I'm happy that the new owner digs it, though.  If I was gonna do it again, I would have to keep the quirky Hag bridge and the 70s pickups.


I think they were aping the EB setup a bit there.  Kinda reminded me of the way "baritone" mode neuters the neck pickup lows on my EB-2D.

Thanks man! I should mention I used TI flats and a pick. Real nice combo, I just didn't use it much. Hated selling it, but the truth is, I rarely ever find myself missing it.