My London Experience

[Barklessdog]

I just got back from London. It was my first trip to Europe. My wife has been there several times so she helped navigate us.

First off it was really really expensive-$60 for a simple lunch at a dinner. How the American dollar has fallen!
It was a fantastic experience and London was amazing, a beautiful and great city. Ancient history everywhere!





If found a lot of things refreshing compared to the US-

I did not see many obese people like you do here, but that could be to the Tube transit system. A lot of steps and running around. Orlando in contrast is like going to a pig farm!

No one walks around yaking on their cell phones 24/7 and if people do use their cell phone they stand away from people and speak quietly. It's also against the law to drive and talk on a cell phone without a headset or bluetooth. As soon as we got back we were at the US terminal and some US guy was literally talking at the top of his voice on his cell phone.

Traffic in London was not the clogged mess like Chicago, New York or LA. The high congestion areas you have to pay to enter (they tried to pass it in NY, but failed recently)There was also not the belching smog of LA or the dirty diesels of Chicago, busses & trucks ran cleaner.

London that we saw, was mostly, no more than 5 story older buildings and the new modern buildings built were shaped like giant pine cones, apples & bee hives.

As Americans, were treated nicely by the English, which seems to be about 40% of the people there. But with other foreigners, it was a different story. People from other countries would look us up & down then ease drop to see what language we spoke, then determining we were American's, gave us dirty looks. This happened many times and became embarrassing after a bit - we are not loved.

At our hotel my wife & daughter went down early to breakfast and the hostess seated them next to an Italian couple. She said hello & good morning, the couple snubbed her and moved to another table!

Reading the papers and watching the news there were not gun related killings everyday, like here in Chicago. It was strange. Also it was funny how Americans think Gun crime while there. Other American tourists would ask about do thy have bullet proof glass on things or protection.

London was also one of the most security camera cities I have been to. You don't see a lot of police, but there are cameras everywhere and in the Tube subways, every ten feet in walkways. They words they warn you about are pickpockets, not car jacking or being robbed by gun point, but just pickpockets!

Also people do not spit on the sidewalk everywhere and is considered very rude, unlike Chicago where the sidewalks can be covered by huge amounts of mucus. I used to commute to Downtown Chicago and had about a mile walk each way-you have to really watch where you walk. I was also surprised on how clean the city is of litter, even the subway tracks & highways were pretty much litter free!
They also have pigeon spikes & wire in all the public transit areas.



It really was an eye opening experience in many ways. If can get the chance, it well worth he trip inmany ways.

[Max Soren]

I have been to Europe at least once a year since 2005.  It appears I probably won't be able to go this year, though.  I lost my job several months ago because two out of four of my bosses believed some lies spread about me.  I regret very much that I may not be able to see Europe at all in 2008. 

I believe what you have said about England here can also be applied in many ways to Ireland and Holland, the two countries I've visited the past few years.  However, I didn't experience very much anti-Americanism in those two countries.  I'm sure something like this might vary in each particular situation, depending on what part of a country you may be in and what people you might end up being around at any given moment. 

If anyone actually has the money to go to Europe--something I don't have myself now--I'd highly recommend going, too.  Depending on how long you stay there, though, you may have to experience some reverse culture shock when you return to the U.S.  This was the strange part for me.  I found it easier to adjust to the cultures of two foreign cultures than to readjust to the culture of my own country.  Of course, when I go to Europe, I stay for at least a month and usually more.  It's definitely something I could get used to. 

[Barklessdog]

you may have to experience some reverse culture shock when you return to the U.S.  This was the strange part for me.  I found it easier to adjust to the cultures of two foreign cultures than to readjust to the culture of my own country.

I could not agree more. Everything seemed to be more sensible and better cultured there.

[Darrol]

I really like British television these days.

[Max Soren]

I could not agree more. Everything seemed to be more sensible and better cultured there.

Among other things, the rules of social etiquette are far more developed in Europe.  Of course, I can see that there are exceptions to this, especially among younger people trying to rebel against whatever part of European society they may find themselves in. Nevertheless, I don't know enough about the intricacies of European society to comment on this very much.  Overall, though, things seem to be holding up well there, though, in spite of many challenges.  I can't say the same thing for American society which, in my opinion, looks like it may be experiencing a slow meltdown. 

[Dave W]

John, it's too bad but not surprising that some other foreigners were rude. Probably blowback from American treatment of the rest of the world.

I've read about the security cameras. How Orwellian -- and yet it seems they have been accepted.

[Max Soren]

They've already developed a camera that can see through clothing (to check for weapons of course) and it is already being used at the Canary Wharf complex in East London-a place I know nothing about.  But I recently saw on the news something like that may also be used at American airports sometime. 

[uwe]

It's very flattering to read about your European experience, John, but remember the grass is always greener on the other side. When us Europeans hit the US, the culture shock is one of most everyone being extremely friendly, interested in who you are and generally every one being in good spirits even if that person is not particularly well-off by  economic standards. You also get the feeling that the US is not as over-regulated, less class conscious (you are what you have become not where you came from) and generally more vibrant - with the risk of failure and then very little to catch your fall, that is the other side of the American Dream, but a dream to many Europeans it is.

Having lived in both cultures, I can see the benefits and drawbacks of both.

Anti-Americanism is dumb and has a lot to do with European self-loathing. It is dumb to measure the US on what a particular administration has done in recent years, that same US freed Europe of Nazism an helped to erect a new better Europe. History also teaches us that whenever the US is deemed down and out out, it comes back swinging. It's ability to reinvent itself and  the flow of talent it attracts AND nurtures make it a special place. You don't need to pledge allegiance to the flag to realize that.

Now I'm beginning to sound like I want to run for president ...

Uwe

PS: That couple who was rude to your wife, John, f***ing idiots! No amount of for whatever good or bad reason disliked foreign policy of a state can justify that type of behaviour towards one of its nationals. Very cheap, very self-righteous and - dare I say - very European.

[Barklessdog]

I think we have out lived our right to bear arms though. Everyday in the paper there are gun related killings. It so bad, its like not even surprising anymore, you get used to it. Its crazy. Does Europe has this problem?

This is from our Chicago news today-I can post an article everyday about another shooting/killing

3 teens injured in separate overnight shootings
April 8, 2008 Recommend (9)
FROM STNG WIRE REPORTS
Teen girl shot twice in abdomen on South Side
A teenage girl was hospitalized in serious condition after being shot twice during a drive-by shooting in the South Side's Back-of-the-Yards neighborhood Monday night. The incident may be gang-related, police said.
The 16-year-old girl was walking down the street with a 17-year-old female friend about 10:30 p.m. Monday when she was shot twice in the right side of her abdomen on the 4500 block of South Honore Street, according to Deering District Capt. Donald O'Neill, correcting earlier reports the incident occurred on Hermitage.

Five shots were fired out of a dark-colored vehicle that fled south on Honore Street. The two men in the vehicle are described as Hispanics with medium complexions, O'Neill said.

The 16-year-old was initially taken in critical condition to John H. Stroger, Jr. Hospital of Cook County, O'Neill said. Her 17-year-old friend was not injured.

About 4 a.m., the girl's condition was serious and she is suffering from multiple gunshot wounds, according to Wentworth Area detectives.

As of 2 p.m., police News Affairs Officer David Banks said the 16-year-old's condition was "stable."

The two teen girls were the only people on the street at the time of the shooting, according to O'Neill.

The incident occurred a half-hour after curfew, which is now 10 p.m., according to Wentworth Area detectives.

As of 4 a.m. an arrest has not been made in the shooting which is believed to be possibly gang-related as the area where it occurred is a "known gang corner,'' according to Wentworth Area detectives.

Man, 19, in critical condition after S. Side shooting
A 19-year-old man is in critical condition after being shot twice in the back while sitting in a vehicle on the South Side Monday night.
Four men were seated in a vehicle in the 900 block of West Garfield Boulevard about 9:20 p.m. Monday, when one of the men, a 19-year-old sitting behind the front passenger seat, was shot twice in the back, according to Deering District Capt. Donald O'Neill.

The man who was shot was taken in critical condition to University of Chicago Hospitals. He was later transferred to John. H. Stroger, Jr. Hospital of Cook County, O'Neill said.

The shots were apparently fired by one of four males standing on the corner at West Garfield Boulevard and South Peoria Street. One of the four on the corner, described as a black male about 16-18-years-old, "started shooting into the car,'' O'Neill said.

All four fled on foot after the shooting, O'Neill said.

No one was in custody as of 12:45 a.m. Tuesday.

Wentworth Area detectives are investigating.

Boy, 15, injured when caught in gunfire
A 15-year-old "innocent bystander'' suffered a minor injury to the head after becoming caught in an argument over DVDs that erupted into gunfire in the West Side's Garfield Park neighborhood Monday night.
One man is in custody for the shooting Tuesday morning.

About 9:57 p.m. Monday, the 15-year-old boy was standing on the sidewalk talking with a friend in the 4000 block of West Grenshaw Street, when two adult men behind him, one on the sidewalk and one in a vehicle, began arguing over property, possibly DVDs, according to a Harrison District Lieutenant.

The argument escalated and the man on the sidewalk began firing shots at the vehicle, according to the lieutenant, who said at least nine shots were fired. The 32-year-old male driver of the vehicle, who was the intended victim, was able to escape uninjured, but the 15-year-old boy suffered injuries to the back of his head.

The boy apparently started running when he heard the gunfire, but later realized he had been injured and was bleeding from the head.

The boy suffered only "very superficial" wounds and was taken in "very good" condition to John H. Stroger, Jr. Hospital of Cook County, the lieutenant said. It was not clear as of 4:15 a.m. whether the boy was grazed by a bullet or struck by a bullet fragment.

"The boy was an innocent bystander," according to the lieutenant.

The driver of the vehicle fled a few blocks away to the 1300 block of South Lawndale Avenue and called police. His vehicle was riddled with bullet holes and its back window had been broken out, according to the lieutenant.

Police have a 28-year-old man believed to be the shooter in custody. Charges against him are expected, but none had been filed as of 4:15 a.m. Tuesday.

A witness said he saw a green Chevy van in the area at the time of the shooting, but it is unclear whether the vehicle was involved in the shooting.

Harrison Area detectives are investigating.

People are killing each other over DVD's & video games and thats just one city and one day! I did not see this kind of stuff the whole week in London?

The right to the public to bear arms is past it's use, until you see how fast society broke down with Hurricane Katrina. It was every man for himself. Things went down hill real quick.

I don't know what the answer to our problems are, but it sure seems a lot safer in countries that don't allow the public to own assault rifles and automatic weapons.

Going over and seeing the other side, then coming back really is eye opening.

[uwe]

As a European, I'll never understand why anybody that neither is a soldier, a policeman, a hunter, a member of a sports rifle club with restricted use on a rifle range or a violent crook would need or want a gun that actually works, it is an enigmatic  idiosyncracy of US thinking. And if you think that there are countries with similar numbers of privately owned guns that don't have nearly as many gun casualities such as Canada, Norway and Switzerland, it becomes even more baffling. What tighter gun laws would probably do away with (over time, there is so many of them on the market) is those "strange kid nobody really knew picks up automatic rifle and commits bloodbath at school/college"-scenarios. Those things do have to do with the prevalence of guns, Europe doesn't overall have less crazies, but the crazies have a harder time getting an automatic weapon.

But you can't reduce the US to just that gun control issue, difficult to comprehend as it may be.And I understand that as a parent in Chicago it is a serious concern.

Uwe

[OldManC]

With respect to the divergent ideas represented by the many people who post here, I feel the need to post my respect and thankfulness for the philosophers and great thinkers that enshrined the right of self protection in that document that has allowed the U.S. to exist for over 230 years with a continuous governmental system (unmatched by almost every other country in the world). Thanks of course to the English that started the process over 500 hundred years previous which, like many things, we Americans tried to 'improve on'.  Though I recognize that there is some argument as to whether the framers meant the 2nd amendment to be an individual right, I believe they did. I'm hoping the U.S. Supreme Court will finally step up and clarify that this year.

I agree that far too many people die at the hands of others, due to gunfire or other violence. But until it can be guaranteed beyond doubt that all firearms have been removed from the face of the earth, the best chance I have of protecting myself and my home and family from those intent on harming us is to be armed. I don't ever want to find out what it feels like to defend my family in that way, but I'd rather do that than suffer the consequences of not being prepared to.

The U.S. is an interesting place. We seem to have both ends of the spectrum and all points in between. Whether you're talking about physical fitness, education, inventions and innovations, or just about anything else, you can find data to fit any idea you're trying to get across, good or bad. After living in England for almost two years, I learned that it's not so easy to make blanket assumptions about people or places. I met all kinds there, from absolute knock outs to 27 Stone behemoths (I guess the guys were all over the spectrum too, but I never noticed  ), from kind hearted, generous souls to complete pricks. Some of my favorite people in the world, and a few I hope I never see again. Just like I've met in the U.S... I loved it there, but I love it here even more. Home is where you make it, but I'm thankful my home is in America.   

[rockinrayduke]

I was lucky during my years in the music business to travel overseas a few times. I highly recommend it to anyone-get out and see how the rest of the world lives...it's an eye opener.

[Chris P.]

I remember that, like twenty years ago, people in Holland really hated the Germans. All nazis. If they asked the way to some point, we would direct them in a wrong way. Americans, though, were the people who freed us from the Germans, so they were all alright.

Nowadays, for my generation who weren't born close to the war, the Germans are just other Europeans and friends and the US seems to be a fascist state which invades countries in a random order.

Note: That's NOT my opinion, but something I see around me a bit.

I saw a lot of American artists the last couple of years and they almost all started the concert with apologies for their government...

Like Uwe says. we all speak (a bit English) and we just have very different cultures.... The only real thing we have in common is that we all hate the French;)

Strange thing about the British cameras (CCTV). Computers monitoring the cameras have a lot of data input, so they can recognize crimes. Some movements and so. Some people in the UK found out that they react stronger on coloured people, so coloured people get caught more often than white people!! Probably because of the very bad data input. The 'conclusion' is that coloured people commit more crimes. I can get very angry at those things.

[Darrol]

The only real thing we have in common is that we all hate the French;)

The French. I have played games online with some just to get yelled at and beat up on when I was on their team. My sister, when she was living in France as a teenager, got her head bitten off when she tried to talk to some locals her age that were speaking english.

[Barklessdog]

The only real thing we have in common is that we all hate the French;)

Funny but I know several people including my wife, who has been there and they said it was one of the most American friendly places they have been to. People were very nice to them.

My wife said they blame our government and not our people.  Also I might ad I have made a lot of musical friends from France and all have been very kind to me as well. I think a lot of people view America through the Simpsons, we just go with the flow and really only worry about our own lives.

As far as me comparing things, I'm just stating my observations that I could not help but notice in my short visit to London. It hit all of my family the moment to arrive. Somethings are the same, like the Gap, McDonnalds & Starbucks and other things are completely different like driving on the other side of the road.

As far as George commented about owning guns, I always was anti gun, until Hurricane Katrina hit and within days it was everyman for himself. Your darn right I would want a machine gun in that situation. How can you blame anyone in that situation?

I still believe we have out lived the right for hand guns. Farmers & Hunting is fine, but in the real world you need to get the guns off the streets first. How do you decide who is responsible enough to own a hand gun?