New heights of automotive ignorance

[Pilgrim]

Here's why you can't trust "quality" ratings.  The ignorance of US consumers when it comes to matters automotive strains both belief and credulity.  If they think brake dust on wheels is a quality issue, they deserve to drive a Yugo.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32509285/ns/business-consumer_news/?ns=business-consumer_news

[Dave W]

I wouldn't necessarily blame this on buyers. Just because a consumer thinks having to wash off brake dust is a "defect" doesn't mean the consumer thinks that's as bad as engine failure. Looks to me like it's J. D. Power's decision to weight it the same.

Do some companies benefit from that decision? Likewise with their Initial Quality Study -- that's the one you see quoted most often by automakers who rate high in that category, but it says nothing about long term reliability. Is that weighted in favor of certain companies? It makes me wonder just how independent J.D. Power really is.

[Pilgrim]

Good question!  On a closely related topic....

For many years, I have taken Consumer Reports' car rankings with many grains of salt.  I think that what gets reported to them as a "problem" is highly variable from person to person.  I think many people think US cars are junk and therefore report anything that happens (brake dust = brake problem), while people who drive imports consider some of the same repairs to be normal maintenance on their fine imported machine.

I've owned two cars that CR rated as near-deathtraps.  Both gave great service, and one stayed in the family for 25 years before being sold to a collector.

The automotive ignorance of drivers grows every year - probably because cars have become so technical that people think you can't work on them, so many people never learn anything about DIY with cars.  But oil changes and similar basic mechanical tasks work same-same as ever they did. 

[Highlander]

One of the "real" problems with the architecture of the modern automobile is that they have stuffed the plumbing up too far... all the gadgets have made it almost impossible for the average, or even advanced, DIYer to work on anything beyond the simple...

Every year (on all UK vehicles beyond 3 years old) we have to have a safety check called an MOT, which proves the "basic" roadworthieness of the vehicle... so, just prior to the "veggie-fun-bus" check this August, I did all the usual "basics", change the air/oil filters and oil, etc, and in the progress I (unknowingly) damaged a "sensor"... the "VFB" proceeded to run "lumpy", and I thought something had got into the carb... the engine was "hunting" at low revs, or when stationary... gave up trying to find the fault after a few hours of wasted time... 

An old car, or maybe an old T1 or T2 V-Dub bus, and that would be all I would need... something simple and accessible... sod todays "modern-motor"... 

[eb2]

The problem with CR ratings is the problem with many of these kinds of things - some of the problems are legit, some are bogus, some defy reason.  Not to mention long-term CR writers with a bias against American cars.  Add them all up and the question is what is any of that worth?  I tend to ask mechanics, and then people who own certain cars.  You get a general idea, and on a lot of things CR will fall in line.  A few examples are that Honda Accords were reliable, durable and relatively comfortable cars for many years.  Toyotas were the same, and still are.  Most US Fords were too.  Many GM cars were not.  Those are generalizations, and safe for a small window of time, and the market place is fickle, has short memories, and even dumb.  Using those same standards that have Honda with loyal customers, the Oldsmobile Cutlass should be flying out the dealer's lot like crazy.  But people got tired of them, as they will Hondas and Toyotas.  They just aren't that much better than most US made cars. And almost anything is more problem free than a Kia.  But a Kia is cheap, and some people figure they are worth the gamble, and because it is an Asian import it must be better than a Ford.  I think it boils down to what benefit does it do to ignore QC or public perception over a long period.  For US car makers, it was foolish.  They ditched hub caps for coated wheels to look like the performance imports and cut costs. Now brake dust is a problem. Oh well.

[jmcgliss]

When the media covered Detroit's perfect storm in 4th quarter 2008, I was disgusted with car-hating reporters who wrote pieces like "The 10 Cars That Killed Detroit"...all from the late 1970's through early 1980's.  WTF does that have to do with the quality of a 2008 Ford, Malibu, or Chrysler 300? I know from experience that my girlfriend's 1980-something Toyota Corolla was a crapload compared my 1977 Corolla SR5 Liftback (a fun, sporty, durable gear hauler).

IMHO, we need to figure out a way to hold journalists responsible for reckless biased reporting, especially when it's still possible to profit from shorting stocks.

[Dave W]

I don't doubt that some reporting was biased against Detroit. Still, some of the cars from that era were responsible for turning people away from American cars, and 20 years later, many of those lost customers haven't come back and aren't even considering it.

I feel the same way about Saab. I won't give them another chance, no matter who owns them and no matter if they've improved. Fool me once...

[exiledarchangel]

I don't know why a lot of people think huyndais or kias are crap. Never saw one of thoe little fuggers with some serious mechanical problem. On the other hand I have saw alot of fiats, citroens, peugeots, some opels. I own a hyundai and I only have good stuff to tell about it.

Ofcourse japan cars are indestructable. I call 'em "zombie cars". They live even after their death.

[Pilgrim]

I've driven some Hyundai Sonatas as rentals - very decent cars.

My brother rented a small Kia on a visit to Denver two weeks ago, drove up to Fort Collins and reported that it was the must gutless thing he'd ever driven, AND had no power under 5000 RPM.  He said he had to drive it harder than anything he'd used in years to get it to move. 

Perhaps the best statement about Consumer Reports auto reviews came from the father of one of my high school friends - the dad was a salesman at a Chevy-Olds dealership in town:  "I only pay attention to those reviews when they say something good about a car I sell."

I bought a 1977 Monza Spyder from him (only new car I've ever owned. It had a 305 V-8, 4-speed & Positrac) and that car stayed in the family until 2002.  But if you read the CR reviews on that car, you'd have thought you needed a death wish to ever turn the key.  All cars should be that bad - it never had the engine worked on in the entire time we owned it.

[Dave W]

Early Hyundais and Kias weren't that good. People kept buying them because they were cheap. They got better.

One of my neighbors just treated herself to a new Camry. The old one looks a little ragged now. She's keeping it since it runs well and only has 375,000 miles on it. 

[Highlander]

There was once a time that the only vehicles to have a 6th digit and then a 7th, were Rollers...

I just loved the nonchalent way you wrote "375,000 miles"...

[kungfusheriff]

I had an '80 or '81 Corolla wagon that had the odometer die at 320,000 miles. The car kept rolling.
My best friend's wife had a brand-new Hyundai Sonata she put about 100 highway miles on five days a week while she finished her degree, and the front right rotor assembly tore itself to shreds after about eight months. The design was great -- I backed out one bolt and the caliper swung up and out of the way -- but the materials sucked.
Like most things, car ownership is a crapshoot. I wouldn't buy Japanese again after watching a coworker's Yota truck's frame dissolve because the factory forgot to apply rust-proofing to the frame for about six years. That's negligent. I also wouldn't buy American anytime soon after GM started installing the cheapest components they could get their hands on AND redesigned most of their models to look like shit.
Buddy of mine's got a line on a couple of great burros. I'll let you guys know how that works out.

[Pilgrim]

I wouldn't buy Japanese again after watching a coworker's Yota truck's frame dissolve because the factory forgot to apply rust-proofing to the frame for about six years. [snip] I also wouldn't buy American anytime soon after GM started installing the cheapest components they could get their hands on AND redesigned most of their models to look like shit.
Buddy of mine's got a line on a couple of great burros. I'll let you guys know how that works out.

Good plan!!  All that's left is German, Chinese and Korean cars - and burros, skateboards, scooters and mopeds.

You can CLEARLY not buy the Japanese car, and you can CLEARLY not buy the US car! Reminds me of Wallace Shawn in The Princess Bride:

Man in Black: You've made your decision then?
Vizzini: Not remotely. Because iocane comes from Australia, as everyone knows, and Australia is entirely peopled with criminals, and criminals are used to having people not trust them, as you are not trusted by me, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you.
Man in Black: Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.
Vizzini: Wait til I get going! Now, where was I?
Man in Black: Australia.
Vizzini: Yes, Australia. And you must have suspected I would have known the powder's origin, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.
Man in Black: You're just stalling now.
Vizzini: You'd like to think that, wouldn't you? You've beaten my giant, which means you're exceptionally strong, so you could've put the poison in your own goblet, trusting on your strength to save you, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But, you've also bested my Spaniard, which means you must have studied, and in studying you must have learned that man is mortal, so you would have put the poison as far from yourself as possible, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.
Man in Black: You're trying to trick me into giving away something. It won't work.
Vizzini: IT HAS WORKED! YOU'VE GIVEN EVERYTHING AWAY! I KNOW WHERE THE POISON IS!
Man in Black: Then make your choice.
Vizzini: I will, and I choose - What in the world can that be?
Vizzini: [Vizzini gestures up and away from the table. Roberts looks. Vizzini swaps the goblets]
Man in Black: What? Where? I don't see anything.
Vizzini: Well, I- I could have sworn I saw something. No matter.First, let's drink. Me from my glass, and you from yours.
Man in Black, Vizzini: [they drink ]
Man in Black: You guessed wrong.
Vizzini: You only think I guessed wrong! That's what's so funny! I switched glasses when your back was turned! Ha ha! You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never get involved in a land war in Asia, but only slightly less well-known is this: never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha...
Vizzini: [Vizzini stops suddenly, and falls dead to the right]

[kungfusheriff]

Spoken with tongue firmly in cheek, I assure you. For the record, I'm going to look at a Nissan Frontier.

[Pilgrim]

Spoken with tongue firmly in cheek, I assure you. For the record, I'm going to look at a Nissan Frontier.

INCONCEIVABLE!