sound difference between 60's and 70's EB3

[chromium]

Barend- could you please post an updated shot of your circuit, after that resistor was removed?  That same point of view would work great.

The only thing that stood out to me so far is that the tech also ran a short wire (teal blue color) to bypass that other (original) resistor that is part of the choke filter.  That should be fine, and it should serve to rectify that volume disparity that I mentioned between position one and four with the mod in place.  I just want to make sure that there is nothing else different in there since it was worked on last.  Everything else in that pic looks to be in its proper place so far...

[barend]

He didn't tell me about a blue wire only about the green one. So I don't think the guitar tech did it. But you'll never know.
The only thing he did last time is that he removed that resistor from the red wire and soldered it back the way it was. I will post a picture tommorow.

Also I want to post a soundclip. I know how to make a clip and everything but I don't know how to post it like Chromium did. If someone can explain that to me I will post the soundclip tomorrow or saturday.

[chromium]

I just wanted to mention that teal blue wire so you know its there - and not part of the original circuit.  This is the wire I'm talking about (the white arrow):



If you did ever want to revert back to stock behavior, just make a mental note that it would need to come out.  For this mod you are wanting, however, it's ok to leave it - and maybe even desirable - as it will make position 1 and 4 behavior truly identical (unlike my test, with the volume difference).  That's the only reason I assumed the tech might have been responsible for it - it's actually a good idea for this purpose.

I'll post your sound clip on my web server if you want to email it to me.

[barend]

ok, thanks for pointing out that green wire, didn't know that.  What will this wire do (change) compared to the original wiring? because when I bought the bass it sounded like the original wiring.

I will mail you the soundclips tomorrow or maybe tonight if I can find the time.

Thanks

[chromium]

What will this wire do (change) compared to the original wiring? because when I bought the bass it sounded like the original wiring.

I drew this on a schematic, but hopefully to clarify rather than confuse - so bear with me! 



The three components in that grey highlighted area work together as a filter for the neck pickup, to remove portions of its sound (i.e. lows, highs, etc...).  The resistor serves to set the frequency point at which the filter begins to do its job.  When that point is reached, frequencies above it (as example) will travel down thru the capacitor and choke to ground.  Think of ground as the trash can.  From a reference I have, it looks like if you lower the value of that resistor, the point at which the filter begins to work moves up in frequency range. 

I drew the blue/green wire on that diagram.  It just bridges the circuit right across that resistor - making it as though the resistor is not there at all.  This lower resistance in the circuit that results would change (raise) the filter point - giving it a different sound than stock (likely more open, and less muddy in the position one "unchoked but filtered" mode - so probably not a bad thing, just different than stock behavior).

Also note that the goal of this whole mod is to cut one end of that inductor/choke - so frequencies can't get thrown into the "trash can" at all.  This is why I'm having a hard time - because you did that, and it still filtering.  So something somewhere in that circuit is different and I'm just not seeing it - but we'll figure it out 

No rush on that stuff, Barend.  I'll mainly just want to see the pic update to make sure there is not something in the circuit's present state that would explain what currently has me mystified 

And if anybody else see's sumpthin I'm missing... by all means jump in!   

[bobyoung]

Man that is one complicated control circuit, gives me a headache trying to figure it out, are the newer ones (69-70) wired like this?
Also has any one bypassed the resistor, open the filter cap, bypassed the volume control cap and bypassed the choke at the same time? The way it is drawn it looks like that would be the neck pickup straight with no filters. I also don't see the neck pickup tone control in this circuit.
A resistor in series is a high pass, a cap in parallel is a high cut and a choke in parallel should be a low cut.
I think the baritone sound on these basses is possible the most useless tone I have ever heard in a bass. I would like to try this but don't want to hack up my bass.

[barend]

Below is my new picture and also some soundsamples (they will come soon, because Chromium will handle the samples here) of all position of the varitone switch:

I recorded the same bass line directly into my soundcard with no EQ.
This is how you hear it:

1) varitone 4
2) varitone 1 (I can't hear any difference with varitone 4)
3) varitone 2 (bridge pickup solo)
4) varitone 3 (both pickups) I have set the bridge pickup volume at 9, and the neck pickup volume at 10. I mostly use the bridge pickup volume to dial in some extra bass (lower you set the volume of the bridge pickup the louder the neck pickup will be). If you set it lower than 9 it will be again too much bass.

Normally when I play on an amp I notice that there is a big volume difference going from the neck pickup solo to bridge pickup solo (neck pickup is much louder). But on the recording the difference is not that great. Only beware of your speaker because there is so much more (too much) bass with the neck pickup solo.



as you can see on the picture I took out the large green wire. Just to show you that it is not connected.

[chromium]

Man that is one complicated control circuit, gives me a headache trying to figure it out, are the newer ones (69-70) wired like this?
...I also don't see the neck pickup tone control in this circuit.

Yeah no kidding.  I think it's almost complicated for the sake of being complicated!  As if a short scale mahogany bass with bridge of questionable design and a monster neck pickup from hell isn't enough to send potential customers lunging en masse towards the Fender display...    A normal VTVT+toggle setup probably would have done the job just fine on these.

The tone control is hiding on the schematic over by the neck pickup (labeled with "F.B." - presumable mening "fingerboard").  I believe your bass would have the same setup and Barend's and mine.  The EB-3s that followed had a slightly different (and equally complicated) circuit.

[chromium]

Barend-
Thanks for the updated picture and the great sound clip!  I posted your clip here:

     

Well... I have an idea of what is going on now.  That's the good news, the bad news is that it is probably not the answer you want to hear.  I think your bass is "bypassed", and my hypothesis as to why your bass is just ever so slightly "bassier" than mine is difference in the impedance of your mudbucker compared to mine.

I could not find any discrepancies in looking at your wiring.  There are a couple places I can't see (under the resistor and cap over the varitone, for example) but in those places, the wires going in seem to have the right trajectories.  It is probably a safe bet all is OK under there... and your choke is *definitely* out of the circuit, with that green wire loose.

My theory is this - that your neck pickup is wound slightly hotter than mine, thus producing a slightly "boomier" tone.  I can hear the upper mids and highs in your sound - which I don't think would be there if you wired it back stock.  My neck pickup measures 29K, which is on the lower side for the behemoth mudbucker.  I bet if you measured your pickup, it might fall into the low 30K range, which seems common for these.

You could always validate this theory by temporarily hooking that green wire back up to the switch lug from which it came (even without soldering it) just to hear the difference first hand.  It may be, with that non-original blue/green bypass wire in place that we talked about earlier, that there just wasn't much filtering going on in position one to begin with!  ... and the difference after the mod wasn't as drastic as it was on mine.  It would be very interesting to hear the effects side-by-side if you did end up trying this. 



If any other readers are still here after all this troubleshooting  , please chime in with your thoughts too!  Listen to these clips to compare the sounds. 

Here again is my bass, with 1) original position 1, and 2) modified/bypassed position 1:

     

...and this is Barend's modified/bypassed position 1:

     

I think Barend's sample sounds more like my second "modified/bypassed" sample (with the upper mids and highs), but with ever so slightly more bass -like a hotter mudbucker might yield.  What do you think??

[barend]

Well... I have an idea of what is going on now.  That's the good news, the bad news is that it is probably not the answer you want to hear.  I think your bass is "bypassed", and my hypothesis as to why your bass is just ever so slightly "bassier" than mine is difference in the impedance of your mudbucker compared to mine.

You could always validate this theory by temporarily hooking that green wire back up to the switch lug from which it came (even without soldering it) just to hear the difference first hand.

Chromium, thanks for taking the time to put up the mp3's!

I think my bass sounds somewhere halfway between your original sound and your bypassed sound! your bypassed sound is much clearer (more highs and mids) than mine, I like that clearer sound.

two more questions:

-how do I hook the green wire back up to the original position, where exactly do I have to hook it? And does the added small blue-green does have effect to this, or doesn´t it matter. Once I know that I will make some new soundsamples. That might also be interesting for the rest of the EB3 fans who are still reading this topic...if any is still around here.
-did the mod effect in any way the bridge pickup? I like the sound of the bridge pickup as it is now.
I am thinking of reversing the mod but I don't want to spoil the sound of the bridge pickup.
I would be nice if I could compare the sound with that of the original wiring.

What I remember from the sound before the mod is that the baritone sound of varitone position 4 was pretty useful and also had a fair amount of bass but it was much clearer. Position 1 was even more muddy (and even louder) than now and not useful at all.

[Dave W]

I think Barend's sample sounds more like my second "modified/bypassed" sample (with the upper mids and highs), but with ever so slightly more bass -like a hotter mudbucker might yield.  What do you think??

I haven't been following the circuit discussion but I agree with your opinion that his sound sample sounds more like your second sample.

I don't think the cause is necessarily a hotter wind. In a pickup that overwound it's hard to believe the difference between 29K and maybe 30-31K would account for a noticeable difference. There could be other variables, even just the difference between two different necks.

[chromium]

I don't think the cause is necessarily a hotter wind. In a pickup that overwound it's hard to believe the difference between 29K and maybe 30-31K would account for a noticeable difference. There could be other variables, even just the difference between two different necks.

Good point on the impedance- I haven't compared enough pickups side-by-side like that to know, so that's a total assumption on my part.  You also raise an interesting consideration with the potential construction differences.  My '69 EB-3 has the earlier-style contruction, with the thin, tapered neck joint:



Is your's like that too Barend?  or does it have the later, thicker heel?  I s'pose a combination of things like this could result in slightly difference sonic characteristics.

-how do I hook the green wire back up to the original position, where exactly do I have to hook it? And does the added small blue-green does have effect to this, or doesn´t it matter.

The green wire from the choke actually spans/bridges two switch lugs - like this:




The added blue/green wire (white arrow) would need to come out, to make it truly stock.  If you can unsolder one side of it, that would do the trick for a temporary test.  If you don't have a soldering iron (or friend with one), I'd probably just skip that for the time being, though.  Hate to recommend that you try to attempt the intrusive stuff, unless you are very comfortable with it!

-did the mod effect in any way the bridge pickup? I like the sound of the bridge pickup as it is now.
I am thinking of reversing the mod but I don't want to spoil the sound of the bridge pickup.

Looking at the schematic, it shouldn't have any effect on the bridge pickup.  You could always record some before/after tests of position two to confirm this.



I think your bass sounds sweet, and it suits you playing well!  Having heard your tracks in the past on Myspace, I was wondering how well a plodding ol' EB would fit in, but it sounded good!

[chromium]

Barend-
One other note of caution:  be very careful moving wires around in there.  When I was inspecting my bass to help you in this thread, I moved a wire aside, and it popped right off the varitone switch!  It wasn't soldered on there well to begin with, and gave way when I moved it.  No biggie, becuase I could fix it easily.

My EB-2D had a real rats nest of a wiring harness in it too.  Not to offend anybody who might have worked for Gibson in this capacity - but dayum!       Hope whoever wired these up isn't building aircraft today 

[barend]

This is a picture of the neck joint...I think it is the same as on your bass, but I am not sure.
I still think it is strange that something other than the electronics can add so much more bass to your sound.
I also found a picture of how it was before I brought it to the guitar tech for the mod. Now I see that he has added the small blue green wire without telling me. I also added that picture.

I will try to hook up the big green wire tomorrow and leave the little green wire for know. Also I will try to make some new soundsamples.

[barend]

ok, here we are again with some brandnew samples (Chromium will handle the samples again):

What I did is hook the big green wire up (without soldering). I left the little green/blue wire as it is.

Here is how you hear the samples:

1) varitone 1: hooked (original)
2) varitone 1: unhooked (mod)
3) varitone 4: hooked
4) varitone 4: unhooked

as you can hear the change from varitone 1 (hooked) to varitone 1 (unhooked) isn't as huge as on your bass. Also my varitone 4 (hooked) sounds more full and bassy than yours.....I still think it is very strange.

What I don't understand is how the little green wire will change the sound if I would remove it? any idea how it will affect the sound?

Also you told me to hook the big green wire it to two lugs (?)...see quote below. I hooked it to only one. It didn't matter to which of the two that you have pointed out. In both cases the (hooked) sound was the same.

The green wire from the choke actually spans/bridges two switch lugs - like this: