Generation Gap

[Happy Face]

When I was an aspiring teen, all we had were tube amps. Since I had built shortwave radios and amps from Kits, I was usually the band tech. That meant I could handle walking over to the local hardware store and using the tube tester. But I was totally oblivious to the whole concept of biasing. Nor did brands particularly matter. GE, RCA or Sylvania seemed to be interchangeable.

Flash forward to today. A "youngster" (about 26 years old) joined our firm a little while ago. Among other things, he had played both upright and electric bass in high school and college.

So this morning I brought in a shot Winged C KT-88 to display as a work of art. The new boy asked me what it was and then what it did. "Does it, like, light up?" I guess he never played a real tube amp, though he probably used a hybrid without knowing it at some points. I gotta say I was more than a little surprised.

I wonder what happens to tube amp prices when we give up playing or die off?       

[D.M.N.]

They drop through the floor an d those of us that know buy them for a song. I'm 25 and I've been using tube amps exclusively for...8-9 years? I can bias and do basic service on my amps, and do it on my friends amps too, helps save on tech costs. Not all of us are ignorant. While bass may be primarily dominated by SS, I don't know a single guitar player over the age of 20 who doesn't primarily use a valve head. Maybe a few jazz players, who dig those Roland SS heads, and I know one guy who uses old Kustom tuck n roll heads.

Should have told him it was a light bulb. I remember the worst tube loss I suffered was I pulled two old Tung-Sol 6550s from a Sunn 1200s, put them away in a box to swap into my 200s, had a party, someone fell on the box. Found it the next morning, unwrapped them, two shattered vintage 6550s. Sad day indeed.

[amptech]

I wonder what happens to tube amp prices when we give up playing or die off?     

When I bought my first tube amp in 92 or 93, It was Trace Elliot and Hartke or nothing for most of the local bass players.
Peavey combo's for beginners. Not much tube amp love for bass players back then. The local shop had the only good tube tech in the southeastern regions in the country it was rumored, he was a pot smoking original with a magic touch it was believed. Only he had the contacts who knew the russians, whom again could ship these 'illegal' tubes to the shop. The truth though, was that you delivered the amp for repair, got it back a year later stuffed full of high wattage resistors, and it blew up in smoke at the gig next week (that's what happened to my MM HD-130).

Today  we have internet, much better quality tubes (both china and russia actually makes decent tubes) and kids in general know much more about tube amps than when I was a kid. There are many good sounding tube amps on the market (although many are built poorly) and the secondhand market is good. Electronics is available cheaper than ever (components). Measuring equipment is very good now, and cheap enough for kids to buy.

I have a tube amp workshop. In the mid 2000's it was not possible to even hope for making a business out of repairing old amps, today I need more space. I planned a vacation this summer, looks like it's been delayed to October....
Maybe things are different in other parts of the world, but as for scandinavia, kids buy instruments, play rock music, and buy tube amps like never before.

Remember, in the late 60's in the US Fender was pushing out solid state and gibson stopped making amps because they were outdated (and other factors). Many believed this was the end of tubes, but it wasn't.

Later, Jim Marshall was about to stop making tube amps because tube manufacturers closed down and few people back then dealed with russia, china and eastern europe. But even then, there was people with firm belief that tubes would survive, they started working with manufacturers in the far east and eastern europe and managed to talk Jim into continuing making amps.

Quality never goes out of style, but tastes and trend challenges it sometimes.

I'm much more worried about beer, actually. Today it's impossible to buy good belgian or british beer because of all that crap with chocolate and chilli and whatnot, brewed in a bachelor pad bathtub

EDIT: ...And to comment the generation gap, I must admit I meet more grown ups that does not know what a tube is than kids. That puzzels me sometimes.. You know, I say, radiolamps.. like those lit up bulbs you had inside radio's and tv's? Most people respond they never had a habit of poking inside electronics. I guess radio's and tv's 'needed' to be transistorized, while instrument amps (and lots of medical and industrial equipment) resist by nature.

[Dave W]

A 26 y.o. who has played bass yet doesn't know what a tube does is unusual, even considering that SS amps are more common in the bass world.

I agree with amptech, tube amps are much more common today than 25 years ago. Knowledge is much greater thanks to the internet.

[the mojo hobo]

Everything is more common than it was 25 years ago. They are building musical equipment faster then it is wearing out.

[the mojo hobo]

I bought my first all tube amp in 1968 from the bassist of Four Days and a Knight on North Sedgwick street in Chicago. it was a Vox Beatle in those days, an Ac-100 now. It was sitting on four 18" speakers (already spoken for) and he had a Fender Bass V to demo it. Before that I had an Eko amp with 1 15" and a Standell 2 15" both were SS. I found a 2 15 JBL cabinet that was home made to JBL specs. That combo served me well for many years until I spilled a beer on the tubes (the AC-100 conveniently has an opening right over the output tubes) and saw a very small fireworks show. I couldn't get it fixed because output transformers weren't available, but I kept it anyway, and bought a Kustom 200.

Side note; I sold the Kustom on ebay to Steve Barr who introduced me to the Dudepit.

I moved to Ohio and didn't play for a few years but still bought and re-sold basses and amps on ebay. There was a time I had 3 MusicMan amp heads. About the turn of the century I found the Sunn 300t and 215 and 410. That amp had tone on loan from god, 300 watts of all tube goodness. Absolutely the best amp I ever owned. The day I sold it I set it up in the garage facing out and it just sounded amazing. No regrets though. I am now using a Genz Benz rig that gets the job done and doesn't weigh 200 pounds.

I also had an Eden 300t, but it didn't even come close to the Sunn 300t in power or on tone goodness. I traded that for an Eden WT800 that I haven't yet got to sound like I want. That is my practice amp.

Now gigging with a GB Shuttlemax 1200 through a GB Neox 212. The Shuttlemax does have a tube channel and I use it.

[D.M.N.]

I moved to Ohio and didn't play for a few years but still bought and re-sold basses and amps on ebay. There was a time I had 3 MusicMan amp heads. About the turn of the century I found the Sunn 300t and 215 and 410. That amp had tone on loan from god, 300 watts of all tube goodness. Absolutely the best amp I ever owned. The day I sold it I set it up in the garage facing out and it just sounded amazing. No regrets though. I am now using a Genz Benz rig that gets the job done and doesn't weigh 200 pounds.

Funny enough, the first tube amp I bought was the Fender version, the Bassman 300pro. Fantastic amps, only sold it to finance my switch to a full Sunn 2000s rig.

[Psycho Bass Guy]

About the turn of the century I found the Sunn 300t and 215 and 410. That amp had tone on loan from god, 300 watts of all tube goodness. Absolutely the best amp I ever owned.

That's funny because my old Sunn300T is the SINGLE amp I have ever sold because I didn't like it and there are VERY few big tube bass amps out there that I don't either already own or have played.  Mine was bought used because of the four that I tried new, two of them blew up in the store, one was drastically overpriced and the other sounded like crap. After having been in them and seeing the awful over-complicated autobias circuit, that all makes sense now.

[doombass]

When I bought my first tube amp in 92 or 93, It was Trace Elliot and Hartke or nothing for most of the local bass players.
Peavey combo's for beginners. Not much tube amp love for bass players back then.

That's how I remember things as well in the early 90's around the time I started playing bass. Trace Elliot was THE bass amp at the time. Most multi-gig backlines had Trace-rigs and most bassplayers aimed for owning one. I never got on with them, I preferred Peavey heads. Acoustics were cheap and considered beginners amps. Tube amps for bass were generally said to be outdated heavy, power lacking and unreliable, while at the same time as a guitarplayer you'd have to have a tube amp.

When I think about it though regarding tube amps I remember Mesa 400 being semi accepted. It all seemed to change towards the end of the 90's. Ampegs started to make a comeback on the scene along with Sunn, Orange, Hiwatt, Peavey. All of a sudden in the '00s just about every brand had  bass tube amp offerings. Probably had a lot to do with earlier mentioned regained tube supplies on the western market.

[Dave W]

That's funny because my old Sunn300T is the SINGLE amp I have ever sold because I didn't like it and there are VERY few big tube bass amps out there that I don't either already own or have played.  Mine was bought used because of the four that I tried new, two of them blew up in the store, one was drastically overpriced and the other sounded like crap. After having been in them and seeing the awful over-complicated autobias circuit, that all makes sense now.

I only know the early Sunn amps (and not too well at that). Is the 300T the one FMIC put out starting about 20 years ago, or was there an earlier version? I know a girl who used an FMIC Sunn for several years, sounded good with her Stingray but definitely didn't sound like a real Sunn to me.

[the mojo hobo]

Yes it was FMIC and also sold as the Bassman 300.

[D.M.N.]

That's funny because my old Sunn300T is the SINGLE amp I have ever sold because I didn't like it and there are VERY few big tube bass amps out there that I don't either already own or have played.  Mine was bought used because of the four that I tried new, two of them blew up in the store, one was drastically overpriced and the other sounded like crap. After having been in them and seeing the awful over-complicated autobias circuit, that all makes sense now.

From what I recall the early production runs of the Sunn 300T had some known issues in the power supply, I remember reading years ago about high failure rates until they got it sorted out. I can't seem to find the info anymore, but in the later production of the 300T they revised it and the later Bassman 300pro had less problems. My 300pro never had any issues, though I can't say I was overly thrilled with all the knobs and sliders, and the distortion was...eh. Thought it did cleans really well though.

I only know the early Sunn amps (and not too well at that). Is the 300T the one FMIC put out starting about 20 years ago, or was there an earlier version? I know a girl who used an FMIC Sunn for several years, sounded good with her Stingray but definitely didn't sound like a real Sunn to me.

Yes, I believe they introduced the 1200s and 300T some time in the early to mid 90s, both sharing the same preamp, but the 1200s featuring a SS power amp. Not really any Sunn DNA in them though, Bill Hughes designed them as an evolution of the SVT, so they share a lot of their core concept with his work for Ampeg. They were completely designed by Fender employees and just badged as Sunn, then later rebadged as Fender when they shuttered the doors on Sunn in 2002.

[Pilgrim]

Now gigging with a GB Shuttlemax 1200 through a GB Neox 212. The Shuttlemax does have a tube channel and I use it.

Wisdom, sir, great wisdom.   

[Psycho Bass Guy]

I only know the early Sunn amps (and not too well at that). Is the 300T the one FMIC put out starting about 20 years ago, or was there an earlier version? I know a girl who used an FMIC Sunn for several years, sounded good with her Stingray but definitely didn't sound like a real Sunn to me.

That is indeed the same amp, and it sounded NOTHING like real old Sunn amps. The old Model T sounds very much like a smaller SVT and the 200 and 2000S have a punchy midrange that sounds like a clearer Ampeg. FMIC also did a "reissue" Model T for guitar that was roundly rejected by guitar players and sounded even worse for bass at the same time.