Dire financial situation at Gibson?

[uwe]

"The TariffCaster"

Made in Mexico, it is true. Behind a very thick wall - and let me say this ... - they will pay for.

Watch this space. The release of the new model will be tweeted in due course (once the dismissals are all out of the way).

[planetgaffnet]

If Yamaha ends up making Gibsons, they better still make them in America or the brand becomes pointless.

I've seen this sort of comment elsewhere, predominantly on Hamer pages.  I really don't see why there's this issue with US guitar manufacturing = great, everywhere else (especially the far east, lol) = shit. 

The argument with Hamer was always read that the US produced models were head and shoulders over Asian-built models, that's as maybe, but there's also this mindset in place where people treat 'imports' with contempt without even having laid eyes on one.  Let's also not forget that one of your great American brands (cough, Fender, cough) were tantamount on shutting down Hamer.

With all due respect, it's too easy for people to bark out a statement that the brand will become pointless if it's made in China, without any meat on the bone to back that up.  All you'll have is a secondhand marketplace where guitars will be advertised as pre-Yamaha or whatever, just like the pre-CBS thing with Fender.  It's also unlikely that US-made Gibsons will become unavailable to anyone who wants one.  There's hundreds of thousands of them out there.  Also, you've only got to look very briefly online to see how many people are raving over the new (Indonesian!) Epiphone Thunderbirds...I've seen more positivity about those than any US built Thunderbirds.

I do understand that most of the guys here are American and you're proud to own and play American-made instruments, but come on, it's not 1960, it's a global marketplace.  We don't have any major guitar/bass manufacturing here in the UK, it's small number stuff (similar to Lull); Shuker, ACG etc. so for us at least, pretty much every instrument is an import, be it from Indonesia, South Korea, China or the US.  I've had as many decent built US guitars as I have poor ones.  It's about making music at the end of the day, not about the name on the headstock of the guitar!

[4stringer77]

True, fine guitars can be made anywhere in the world. To me, something like a Les Paul, which has been around since the birth of rock and roll, deserves to be made in the country of it's origin as much as a samurai sword should be made in Japan or Champagne from France or caviar from Russia. Calling something a Gibson when it isn't American makes as much sense as calling a cowboy hat a beret.

[slinkp]

Yeah it's nothing to do with quality at all.  People associate American brands with their feelings about American culture and heritage more generally. I don't think this is a uniquely American phenomenon, either, I think you find these feelings all over.

I'm hardly a vocal flag-waving patriot, but I get it. I would be a bit sad if "Gibson" didn't make anything here, and likewise a bit sad if there were no more MIA Fender. I wouldn't freak out about it or anything.

[patman]

I think I associate a Gibson with a particular sound.

I always think a good Gibson acoustic guitar sounds bigger and fatter than anything....and that certainly is true of the basses

[westen44]

I think I associate a Gibson with a particular sound.

I always think a good Gibson acoustic guitar sounds bigger and fatter than anything....and that certainly is true of the basses

Which is why the Gibson basses have something going for them as far as I'm concerned.  If I want clanky and trebly, of course there are plenty of other places to look. 

[Dave W]

I've seen this sort of comment elsewhere, predominantly on Hamer pages.  I really don't see why there's this issue with US guitar manufacturing = great, everywhere else (especially the far east, lol) = shit. 

The argument with Hamer was always read that the US produced models were head and shoulders over Asian-built models, that's as maybe, but there's also this mindset in place where people treat 'imports' with contempt without even having laid eyes on one.  Let's also not forget that one of your great American brands (cough, Fender, cough) were tantamount on shutting down Hamer.

With all due respect, it's too easy for people to bark out a statement that the brand will become pointless if it's made in China, without any meat on the bone to back that up.  All you'll have is a secondhand marketplace where guitars will be advertised as pre-Yamaha or whatever, just like the pre-CBS thing with Fender.  It's also unlikely that US-made Gibsons will become unavailable to anyone who wants one.  There's hundreds of thousands of them out there.  Also, you've only got to look very briefly online to see how many people are raving over the new Epiphone Thunderbirds...I've seen more positivity about those than any US built Thunderbirds.

I do understand that most of the guys here are American and you're proud to own and play American-made instruments, but come on, it's not 1960, it's a global marketplace.  We don't have any major guitar/bass manufacturing here in the UK, it's small number stuff (similar to Lull); Shuker, ACG etc. so for us at least, pretty much every instrument is an import, be it from Indonesia, South Korea, China or the US.  I've had as many decent built US guitars as I have poor ones.  It's about making music at the end of the day, not about the name on the headstock of the guitar!

I hear what you're saying, and I agree in general. But you have to remember that everything is built to a price point. I've seen $200 Indonesian basses with top notch workmanship... and inferior hardware, electronics, and woods. This is understandable. They are trying to reach a certain market.

Using your Hamer example, if an Asian Hamer gets the job done for someone, that's great. It's certainly not shit. OTOH it doesn't have the same grade of materials as the US Hamers did. It's not just the same guitar or bass made in a different country.

Just a little aside, FYI, since you brought it up: Hamer, Ovation and the rest of Kaman's music division was losing money hand over fist for years -- they had been desperately trying to sell the division off for years. Fender bought it at a bargain price for the C. Bruno wholesale distribution business and to use the Hamer/Ovation facility and workmen to build Guild acoustics, which were in demand. If Fender hadn't bought Kaman, Hamer would have been gone even sooner.

[slinkp]

I would also like to point out I'm glad that, for example, the Danelectro brand and designs -- originally US-made -- were revived and produced for a while, albeit now in either Korea or China (I've lost track, I think they moved at some point). I have one guitar and one bass from circa 2000 and I really like 'em both.

If that were Gibson's ultimate fate, well, I'd like them to be from their home country, but it's better than nothing.

[planetgaffnet]

Just citing Hamer and the 'Imports, We don't need your freaking imports!' thing, I'd love to be able to instigate some sort of blind testing with US and US-import models to see whether the people making these quotes can really tell the difference.

I'd concur with Dave here that, aside from the three-point bridge, the hardware on US built guitars is generally on point; I own a pair of far-east Epiphones (a Dot and a Phantomatic) and I've swapped out both with Sperzel machines, new bridges and pickups.  I think that at their price point it's desirable to be able to do this for your own gain rather that just live with the foibles thrown on you at a something purchased at a higher pricepoint.  If Epiphone (for instance) started putting Babicz bridges on their basses or Schaller machines, I swear people would still be unhappy.

[uwe]

Gibson is as American a brand as Harley-Davidson and Jack Daniels are - the brand mystique will always require an American manufacturing/production site, whether that is Nashville, Kalamazoo or Anchorage is probably irrelevant to most - even US - buyers. That doesn't mean that all Gibsons have to come from there, not even necessarily all the top quality ones. I'm sure that the happy owners of BMW SUVs all over the world (no BMW SUV is produced in Germany, they are all US-made) can live with the fact that Spartanburg, NC, is not a suburb of Munich and pretty far away from Bavaria as well if you take a close look at the map.



BTW, BMW USA is by the now the largest exporter (exports from the US to overseas) of US-made cars. That's a fact message concise enough to even fit, say, Twitter format.

[Dave W]

I would also like to point out I'm glad that, for example, the Danelectro brand and designs -- originally US-made -- were revived and produced for a while, albeit now in either Korea or China (I've lost track, I think they moved at some point). I have one guitar and one bass from circa 2000 and I really like 'em both.

If that were Gibson's ultimate fate, well, I'd like them to be from their home country, but it's better than nothing.

Whatever happens, it won't come down to a situation like Danelectro. Evets, the owner of the brand, has no connection to the original company. Likewise with the newer Harmony, Supro etc. Each is just an old name being reused. Not so with Gibson. Even if Gibson were to be liquidated, whoever bought the rights would still have a direct connection.

Just citing Hamer and the 'Imports, We don't need your freaking imports!' thing, I'd love to be able to instigate some sort of blind testing with US and US-import models to see whether the people making these quotes can really tell the difference.

I'd concur with Dave here that, aside from the three-point bridge, the hardware on US built guitars is generally on point; I own a pair of far-east Epiphones (a Dot and a Phantomatic) and I've swapped out both with Sperzel machines, new bridges and pickups.  I think that at their price point it's desirable to be able to do this for your own gain rather that just live with the foibles thrown on you at a something purchased at a higher pricepoint.  If Epiphone (for instance) started putting Babicz bridges on their basses or Schaller machines, I swear people would still be unhappy.

There are plenty of tests like that already on YouTube. Problem is, the sound is miked with a smartphone or low cost recorder and played back through computer speakers. You would just about have to do it in person. That's not practical, and the result would still be subjective.

Upgrades, especially pickup upgrades, can definitely make a cheap instrument sound like a much more expensive one. The question is always whether or not it's worth the cost to try. eBay and Reverb are full of upgraded guitars and basses because the seller didn't like the result and is trying in vain to recoup his money.

[uwe]

Now don't get tilted off your Axis, it's just a rumour ...

[4stringer77]

They outlasted Toys R' Us, so Henry can hang his hat on that. Toys R' Us was another dying asset of Bain capitol along with guitar center. According to one article, Amazon and Wal-mart put the nails in the coffin. Never mind the Chinese, someday every retail item will be made by one single company and they will all be sold on Amazon. There will be no Gibson or Fender or Ibanez or anything. It will come down to one single model of guitar and one single model of bass, the Bezos bass, and every person who wants one will only have the choice of one standard gauge set of strings and one 15 watt solid state amp with a single 10" inch speaker to play it through. Nobody will be allowed to get famous either but at least it will be a true global marketplace and the price of everything will be the same around the world and things will be paid for by a single electronic currency.

[uwe]

Man, you gotta cut down on that Rush 2112 24/7 immersion, you're od'ing!!! 



"I know it's most unusual
To come before you so
But I've found an ancient miracle
I thought that you should know
Listen to my music
And hear what it can do
There's something here as strong as life
I know that it will reach you"


"Yes, we know, it's nothing new
It's just a waste of time
We have no need for ancient ways
The world is doing fine
Another toy that helped destroy
The elder race of man
Forget about your silly whim
It doesn't fit the plan"

[4stringer77]

Why do you think Spielberg is putting "the temples of syrinx" in his new movie? Preconditioning of course.