I am shocked!

[Dave W]

Kiss' Gene Simmons Accused of Sexual Battery in Lawsuit

According to the lawsuit, Simmons, 68, repeatedly grabbed the woman's hand and "forcefully placed it on his knee and held it on his knee." It also alleges that the musician "forcibly flicked/struck" the woman's throat, later providing an "incoherent explanation" for his behavior.

The suit also says that while posing for a promotional photograph together after the interview, Simmons "reached toward Plaintiff Doe's buttocks and touched it."

Maybe she was expecting Gene Simmons to act like Richard Simmons.

You all know what I think of Gene, but this happy horseshit is getting completely out of hand.

[Granny Gremlin]

Sorry, out of hand in what way exactly; not sure I understand what you mean.

[Rob]

Sorry, out of hand in what way exactly; not sure I understand what you mean.

Throat flicking is just a piece of weirdness.

[Pilgrim]

At least from what Dave quoted, all I see is poor judgment, but it seems that's all it takes.

I still don't understand how Garrison Keillor touching a woman's back and moving his hand 6 inches, then immediately apologizing, was sexual assault either. Based on the information available, it seems incredibly overblown.

[uwe]

Tantamount to rape, the man's a demon.

I'll never forgive these people for taking Frank Underwood off the show.

We live in a world where raping infants for a sick video shoot and patting a 17-year old on her butt are all somehow lumped together. One is a case for a severe jail sentence (and psychological treatment), the other for a simple old-fashioned slap in the face. I think there is a vast difference between the two.

[uwe]

Sorry, out of hand in what way exactly; not sure I understand what you mean.

Not Gene's hand, he didn't mean.

[Dave W]

Tantamount to rape, the man's a demon.

I'll never forgive these people for taking Frank Underwood off the show.

We live in a world where raping infants for a sick video shoot and patting a 17-year old on her butt are all somehow lumped together. One is a case for a severe jail sentence (and psychological treatment), the other for a simple old-fashioned slap in the face. I think there is a vast difference between the two.

Exactly. This isn't rape or attempted rape, it's not a case where a subordinate is afraid of losing her job, etc. If it really happened, slap in the face or a NO or STOP is appropriate. Instead, she files a Jane Doe suit seeking damages. Screw her. I won't be surprised if her identity is discovered, and then she'll find out what real harassment is.

At least she's not bringing up something that allegedly happened 20 years ago. I'm sick and tired of careers being destroyed over minor infractions from ages ago. No doubt some of these men did what they're accused of, but some of the accusations are really suspect. It's just like false rape accusations, they make some people doubt all rape allegations. That hurts real victims.

[clankenstein]

In the immortal word of Todd Rundgren - You just don't know what people will do next.

[bassilisk]

At least she's not bringing up something that allegedly happened 20 years ago. I'm sick and tired of careers being destroyed over minor infractions from ages ago. No doubt some of these men did what they're accused of, but some of the accusations are really suspect. It's just like false rape accusations, they make some people doubt all rape allegations. That hurts real victims.

I have to say I'm behind this. It reminds me of a case from long ago about a world famous comedian, Fatty Arbuckle. The guy was like Elvis in his day. Then he was accused of raping a young woman at a party, went to trial for it 3 times and was ultimately exonerated, which included an apology from the court for subjecting him to an ordeal he clearly had nothing to do with. His fall from grace was swift and final. No one would touch him afterwards.
https://www.thoughtco.com/fatty-arbuckle-scandal-1779625

[gearHed289]

It's just like false rape accusations, they make some people doubt all rape allegations. That hurts real victims.

That's what really sucks. There are obviously countless women and children that have been violated, but then along come a handful of gold-diggers to cast doubt on the stories of the genuinely abused. 

[uwe]

The "classic TV crime rape" - at night, in the park, between strangers that haven't even had fleeting contact before, the prowling villain, with lots of physical violence and a victim left behind with obviously savaged genitials, skin scrapes, torn clothes and beaten black and blue - is a rare thing except in times of war or genocide. And it's not the type of rape that has ever posed much of an issue for criminal prosecution, these cases are clear-cut if you can get your hands on the assailant/rapist. In most societies, there was never any sympathy for these types of rapists (except in times when the rule of law is done away with, eg civil war etc).

But the overwhelming part of rape scenarios aren't like that at all. They are between people who know each other, sometimes even relatives or spouses, they are placed in a setting and have a surrounding story, they are about "things getting out of hand", involve alcohol, withdrawn initial consent (or what was perceived as such), partnership conflicts etc. That is where it gets difficult and contentious.

[Pilgrim]

As a father of two daughters, I'm very sympathetic with the cases in which there has been repeated pressure and overt behavior. Same goes for actual physical "manhandling" or attempted sexual contact. 

If it was an incident that happened 20 years ago, I think the evidence is stale and clock has run out. If the behavior persisted, there should be someone with a more recent history to come forward.

A single instance of inappropriate touch, or a single comment?  I don't think that in most cases those are harassment, I think they're bad judgment. I know that in such a case, either of my daughters would speak up and be clear about shutting it down.

When people fear for their jobs or the entire environment is toxic, that's more complex. I also think it will never end, and that human behavior is too variable to entirely prevent it.

[Alanko]

Couldn't happen to a classier guy, and frankly I don't find it too big a leap of the imagination to think that he has bigger skeletons in the closet that may or may not come to light.

[uwe]

What we all tend to underestimate is that Gene's "knees" - if your hand is forced on them - are a spiky affair:



Ouch!

And now for something completely different:

I have a daughter too and she made her first serious entrance into the world of the workplace (as opposed to making a few bucks as a waitress) about two years ago. It's where men meet women (over time it actually becomes THE place where the two - or three - sexes meet each other for longer periods of time), rub shoulders and are not always eye to eye as regards what still constitutes "rubbing shoulders" and what doesn't.

Her boss was very nurturing, furthered her career (nice pay check too), gave her an unusual amount of responsibility and then - you knew it was coming - got a crush on her. Except that she didn't. ("He's almost as old as you, dad, yikes!!!"  )

And then there was this one after-work dinner which my daughter thought became a little too romantic, candlelight and all. After which she had a sleepless night (and lengthy tel cons with her parents) and then invited him for lunch the next day or day after to tell him that she was happy to learn from him and liked working with him, but that he had crossed a line that last evening that he should not cross again and that, thank you, no, she would definitely not want to be his mistress and that she though that his approach tainted everything*** he had done for her. And he accepted that.

*** I told her that was nonsense: "Men can appreciate your work wholeheartedly and still want to have sex with you, it's one of our few real multitasking talents."

And while she has meanwhile moved on to studying again and finishing her Master, they still see each other when he's in town - for well-lit business lunches I am told (and she received another job offer from him to help him in his new lobbying position - she declined, but felt flattered).

I don't think the guy did anything criminally inappropriate (and told my daughter at the time: "Welcome to the real world, unless you are butt-ugly as a woman, this will happen to you again and again, you will have to learn how to handle it gracefully."), but I was actually proud of her reaction. She became neither a victim nor did she go on a vendetta character-assassinating him.

[Dave W]

Lots of good comments, guys.

Then there's the corruption of language we're seeing now. Whatever Al Franken did or didn't do, patting a woman's butt cheek isn't "sexual assault." Calling it that cheapens real sexual assault. And whatever Roy Moore may or may not have done, he's not a pedophile -- none of his alleged victims were pre-pubescent. That's an insult to real child victims.