The Last Bass Outpost

Quote from: 4stringer77 on January 29, 2013, 09:54:39 AM
Steve Boone from the Lovin Spoonful played an un modified starfire on all those early albums. So there's another usable reference point.

Didn't know that. Chris Hillman played on also, but I don't know if he used it on recordings.

It is something of a cliche but I do think it is true that much of the Jack's tone comes from the right hand. It is certainly more true about Jack than about other players. I don't think the electronics that they put in had very much to do with it. According to the guy on TB, that was all passive controls. It was a battery in there but that was for the thingy that lowered the impedance of the pickup. So it was not active low-z pickups and not active tone controls according to him. To my experience, a SF bass with bisonics sounds similar to Jack's modded SF, but it does not sound like Phil's EB-3 with bisonics. My Dearmond SF with darkstars sounds closer to Phil's sound than my Guild SF with bisonics. But my darkstarred Dearmond does not sound anywhere close to Jack's SF. I think a Epi JC or a Ric 4001/4003 with only the bridge pickup comes closer to Jack's SF than a darkstarred bass does.

What's your experience here? People can have very different ideas about sound. To me, Jack's sound, while having a wide frequency, has a lot to do with the focused mids, while Phil's sound has flatter frequencies, perhaps even wider frequency rate.

Quote from: Dave W on January 29, 2013, 09:16:41 AM
I thought Rick Turner said they did much more than just put a magnet in, but it's been a long time and I no longer have the article.

Yes, I thought so too. I was very surprised to hear otherwise (and I looked like a fool since I insisted Jack had low-z pups). But that guy on talkbass said he knows Jack and that Jack had said that he probably knows Jack's basses better than Jack himself does. So I guess it's true. Phil's bass had low-z though.

Here is the thread on TB: http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f8/club-dark-star-731040/index31.html#post13445950

Quote from: 4stringer77 on January 29, 2013, 07:24:08 AM
Casady played his Starfire on the Hot Tuna Live album from the New Orleans house at Berkeley right? That's one of my all time favorite bass tones and album. I'm guessing the bass was modified by then also. Seems like the pickups can vary greatly. Maybe there was no set amount of windings? This guy has a nice one.



And the same guy has another vid that makes it sound like an EB0

Oh yes, the tone on that album is the best bass tone ever! It's his second SF (same as in the video you posted) played through a Versatone Pan-O-Flex. The bass had low-pass, hi-pass and band-pass filter for each pickup I think.

Strings will of coarse do a lot with the sound. I just tried Chromes on my SF. Didn't like it at all. TI-flats gives a good sound but the are so floppy. I will try DR Legends (HiBeams flats) next. And then there is Jack's right hand technique. The way he tends to hit the strings rather than pluck them is crucial I think.

Quote from: 4stringer77 on January 28, 2013, 12:47:02 PM
Would be nice if the bass sounded kinda like this.

but I'm sure Jack's technique and all those knobs might have something to do with the sound.

I think the guy you posted earlier comes pretty close to this sound. He doesn't nail it but it's close enough. A lot closer than the promo clip with the reissue.

Btw, has anyone who has owned a bisonic measured the kOhm on it? I got four bisonic. One is broken, one measures around 6 kOhm, one around 14 and one is above 16. Huge difference there.

Quote from: Dave W on January 28, 2013, 05:28:35 PM
Not to mention the modified pickup.

Funny how Jack and Phil moved past those basses after a short time, yet people are still looking for the sound they gave up. NTTAWWT.

The only thing he did to modify the pickups was to add another magnet. Bisonics usually have two magnets in the bridge position and only one for the neck pickup. So there is an empty slot there where he put a magnet. I did that myself. It gives a little higher output but does not change the sound much.

What they did was that they put in electronics that lowered the impedance, but the left the pickup untouched. There is a guy that came on talkbass that told me about this. Jack got it wrong in that flyguitar interview where he says the pickups were low-z. They're not in themselves but the lowered the impedance. Check out the Club Darkstar thread on talkbass to read all about it.

I think the bass will sell reasonably well (genuine bisonic or not). It is a legendary model for sure. The JC Sig is one of Epiphone's best seller and it has been in production for a long time. This bass will appeal to the same people (and in a couple of years might be in the same price range). It might even sell better than the Jackbass only because it says Guild and not Epiphone on the headstock.

The guitars make a fine budget alternative for a Gibson hollowbody, just like in the old days. And they do sound sweet!

Quote from: 4stringer77 on January 28, 2013, 09:06:58 AM
I found a couple other aftermarket bi-sonic copies. These NuSonics

http://www.lhnborn.com/page7.htm

and Curtis Novak makes a bi-sonic in mudbucker clothing

http://curtisnovak.com/pickups/EB-BS.shtml

Curtis is rumored to be working on a standard looking replica bi-sonic as well.
So even if the new Guild bi-sonic blows, there's other options. Have to admit some of those other Newark st. guitar models sounded sweet.

My friend was planning on making bisonics. I don't know if this put a hold on those plans. I got help from people who has worked at Hagström.

Yes, the guitars sound fantastic. I might get me a Starfire III or a IV later on.

Quote from: 4stringer77 on January 28, 2013, 07:36:50 AM
It's also strange that Hagstrom, which is still in business, doesn't make the bi-sonic for themselves. If you're looking for spot on vintage, I tend to believe no reissue, no matter how lovingly made, can ever truly capture a vintage instrument exactly.

Actually, the new Hagström guitars and basses have little to do with Hagström. The Swedish company Hagström still exists but the brand name Hagström is used under license by the Canadian company American Music & Sound. But I agree, it is strange that they don't make the bisonic themselves. American Music & Sound does make all pickups and they have modeled them after the original Hagström pickups. The could even have but it in the Viking bass, since they changed the original design of that anyhow (it was called Concorde in the 60s - only the guitar was called Viking). It got the exact same body measures as the Guild SF.

The history of Hagström is very interesting. The company is located close to the border to Norway in a small rather remote village called Älvdalen in a province called Dalarna (which is by many Swedes considered to be the essence of "Swedishness"). It was founded in 1921 but it was not until the 50s that they started making guitars, basses and amps. They also had the license for Fender amps in Sweden. It was a family business and just about everybody in the village of Älvdalen worked there. They were very innovative. Among other things they had a patent for a special guitar pickups using local Swedish magnets and of course with their patented H-truss rod the could make "the fastest neck in the world" (their slogan). Some wellknown people have played Hagström, Elvis and Zappa for instance. Noel Redding sometimes played an 8-string bass from Hagström. The also made PAs. ABBA used Hagström PAs on their 1974 world tour.

I got a friend who makes pickups. He has studied both the DS and the bisonic. Recently he re-wound a bisonic from a Hagström Coronado for a bass player from a famous band from Älvdalen. He actually got some NOS bobbins from Hagström to fix the pickup. You can see some info on his facebook: http://www.facebook.com/UrbanPickups

I still have doubts about the pickup. First of all, I think the promo video does not sound close enough to an original bisonic, even though there are some similarities. Like me, they play through a Bassman. I am familliar with the combo Bassman+bisonic. I don't think it has to do with the recording. That does not color the sound enough to make it unrecognizable. It might be the strings. I have had rounds on my Guild, but there are rounds and there are rounds...

But the thing that feeds my doubts the most is how they promote it. If I were in charge of the promotion at Guild, I would do anything to clear away any doubts. They should know very well people have doubts, after all, the standard of the industry is not to make authentic remakes but to make "modern interpretations". Buying a new Fender Stratocaster is not the same as buying the guitar Hendrix played, and Gibson can't even make a descent PAF or mudbucker these days. So, if it is a genuine copy of the original, Guild should be very interested in letting everybody know precisely that. I would state loud and clear it is a genuine copy, I would have promotion pictures of the pickup out of the bass, and I would give details such as kOhm, magnet type and so on. And I would also state clearly it is a copy of the Hagström bisonic and not a copy of the Darkstar. After all, what many, perhaps most, people like about the SF is not the bass itself but the pickup. The post-69 Guild humbucker version does not have the same vintage value, and it is not associated with Casady, Lesh and Alembic.

Also, seeing as Fender owns Guild, if it is the genuine thing, I would also make a Fender Berry Oakley Sig Tractor bass and launch it at the same time as the SF.

So, the question is, are the people at Guild really this bad a promotion? Or do they not have the genuine thing to promote?

That said, I sooooooooo much hope this is the genuine thing. It would be the best news ever. Only a genuine remake of the Gibson LP Triumph could come close. (Not that I need any of those two seeing as I have vintage ones already).

Quote from: HERBIE on January 27, 2013, 12:54:06 PM
Fascinating...

I'm totally unfamiliar with these items... is that a selector switch between the pups of a potentiometer to slide between the pair...?

No, slide is the volume. The four buttons are 1 & 2 - pickup selectors, and 3 & 4 - tone selectors. Hagström used to make accordions but after Elvis there was no market so the started making guitars instead. In their first design they used a lot of details from accordions, like those buttons. The even made guitars with necks completely covered in mother-of-pearl - they had so much in stock for the accordions. Guess they figured they might as well slap it on a guitar rather than letting it sit the warehouse.

I really hope this new bisonic is made to the original specs, but I doubt it. Rumour says it is not a true replica but a "modern remake" or something like that. The original uses unusually thin thread which is not at all common these days (darkstars have thicker gauge). But if the bobbin and all the hardware is the same one could always have them re-wound.

Close-up of the six-string bisonic:

Quote from: Dave W on January 25, 2013, 05:21:11 PM
My understanding is that the Bi-sonic was a Guild design made for them by Hagstrom, rather than an existing Hagstrom pickup that Guild bought. I could be wrong, though. In any case, it's not rocket science.

No, the bisonic is an original Hagström design. Hagström had them on their Coronado bass introduced in -63. Guild started buying them in -65 for the SF. Hagström also had a six string version of it, for bass, not guitar!!! The six-string is extremely rare. I have only seen one for sale ever here in Sweden. Asking price was about 10.000 usd. I got the 4-string version, which is also very rare. Truly amazing sound!

Fantastic sound on your bass in those videos, especially the second one where one can hear the bass better. I would write this "It is a little more low mids focussed than a split P but it certainly has that open and woody character" to describe it, if you didn't already write precisely that. 

Great bass, for a great band!