I've wondered before why Gibson only uses the word mahogany in its descriptions, rather than calling it genuine mahogany or Honduran mahogany. It would be a marketing advantage over competitors who don't specify a type or who use African mahogany (khaya), which is not a genuine mahogany species.
Last night I went to MF to look at strings and saw a front page blurb for some Gibson limited edition guitars at $1900 and up; there are six of them listed. The description of all these specifies genuine mahogany -- like the "Gibson Flying V History" (http://"gibson%20flying%20v%20history") which is "Built using only Genuine Mahogany..." Yet in looking over the descriptions of all the other guitars and basses at MF or on Gibson's website, I can't find any other reference to genuine mahogany, not even in the Gibson Custom section, not even on the VOS models.
Does this mean Gibson isn't using genuine mahogany on most models? Sure seems like a good possibility.
A marketing advantage is probably not worth the hassle of having your supply of lumber confiscated by the government. Honduran mahogany is listed in CITES Appendix II which could make it more difficult to import from it's native location and subject to scrutiny, but the same species (Swietenia macrophylla) is plantation grown in India, Fiji, Bangladesh, and Indonesia.
Does ANYONE actually respond to terms like "genuine Mahogany" anymore?
It's either mahogany or it's not. That kind of wording was outdated in the 1950's.
Unless it's naugahyde, made from genuine Naugas....
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v698/galexiegirl/vintage%20history/5_naugaA.jpg)
Quote from: the mojo hobo on July 15, 2014, 01:42:21 PM
A marketing advantage is probably not worth the hassle of having your supply of lumber confiscated by the government. Honduran mahogany is listed in CITES Appendix II which could make it more difficult to import from it's native location and subject to scrutiny, but the same species (Swietenia macrophylla) is plantation grown in India, Fiji, Bangladesh, and Indonesia.
I agree, but the plantation grown
swietenia macrophylla is still often called Honduran, and in any case it's certainly a genuine mahogany species. Even before plantation grown mahogany became available, it's been years since most so-called Honduran mahogany actually came from Honduras. A lot came from the Amazon basin.
Point is, if Gibson is using real mahogany grown on plantations, they can still call it genuine mahogany. The fact that they're not calling it genuine leads me to believe it may be some other species.
Quote from: Pilgrim on July 15, 2014, 04:20:30 PM
Does ANYONE actually respond to terms like "genuine Mahogany" anymore?
It's either mahogany or it's not. That kind of wording was outdated in the 1950's.
I disagree. No one used that term in the 50s. Back then it was called Cuban mahogany or just mahogany. And there was no question that it actually was mahogany. It was only after imports started using other species that you even heard the term genuine. That was to distinguish it from crapwood like lauan, which was being marketed as "Philippine mahogany."
You're right that it's either mahogany or it's not. unfortunately a good bit of what's called mahogany actually isn't.
I put on a belt this evening when I changed after work - and noticed it was labeled "genuine leather." I surrender. :sad:
Quote from: Dave W on July 15, 2014, 05:20:26 PM
... unfortunately a good bit of what's called mahogany actually isn't.
Amen, Dave. Actually most of it, including anything made today with Epiphone stamped on it and any Gibson Thunderbird made after 1979. Gibson knows the difference and is smart enough to call only the real stuff genuine. They called it
Honduras Mahogany in all their 60s catalogs which is what I still call it. 'Honduran' is a new term for me.
It's out there and legal, though expensive. I'll bet all the Hamer clones will be using it. I'm hoarding my small stash for personal use these days.
I've decided to call alder 'American Mahogany'. It's about as similar to the real stuff as African is. ;D
Thanks, Carlo.
As for Honduras vs Honduran, it's six of one half a dozen of the other. LMII (http://www.lmii.com/products/mostly-wood/neck-woods/neck-blanks) calls it Honduran, for example. And to their credit, they also call khaya by its right name instead of calling it African mahogany.
I don't care as long as it sounds similar or better! I like a mahogany tone, but if you are able to achive the same sound with sawdust then that is also ok.
Quote from: uwe on July 15, 2014, 10:58:16 PM
I don't care as long as it sounds similar or better! I like a mahogany tone, but if you are able to achive the same sound with sawdust then that is also ok.
That's fine. But calling other wood that vaguely resembles it 'mahogany' affects the value of the real thing in a negative way.
It's similar to what legally can be called 'beer' in Germany vs the US.
I know and of course you're right. But funnily enough among my wood-wise best sounding basses is an Epi Explorer with a horrible anodyne-looking, dent-prone and suspiciously light (both in weight and color) "wonderwood" that sounds just impeccably responsive (plus you can leave marks in it with your fingernail!). Even my luthier was surprised by it (knowing Epi, they would probably never again be able to source it!).
I remember back in the 70ies when we lived in Zaire, "mahogany" wood (I use the term loosely, ain't no carpenter) was nothing special, it was the ubiquitous run of the mill-wood there, with a plain jane look and regularly painted or tainted over to make it look blacj rather than reddish. I still think of it as a non-descript looking wood, but I like its sonic characteristics. And those are shared by my Epi EB-3 Elitist which was advertised as "African mahogany" - and it does look quite a bit nicer than "genuine mahogany".
And then you have zebra(no) wood, which looks great in kitchens and on guitars, but sounds like (dead) crap.
I didn't intend for this to be a critique of how anything else sounds. Just confirming my suspicions about Gibson's wording and what they really use.
As for Epi, I don't think any "mahogany" guitars from Asia have ever been genuine mahogany. You'd have to buy a vintage US Epi to get that.
Does this look like unfinished Swietenia Macrophylla? That's what I asked for but I'm cool with Kaya too.
(http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o632/4stringer77/Group%20Bass%20Photo/progresspic_zpsc344d925.jpg) (http://s1151.photobucket.com/user/4stringer77/media/Group%20Bass%20Photo/progresspic_zpsc344d925.jpg.html)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTK4mUzZdkc
I wonder what my Greco bird is made out of?
Quote from: Pilgrim on July 15, 2014, 06:38:08 PM
... and noticed it was labeled "genuine leather." I surrender. :sad:
I'm a genuine veggie and Roshina's a genuine vegan... :mrgreen:
What is "naugahide"...? (referenced on a WZ song once)
Quote from: 4stringer77 on July 16, 2014, 11:34:05 AM
Does this look like unfinished Swietenia Macrophylla? That's what I asked for but I'm cool with Kaya too.
(http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o632/4stringer77/Group%20Bass%20Photo/progresspic_zpsc344d925.jpg) (http://s1151.photobucket.com/user/4stringer77/media/Group%20Bass%20Photo/progresspic_zpsc344d925.jpg.html)
Not at all.
Raw it doesn't have a lot of character.
(http://i976.photobucket.com/albums/ae241/cata1d0/01/HondurasRaw_zpsb7c152e3.jpg) (http://s976.photobucket.com/user/cata1d0/media/01/HondurasRaw_zpsb7c152e3.jpg.html)
Finished is another story. Bear in mind this is the body for a $400 retail bass IIRC made in the late 70s, not a primo piece. No grain filler or stain used or needed. Just 2 coats of sealer sanded with 2 of nitro lacquer. Today a blank this size would be at least $160 retail.
(http://i976.photobucket.com/albums/ae241/cata1d0/01/HondurasClear_zpsa52dbd9d.jpg) (http://s976.photobucket.com/user/cata1d0/media/01/HondurasClear_zpsa52dbd9d.jpg.html)
Quote from: Dave W on July 16, 2014, 10:30:13 AM
I didn't intend for this to be a critique of how anything else sounds. Just confirming my suspicions about Gibson's wording and what they really use.
As for Epi, I don't think any "mahogany" guitars from Asia have ever been genuine mahogany. You'd have to buy a vintage US Epi to get that.
It's all part of the "Gibson is more valuable"-mystique. If you believe in that, you probably also believe that Jack Daniels roll their whiskey around in old oak barrels. Why is nobody honest and writes: "
This wood looks like crap and is obtained cheaply by us, but in our experience sounds better than a lot of pricier and more textured woods"?
I've seen "real" barrels in Highland distilleries and I believe it could be shown that defendant has somewhat bought into the "Gibson mystique..." ;)
Quote from: uwe on July 16, 2014, 02:29:35 PM
It's all part of the "Gibson is more valuable"-mystique. If you believe in that, you probably also believe that Jack Daniels roll their whiskey around in old oak barrels. Why is nobody honest and writes: "This wood looks like crap and is obtained cheaply by us, but in our experience sounds better than a lot of pricier and more textured woods"?
I sort of understand what you're saying...
But Jack Daniels is still aged in new charred white oak barrels and filtered though maple charcoal. Can't make barrels out of red oak, it won't hold liquid. Good for burning, though.
And Honduras is generally less figured than it's cheaper competitors. A very high grade is called 'pattern' not because of its high figure but lack of it. So it can be used for making product patterns because of its extreme stability. It's what I remember Gibsons looking like in the 50s and 60s; Les Paul guitar backs and necks and entire EBOs and TBirds. Also lighter weight than the stuff Gibson started using in Les Paul basses and the guitar reissues.
Quote from: Highlander on July 16, 2014, 02:03:46 PM
I'm a genuine veggie and Roshina's a genuine vegan... :mrgreen:
What is "naugahide"...? (referenced on a WZ song once)
The hide of a Nauga, nacherally.
http://www.naugahyde.com/history.html
(http://www.naugahyde.com/images/naugahis1.gif)
Single Malt Scotch please!
I just say no to JD :puke:
Quote from: slinkp on July 16, 2014, 12:20:17 PM
I wonder what my Greco bird is made out of?
Most likely sipo or khaya.
Quote from: uwe on July 16, 2014, 02:29:35 PM
It's all part of the "Gibson is more valuable"-mystique. If you believe in that, you probably also believe that Jack Daniels roll their whiskey around in old oak barrels. Why is nobody honest and writes: "This wood looks like crap and is obtained cheaply by us, but in our experience sounds better than a lot of pricier and more textured woods"?
As Carlo pointed out, the Jack Daniel's aging story is not a myth. But it's not just JD. All bourbons (which JD actually is) have to be aged in new charred barrels, it's part of the federal standard of identity for bourbon.
Anyway, yes, Gibson maintains a mystique even though they buy lumber by the carload or boatload. And you probably know the old story about korina originally being bought as a cheaper substitute for mahogany. But if Gibson isn't using real mahogany 98% of the time now, they need to tell us what it is.
Sorry Dave, Jack Daniel's is not bourbon, it's Tennessee Whiskey. Specific requirements define bourbon and I think the charcoal filtering kicks JD out of the bourbon realm. However, Evan Williams Bourbon tastes a lot like JD, is a lot less costly, and is a great Jack and Coke substitute. Oh, Evan W. is "Kentucky Straight Bourbon Whiskey"
It is charcoal filtered, true, and the folks at JD insist it isn't a bourbon. But it definitely meets the federal standard of identity for straight bourbon whiskey, and it doesn't meet the standard for any other type of whiskey. It's also classified under NAFTA as a straight bourbon whiskey produced in Tennessee.
I just took another look at Ari's LP body. Possibly it's Honduras and the color is due to the lighting and/or camera. Mea Culpa.
Here's a similar example of the camera lying.
(http://i976.photobucket.com/albums/ae241/cata1d0/Siamese%20Birds/P1020452.jpg) (http://s976.photobucket.com/user/cata1d0/media/Siamese%20Birds/P1020452.jpg.html)
Quote from: dadagoboi on July 16, 2014, 02:24:30 PMFinished is another story.
No kidding! I had been wondering if Alembic dyed their mahogany or something, but I guess the color just really comes to life with a finish on it.
Quote from: Dave W on July 17, 2014, 08:22:20 AM
It is charcoal filtered, true, and the folks at JD insist it isn't a bourbon. But it definitely meets the federal standard of identity for straight bourbon whiskey, and it doesn't meet the standard for any other type of whiskey. It's also classified under NAFTA as a straight bourbon whiskey produced in Tennessee.
All true, just happens to be the subject of holy wars in Tennessee. They don't care what them thar feds say. I've read about the begats and the definitions, and it seems like a great case of in-state politicking driven by the commercial whiskey factions. That's certainly not an unusual situation in any state.
Can't say for sure if Ari's bass is genuine mahogany, can't see the grain that clearly, but I've certainly seen it that light before, and I've never seen khaya that light.
Either way, it's got some nice grain for the trans fin that's going on there. Still waiting for it.