Gibson's mahogany

Dave W · July 15, 2014, 10:42:25 AM

I've wondered before why Gibson only uses the word mahogany in its descriptions, rather than calling it genuine mahogany or Honduran mahogany. It would be a marketing advantage over competitors who don't specify a type or who use African mahogany (khaya), which is not a genuine mahogany species.

Last night I went to MF to look at strings and saw a front page blurb for some Gibson limited edition guitars at $1900 and up; there are six of them listed. The description of all these specifies genuine mahogany -- like the "Gibson Flying V History" which is "Built using only Genuine Mahogany..." Yet in looking over the descriptions of all the other guitars and basses at MF or on Gibson's website, I can't find any other reference to genuine mahogany, not even in the Gibson Custom section, not even on the VOS models.

Does this mean Gibson isn't using genuine mahogany on most models? Sure seems like a good possibility.

the mojo hobo · July 15, 2014, 01:42:21 PM

A marketing advantage is probably not worth the hassle of having your supply of lumber confiscated by the government. Honduran mahogany is listed in CITES Appendix II which could make it more difficult to import from it's native location and subject to scrutiny, but the same species (Swietenia macrophylla) is plantation grown in India, Fiji, Bangladesh, and Indonesia.

Pilgrim · July 15, 2014, 04:20:30 PM

Does ANYONE actually respond to terms like "genuine Mahogany" anymore?

It's either mahogany or it's not. That kind of wording was outdated in the 1950's.

Unless it's naugahyde, made from genuine Naugas....

Dave W · July 15, 2014, 05:20:26 PM

Quote from: the mojo hobo on July 15, 2014, 01:42:21 PM
A marketing advantage is probably not worth the hassle of having your supply of lumber confiscated by the government. Honduran mahogany is listed in CITES Appendix II which could make it more difficult to import from it's native location and subject to scrutiny, but the same species (Swietenia macrophylla) is plantation grown in India, Fiji, Bangladesh, and Indonesia.

I agree, but the plantation grown swietenia macrophylla is still often called Honduran, and in any case it's certainly a genuine mahogany species. Even before plantation grown mahogany became available, it's been years since most so-called Honduran mahogany actually came from Honduras. A lot came from the Amazon basin.

Point is, if Gibson is using real mahogany grown on plantations, they can still call it genuine mahogany. The fact that they're not calling it genuine leads me to believe it may be some other species.

Quote from: Pilgrim on July 15, 2014, 04:20:30 PM
Does ANYONE actually respond to terms like "genuine Mahogany" anymore?

It's either mahogany or it's not. That kind of wording was outdated in the 1950's.

I disagree. No one used that term in the 50s. Back then it was called Cuban mahogany or just mahogany. And there was no question that it actually was mahogany. It was only after imports started using other species that you even heard the term genuine. That was to distinguish it from crapwood like lauan, which was being marketed as "Philippine mahogany."

You're right that it's either mahogany or it's not. unfortunately a good bit of what's called mahogany actually isn't.

Pilgrim · July 15, 2014, 06:38:08 PM

I put on a belt this evening when I changed after work - and noticed it was labeled "genuine leather." I surrender.

dadagoboi · July 15, 2014, 06:40:16 PM

Quote from: Dave W on July 15, 2014, 05:20:26 PM
... unfortunately a good bit of what's called mahogany actually isn't.

Amen, Dave. Actually most of it, including anything made today with Epiphone stamped on it and any Gibson Thunderbird made after 1979. Gibson knows the difference and is smart enough to call only the real stuff genuine. They called it Honduras Mahogany in all their 60s catalogs which is what I still call it. 'Honduran' is a new term for me.

It's out there and legal, though expensive. I'll bet all the Hamer clones will be using it. I'm hoarding my small stash for personal use these days.

I've decided to call alder 'American Mahogany'. It's about as similar to the real stuff as African is.

Dave W · July 15, 2014, 09:46:52 PM

Thanks, Carlo.

As for Honduras vs Honduran, it's six of one half a dozen of the other. LMII calls it Honduran, for example. And to their credit, they also call khaya by its right name instead of calling it African mahogany.

uwe · July 15, 2014, 10:58:16 PM

I don't care as long as it sounds similar or better! I like a mahogany tone, but if you are able to achive the same sound with sawdust then that is also ok.

dadagoboi · July 16, 2014, 05:25:42 AM

Quote from: uwe on July 15, 2014, 10:58:16 PM
I don't care as long as it sounds similar or better! I like a mahogany tone, but if you are able to achive the same sound with sawdust then that is also ok.

That's fine. But calling other wood that vaguely resembles it 'mahogany' affects the value of the real thing in a negative way.

It's similar to what legally can be called 'beer' in Germany vs the US.

uwe · July 16, 2014, 08:20:16 AM

I know and of course you're right. But funnily enough among my wood-wise best sounding basses is an Epi Explorer with a horrible anodyne-looking, dent-prone and suspiciously light (both in weight and color) "wonderwood" that sounds just impeccably responsive (plus you can leave marks in it with your fingernail!). Even my luthier was surprised by it (knowing Epi, they would probably never again be able to source it!).

I remember back in the 70ies when we lived in Zaire, "mahogany" wood (I use the term loosely, ain't no carpenter) was nothing special, it was the ubiquitous run of the mill-wood there, with a plain jane look and regularly painted or tainted over to make it look blacj rather than reddish. I still think of it as a non-descript looking wood, but I like its sonic characteristics. And those are shared by my Epi EB-3 Elitist which was advertised as "African mahogany" - and it does look quite a bit nicer than "genuine mahogany".

And then you have zebra(no) wood, which looks great in kitchens and on guitars, but sounds like (dead) crap.

Dave W · July 16, 2014, 10:30:13 AM

I didn't intend for this to be a critique of how anything else sounds. Just confirming my suspicions about Gibson's wording and what they really use.

As for Epi, I don't think any "mahogany" guitars from Asia have ever been genuine mahogany. You'd have to buy a vintage US Epi to get that.

4stringer77 · July 16, 2014, 11:34:05 AM

Does this look like unfinished Swietenia Macrophylla? That's what I asked for but I'm cool with Kaya too.

slinkp · July 16, 2014, 12:20:17 PM

I wonder what my Greco bird is made out of?

Highlander · July 16, 2014, 02:03:46 PM

Quote from: Pilgrim on July 15, 2014, 06:38:08 PM
... and noticed it was labeled "genuine leather." I surrender.

I'm a genuine veggie and Roshina's a genuine vegan...

What is "naugahide"...? (referenced on a WZ song once)

dadagoboi · July 16, 2014, 02:24:30 PM

Quote from: 4stringer77 on July 16, 2014, 11:34:05 AM
Does this look like unfinished Swietenia Macrophylla? That's what I asked for but I'm cool with Kaya too.

Not at all.
Raw it doesn't have a lot of character.

Finished is another story. Bear in mind this is the body for a $400 retail bass IIRC made in the late 70s, not a primo piece. No grain filler or stain used or needed. Just 2 coats of sealer sanded with 2 of nitro lacquer. Today a blank this size would be at least $160 retail.