I thought I should just start this thread with the required WWII digression instead of putting an inconveniently relevant topic up first. Anyone know about the Hawker Hurricane?
http://www.hagerty.com/classic-car-articles-resources/HowTo/Valuation-Blog/All-articles/2012/11/12/Bulletproof-provenance-1942-Hawker-Hurricane-Mk-Iia?utm_source=ExactTarget&utm_medium=email&utm_term=&utm_content=&utm_campaign=Hagerty%20Weekly%20News%2011-19-2012
(http://www.hagerty.com/classic-car-articles-resources/HowTo/Valuation-Blog/All-articles/2012/11/12/~/media/Images/Articles/February2012/November%202012%20Hurricane.ashx?thn=0&w=211)
Well I know what most folks do I guess, I read many a book on the subject and built models of it many times. One of my favorite aircraft, Reliable, sturdy. Not as fast as the Spit or as graceful but certainly a capable aircraft and beautiful in it's own way. A transitional aircraft in construction and virtually obsolete at the start of the war. It performed many duties and was easy to modify for various armament configurations. If I had 3 million I'd be all over that !
It's amazing what you can do with plywood and dope!
Very cool, it's not a Spit so I like it, kinda the Gibson bass of fighters ;)
Quote from: Pilgrim on November 20, 2012, 06:26:34 AM
I thought I should just start this thread with the required WWII digression instead of putting an inconveniently relevant topic up first.
In that case, to be totally accurate to the way most threads go here, you should add "with anal sex references" to the thread title :-)
You guys! ;)
Quote from: godofthunder on November 20, 2012, 09:20:59 AM
It performed many duties and was easy to modify for various armament configurations. If I had 3 million I'd be all over that !
Who you gonna call? TankBusters!
Quote from: TBird1958 on November 20, 2012, 10:48:05 AM
It's amazing what you can do with plywood and dope!
Like make a longer lasting spliff?
Is "spliff" what I *think* it is? ;)
[stirring jingoistice wartime music]Unsung hero of BOB, as there were a darn site more of them involved than the Spitfire but the Spit got all the glory from a laypersons perspective - powered by a Rolls Royce Merlin - not to many now left flying...
Douglas (reach for the sky) Bader was a Hurricane pilot during BOB...
More than half the aircraft shot down during BOB were claimed by Hurricanes...
Not bad for an old superceded aeroplane, imho...[/stirring jingoistice wartime music]
I read Reach For The Sky the first time in 8th grade I think that was in '72. It has been in my reading pile ever since.
Quote from: HERBIE on November 20, 2012, 05:10:59 PM
[stirring jingoistice wartime music]Unsung hero of BOB, as there were a darn site more of them involved than the Spitfire but the Spit got all the glory from a laypersons perspective - powered by a Rolls Royce Merlin - not to many now left flying...
Douglas (reach for the sky) Bader was a Hurricane pilot during BOB...
More than half the aircraft shot down during BOB were claimed by Hurricanes...
Not bad for an old superceded aeroplane, imho...[/stirring jingoistice wartime music]
Quote from: godofthunder on November 20, 2012, 07:47:22 PM
I read Reach For The Sky the first time in 8th grade I think that was in '72. It has been in my reading pile ever since.
If ever you get chance to see Michael Parkinson (UK chat show) interview Bader take it! It's excellent, similar vocabulary to Terry-Thomas. "Rotters" & "Prangs" etc. It's not on YT just now, but it was before, maybe the BBC had it taken down, could only find this....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3mdMlC7BAA
The Hurricane was sturdy and its 2x4 Browning machine gun firepower nicely concentrated for shooting down a lumbering Heinkel or Dornier, Stuka or Me 110 (which is why Bader liked it over the Spit with its less concentrated Browning fire power),
"Like all pilots who flew and fought in the Hurricane, I grew to love it. It was strong, highly maneuverable, could turn inside the Spitfire and of course the Me 109. Best of all, it was a marvellous gun platform. The sloping nose gave you a splendid forward view, while the eight guns were set in blocks of four in each wing, close to the fuselage. The aeroplane remained rock steady when you fired. Unlike the Spitfire with its lovely elliptical wing which sloped towards the tip, the Hurricane wing was thicker and straight. The Spitfire was less stead when the guns were firing because, I have always thought, they were spread further along the wing, and the recoil effect was noticeable."
but it was no match against an Me 109 E, much less the F model.
The vast majority of German airplanes downed in the Battle of Britain were non-Me 109s. In fact, fewer single seat German fighters were shot down (or ran out of gas) in the Battle of Britain than RAF single seat fighters. I have doubts whether Hurricanes shot down Me-109s in any significant quantity, but that was not their job, they were there to shoot down bombers and that they did well. If no Me-109s were around that is.
Bader was a skilled pilot and a courageous man and maybe he did have a chance in a fight with a fresh Me-109 pilot in 1940, but between two equally skilled and experienced pilots, the Hurricane had no chance against an Me-109. The Luftwaffe fighter pilots didn't take the Hurricane serious as an opponent and Hurricane losses in North Africa against Luftwaffe fighters were as bad as P-40 losses.
The Battlle of Britain might have been won by the RAF even without the Spitfire, but it would have been a lot more arduous.
This makes for interesting reading, but should be read with a pinch of salt given that pilots had a natural inclination to favor their own aircraft types:
http://kurfurst.org/Tactical_trials/109E_vergleich110SpitHurCurtiss/109E_vergleichsflg_Aug1940.html
Reminds me of that scene in "Battle of Britain" when Keith Parks climbs out of his personal Hurricane in his white flying suit.......I always liked Hurris better than Spits.
As for liking one over the other it is purely a academic/romanticized study. Of course I have never flow either and never will. The Hurricane appeals to me in both the ascetic and it's ability to perform even though much better aircraft were available. The men who flew them were unbelievably brave. Give me a P-47D any day of the week.
Yup! IIRC the variable pitch prop made a huge difference in it's peformance, especially climb and turn. But like many U.S. aircraft it could come home missing a lot of parts, an endearing quality when you're over enema territory.
The Pratt and Whitney R2800 being air cooled could take a large amount of damage and still bring pilot and plane home. Once the P-47 was fitted with the wide blade prop the planes performance especially in climb rate improved dramatically.
Quote from: godofthunder on November 21, 2012, 01:12:28 PM
As for liking one over the other it is purely a academic/romanticized study. Of course I have never flow either and never will. The Hurricane appeals to me in both the ascetic and it's ability to perform even though much better aircraft were available. The men who flew them were unbelievably brave. Give me a P-47D any day of the week.
Kind of like the Wildcat. Not really a match for a Zero purely performancewise, but it was a workhorse and before the arrival of Hellcat and Corsair (not really suited for carrier work, most of them flew from island strips) there was no alternative.
Exactley! The Wildcat at the time was the only available plane...................well there was the Brewster Buffalo. On second thought lets not talk about that one. :-[
Just to move to a different theatre of operations.........................
Any of you ever read Samurai
(http://www.warbirdforum.com/samurai.jpg)
...by Japan's #1 fighter ace who survived the war, Saburo Sakai?
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/19/Saburo_Sakai_flightgear.jpg/140px-Saburo_Sakai_flightgear.jpg)
I read it in high school and still have that book. What a remarkable man and fantastic pilot. His description of he dogfight which resulted in his being badly wounded and losing the sight in one eye is one of the most spellbinding I have ever read.
Funny the Brits and Newzelanders cleared the F4U for carrier duty right away. Sure the hose nose was a handful but I have always found it interesting that both countries were very happy to have the plane.
Yep read it a couple of times! Always amazed me he could land on carrier with one eye and no depth perception.
Quote from: Pilgrim on November 21, 2012, 01:38:23 PM
Just to move to a different theatre of operations.........................
Any of you ever read Samurai
(http://www.warbirdforum.com/samurai.jpg)
...by Japan's #1 fighter ace who survived the war, Saburo Sakai?
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/19/Saburo_Sakai_flightgear.jpg/140px-Saburo_Sakai_flightgear.jpg)
I read it in high school and still have that book. What a remarkable man and fantastic pilot. His description of he dogfight which resulted in his being badly wounded and losing the sight in one eye is one of the most spellbinding I have ever read.
Yes, to Samurai, several times.
Quote from: godofthunder on November 21, 2012, 01:40:08 PM
Funny the Brits and Newzelanders cleared the F4U for carrier duty right away. Sure the hose nose was a handful but I have always found it interesting that both countries were very happy to have the plane.
Well, it
was a great plane, just not a great carrier plane (not that the Brits and Kiwis would have really known, they didn't have your carrier experience and expertise), but that didn't play much of a role once you were successfully island hopping and the Hellcat as the new carrier plane was superior enough to the Zero.
In keeping with the topic of WWII aircraft and rectal references, if there are any forum members from countries where cricket is popular, you may have heard of Keith Miller - Australian cricket legend and WWII air force pilot ... http://www.awm.gov.au/exhibitions/fiftyaustralians/32.asp
Michael Parkinson famously interviewed him on TV once and asked Miller about the pressure of international cricket matches. Miller's reply was simply "Pressure is a Messerschmitt up your arse"
Yes I would think anything after that would be child's play. Thanks for posting that Mark, I had never heard of the "Nugget" quite a story, one of so many.
Quote from: Aussie Mark on November 21, 2012, 03:55:09 PM
In keeping with the topic of WWII aircraft and rectal references, if there are any forum members from countries where cricket is popular, you may have heard of Keith Miller - Australian cricket legend and WWII air force pilot ... http://www.awm.gov.au/exhibitions/fiftyaustralians/32.asp
Michael Parkinson famously interviewed him on TV once and asked Miller about the pressure of international cricket matches. Miller's reply was simply "Pressure is a Messerschmitt up your arse"
Quote from: godofthunder on November 21, 2012, 09:05:47 PM
Thanks for posting that Mark, I had never heard of the "Nugget" quite a story, one of so many.
You're welcome. Miller was the closest thing to a rock star that cricket had in the 1940s and 1950s - he was rumoured to have nailed Princess Margaret at one point too (just like Mick Jagger)
QuoteThe date: September 19, 1948. The place: the lawns of Balmoral Castle, Scotland. The occasion: an informal farewell party given by King George VI and the Putting on the style: Princess Margaret with Keith Miller at Balmoral in 1948 Queen for Don Bradman and his invincible Australian cricket team, unbeaten through their long tour of England.
The man strolling at the shoulder of Princess Margaret, then 19, is Keith Miller, then 27, a wartime Australian Air Force night-fighter pilot who had survived in combat over Europe longer than the average three-week life-span accorded most of his colleagues.
He once walked away from a terrible crash and thereafter batted and bowled fast for Australia with devastating panache.
Five years later, Miller was back in England on his last cricket tour overseas. One day, an official with the Australian team announced pompously: 'I shan't be joining you for dinner tonight. I've been invited to Buckingham Palace.' 'As a matter of fact,' murmured Miller, 'So have I. But I shan't be going through the same door as you.' Don't ask me. I don't know the answer. I just love this picture of two people in the bloom of youth.
At leat he stayed within the Commonwealth then.
Here's my Thanksgiving contribution.............
Malcolm Hood P-51, complete with Invasion Stripes!
Cheers :)
(http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd306/veronicasteed/1353619953.jpg)
Quote from: uwe on November 21, 2012, 02:13:11 PMnot that the Brits and Kiwis would have really known
True, they didn't use them all that much - but when they did...................
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-AOmbEyJX-A0/Td705fDLO4I/AAAAAAAABhg/46eV6d4Edj4/s1600/arkroyal.jpg)
Fawlty Rudders: Don't mention ze Bismarck!!! :mrgreen:
The irony is: The Swordfish, ancient as it was, could fly so low above sea level, yet remain stable, I doub't if any other, more modern torpedo bomber of the time could have been equally successful. The Bismarck's ant-aircraft guns couldn't go low enough for the lumbering Swordfish which, flying so slow, had all the time in the world to take aim, undisturbed by German fire.
When the Bismarck was being built - it devoured huge capacities, several armies could have been fully equipped with the resources and money that went into it and its sistership Tirpitz -, ze Führer visited the docks. Never much of a navy man, he looked at the huge rudder system of the Bismarck and frowned: "What happens if this is damaged, can the ship still steer?" He never got an answer. Well, in 1940 he did.
Quote from: TBird1958 on November 22, 2012, 02:36:35 PM
Here's my Thanksgiving contribution.............
Malcolm Hood P-51, complete with Invasion Stripes!
Cheers :)
A nice Washington wine, and themed appropriately for the thread!! You rock!
Quote from: uwe on November 22, 2012, 04:39:35 PMThe Bismarck's ant-aircraft guns couldn't go low enough for the lumbering Swordfish which, flying so slow, had all the time in the world to take aim, undisturbed by German fire.
I read that of the ones that did hit them the majority just passed through the 'plane. But it could have been a boys war comic I read it in, it was a long time ago.
IIRC it was also a British navy attack on the Italian fleet/.harbour which inspired the attack on Pearl.
And of course we've all heard of HMS Argus.
I'm sure there was some fire, the Bismarck knew the danger it was in, but not with anti-aircraft guns.