The Last Bass Outpost

This thread is not about the Obama administration and how the battle of the Alamo was all in vain now that a bunch of Spics determines your President (and doesn't vote for the other one whose ancestors fled the USA for Mexico for, errrm, marital reasons, life is all about irony sometimes!). I have long learned that this forum of apparently well-behaved and considerate mostly middle-aged white men turns into ragingly mad throngs of partisan zombies when we leave the issue of, say, string gauges for the irrelevance of a US Election. Sigh.

This thread is about the new Kiss remix release of their Destroyer (now called Destroyer [Resurrected]) album (often described by me as "one of the finest Bob Ezrin solo albums with all four members of Kiss guesting"!).


(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_5hIvOoTJzH8/SMilFnqFJWI/AAAAAAAABvI/az0CXSNsc4A/s400/Kiss-Destroyer(front).jpg)


If that kid who loved Destroyer initially when it came out is still somewhere in you (a friend from Sweden sent me a tape of it, he didn't like it and I wasn't expecting much from Dressed to Kill and the Alive album, Kiss seemed a heavy-handed affair to me, but when I heard that larger than life arrangement of Detroit Rick City I was in Alice Cooperish bliss, that is where I knew Ezrin's production handwriting from at the time), GO ORDER/BUY THAT RELEASE NOW. You will be in for a treat.

Ezrin has remixed and remastered it  himself and the result is sonically stellar. I find Destroyer to be head and shoulders over any other Kiss album in rank, but even in the remaster version a decade ago it still sounded a bit indirect (Ezrin's Spector influence) and weakish. That is all gone now:

- Criss' bass drum (yes, he played one) pummels and thuds through the album, his drums are louder and "nearer" (bye bye Phil Spector influence).

- Simmons' bass has been brought out to a degree that you can actually hear his pick sometimes and one some tracks even has mudbuckerish oomph. God of Thunder (the track) is now dominated by a threatening bass lava sound and the whole album is a pleasure for spotting nuances in Simmons' bass playing. (That must be a real first-timer: "Simmons" and "nuance" in one sentence and not juxtaposed either! :mrgreen:)

- Yes, there is an acoustic guitar on Beth and now you can actually hear it (plus the bow attack of the orchestra's stringed instruments). Would you believe that Beth can sound powerful with all its orchestral might?

- The amount of new detail (sound effects, harmony guitars, acoustic guitars and harmony vocals, little bass runs, in places also some shaky timing!) is amazing.

Classic Rock (the Brit mag) opined that the sound of the new remix is "squeaky-clean", baloney, I have no idea what they were listening to or whether they are deaf, this now sounds like Kiss playing a faithful Destroyer version in your living room, it's that vibrant. Likewise, they have complained that the remaster painfully shows Simmons' limitations as a singer. Crap, Simmons' limitations as a singer are blatantly obvious any which way you produce the guy but I still prefer his voice to Paul's all too often histrionic approach.

Buy the CD. Now. I know Gene Simmons doesn't need the money. Or that he announced to vote for Mitt this time when he allegedly voted for Obama last time thus distorting the overall Jewish vote. This is Destroyer like it should have sounded all along. A (hard) rock classic to this day. 100% Blackmore-free too. (Though there is a slight connection with Ezrin producing the new DP album due for early next year!  :mrgreen:)

Why couldn't he let this album fade out into a muddy memory?

Why does an album that is not that great to begin with need to be "resurrected"? 
- no matter how you slice Olive Loaf, it's still Olive Loaf.

Quote from: ack1961 on November 07, 2012, 10:43:51 AM
Why couldn't he let this album fade out into a muddy memory?

Why does an album that is not that great to begin with need to be "resurrected"?  
- no matter how you slice Olive Loaf, it's still Olive Loaf.

3 words....... and Kiss' best song.


Detroit Rock City.



I recall Rolling Stone's review on it when new - Actually they complained that Bob Ezrin kept finding ways to get his children onto the albums he was producing -  FWIW I didn't find his work with Alice Cooper on "Welcome to my Nightmare" to anything to write home about. Honestly, "Billion Dollar Babies" was his high point..........shoulda tacked it up after that.

Ezrin is a producer in an old-fashioned, all encompassing sense, not just an engineer. His style of grand production might not be for everyone but being the guy who let the Alice Cooper Band leave their early garage sound behind, recording Pink Floyd's most commercially successful album (when neither the subject matter nor the music were very commercial), putting Peter Gabriel on the map with his debut and last but not least Destroyer speak for themselves.

He also has a knack for arranging things, School's Out, Another Brick in the Wall, Solsbury Hill and Detroit Rock City are all arrangement-wise creatures of his design. And I believe that the arrangement on all four was crucial to their success. I've heard Waters' original demos to ABITW, Ezrin's motownish/funkish arrangement made all the difference, the original sounds like a bluesrock jam in contrast. And what would DRC be if Ezrin had not insisted that Gene learns that - very unusual for a rock shuffle - Stax bass run? The twin guitar harmony part in the middle is also his idea. Solsbury Hill was just a jam, he insisted that it makes the album. And thanks to his production, School's Out (the single) cost more to make than entire Slade albums of the time.

In the sense of "grand production", he is my favorite producer. I'm itching to hear what he will do to Purple who always shunned producers (Derek Lawrence on their first three albums maybe excepted) and preferred the sound engineer type as producers (both Martin Birch and Roger Glover were just that, great sound engineers, yes, but not producers as Bob Ezrin is one).

I know that Ezrin's productions are often divisive - I remember Lee Aaron (anybody remember her as well?) in a blind fold test ranting about a Hanoi Rocks tune: "Is that a Bob Ezrin production? (And it was.) Sounds like it. Just so horrible! No one deserves to sound like that anymore today, guitars billowing everywhere ...", but I believe all of Ezrin's productions have aged better than Ms Aaron's turnout in the 80ies.

Hotter than hell was produced like crap but I like the tunes better. Btw Uwe, you may not come across too many latinos over there in Allemania but spic is a pretty derogatory term. I just hope nobody visiting or any members were offended.

Growing up in Texas most of my life I've heard worse.  When I attended college in North Carolina back in the late 70's/early 80's they thought I was an "Injun".  :)

I was 14 when Destroyer came out.  I loved every track on that record.  I'll have to buy the new version then Uwe.

Quote from: Hörnisse on November 07, 2012, 01:35:28 PM
Growing up in Texas most of my life I've heard worse.  When I attended college in North Carolina back in the late 70's/early 80's they thought I was an "Injun".  :)

I was 14 when Destroyer came out.  I loved every track on that record.  I'll have to buy the new version then Uwe.

c'mon...every track?!  Isn't "Beth" on that album?

My favorite song on the LP is "Great Expetcations".  Detroit Rock City just flat out rocks.  Ezrin wanted Gene to play a riff similar to Curtis Mayfield's "Freddie's Dead" line.  I'm 51 now and still listen to the record.  Still have my original Blue label Casablanca version.

I loved this album when it came out (I was 12 I think?) and still love it today (Beth...meh). I will have to pick this one up. I rarely listen to KISS anymore, but I'm interested in this.

OK, what the hell - I'm paying to download the Resurrected album (my 1st Kiss album) right now - except for "Beth".  I will never pay for that POS although I find it comical that a guy dressed like a kitty cat sings it.

Do I send the bill to Germany if it still sucks?

Quote from: Hörnisse on November 07, 2012, 01:35:28 PM
Growing up in Texas most of my life I've heard worse.  When I attended college in North Carolina back in the late 70's/early 80's they thought I was an "Injun".  :)

I was 14 when Destroyer came out.  I loved every track on that record.  I'll have to buy the new version then Uwe.

So we're using Texas and North Carolina as the norm of decent taste?  Might as well use Nazi Germany...and what exactly is worse than Spic? Nigger? Kike? Democrat? Kraut Asshole?

Quote from: dadagoboi on November 07, 2012, 02:56:28 PM
So we're using Texas and North Carolina as the norm of decent taste?  Might as well use Nazi Germany...and what exactly is worse than Spic? Nigger? Kike? Democrat? Kraut Asshole?

So, you just made North Carolina & Texas equivalant to Nazi Germany...I've lived in both states and I'm not seeing the correlation.
BTW, you can't say "democrat" here - this is supposed to be a family friendly forum.

not gonna start buying their stuff now.,  never did anything for me.

+1

Ahh '76 and I remember there first gigs here supporting that LP... ;D

OK.  I had a listen to "new and improved...".  Nope.  Still brutal, sappy, schmutz...
However, the schmutz is clearer now.

Quote from: HERBIE on November 07, 2012, 04:18:21 PM
Ahh '76 and I remember there first gigs here supporting that LP... ;D

While not my favorite Kiss album, Destroyer has a special place in my heart because of that tour. Roosevelt Stadium, Jersey City, NJ. Kiss, J. Geils Band, Point Blank and Bob Seger. The only time they ever played "Flaming Youth" live.

BTW, "Resurrected" is everything Uwe says, but if you're not a Kiss fan, it won't blow your skirt up. Ezrin mentions in the liner notes that they fixed one line in a song lyric but won't elaborate. Anybody?

Quote from: dadagoboi on November 07, 2012, 02:56:28 PM
So we're using Texas and North Carolina as the norm of decent taste?  Might as well use Nazi Germany...and what exactly is worse than Spic? Nigger? Kike? Democrat? Kraut Asshole?

How about beaner or wetback?  I take it you are not hispanic?  

 :rolleyes: I should have used quotation marks, I meant the term Spic as irony. Just as I use the terms Jap, Wop, Kraut, Polack, Yank, Chink or whatever in irony. Most of you know my postings for years now, love for WW II trivia aside I am the worst of all things: A left leaning liberal who believes in higher taxes for those who can afford it, government healthcare, free schools and universities, a strong compassionate state  for the weak, Keynes incentives for the economy and even affirmative action for minorities such as "binders full of wimmin". I see capitalism aa a big bad wolf, highly effective in survival, but it needs to be tamed down to being a shepherd dog good for us all. Karl Rove has nightmares about people like me and probably wonders whether the atomic bomb should have been used on Germany in 45 after all to cut the genetic trail that led to me short.

To quote Tom Petty in a letter to NME when they attacked him for using the word "nigger" on his debut album: I ain't no racist, I don't even drive.

And to top it all off: I loved Beth the first time I heard it and still do. You can be mildly socialist and still be a whimp, no issue! Whenever that big fat orchestra part comes in I get goosebumps - of the good kind.

Quote from: ack1961 on November 07, 2012, 05:13:23 PM
OK.  I had a listen to "new and improved...".  Nope.  Still brutal, sappy, schmutz...
However, the schmutz is clearer now.

Well, at least you tried! That in itself is commendable. I herewith hold you harmless from the ill economic effects of your hasty purchase. Send me your paypal account email address and the amount and I'll reduce the US deficit somewhat.

Gene Simmons will love me for this!

Quote from: uwe on November 07, 2012, 05:28:05 PM


And to top it all off: I loved Beth the first time I heard it and still do. You can be mildly socialist and still be a whimp, no issue! Whenever that big fat orchestra part comes in I get goosebumps - of the good kind.

I wasn't offended at all Uwe.  I've known you for years.  And I too still get goosebumps when hearing Beth.  I remember one of my first slow dances at age 15 to that song.  Simmons tone on DRC still gets me.  Wonder what bass he was using on that track?

Could be a Ripper or Grabber, but Gene sounds kind of rough on all basses. Where the hell is George Carlston when you need him? He's the resident Kiss Army grunt here and should be done with election woundlicking by now and contribute something enlightening here.

I just bought the CD on Ebay.  I still like listening to music through vintage Bose 601's.   8)

Quote from: uwe on November 07, 2012, 05:43:44 PM
Could be a Ripper or Grabber, but Gene sounds kind of rough on all basses. Where the hell is George Carlston when you need him? He's the resident Kiss Army grunt here and should be done with election woundlicking by now and contribute something enlightening here.

As always Herr Moderator - You give me smile  ;)

I'm sure our good George will be along soon, here in Washington State we've legalized pot and Gay marriage......... We're very European here  :) 

Just as a point of conversation - rumor has had it for years that on Rock And Roll Over he used a Rick. It doesn't sound Gibsonian to me, but maybe that's just the power of suggestion.

I don't have anything to add about Kiss or their bassist Chaim Weitz, I just wanted to say it's good to know Uwe isn't a raging racist.

Quote from: 4stringer77 on November 07, 2012, 07:22:27 PM
I don't have anything to add about Kiss or their bassist Chaim Weitz, I just wanted to say it's good to know Uwe isn't a raging racist.

Nope, just a socialist barrister - nothing wrong with that :rolleyes: :P :

I hear tell he has a Che' poster and everything  ;)

LBO is great.

KISS nerds can read more here:

http://www.kissfaq.com/forum11/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=74766

I like some of the new version but the editing screw up at the beginning of Flaming Youth ruins it for me. I also dislike the extra vocal stuff and the screeching sound that comes up in Detroit Rock City. Some of that was already there by the time they did Double Platinum (and was obviously in the 16 track masters that Ezrin used here), but they weren't on the original Destroyer mix, so DRC isn't an improvement in my book. Nice for the collection, but falls short as a replacement for the original.

Oh man, that was somber. Still woundlicking then. Talk about adding insult to injury: first the cock up with Flaming Youth and then the Election outcome. ; - )

Much as I liked it from the start, I do not see the original as a temple museum in which nothing may be moved (similar discussions were held in DP circles with the 1997 Roger Glover remixes of Machine Head which I really liked). All the stuff that is "new" on the Resurrected version was recorded at the time and either buried in the mix or initially not used. Only some of the noises had to be recreated because they lost those.

For me the standout trait of Resurrected is the vibrant immediacy and overall crispness coupled with the fact that Simmons and Criss can be heard more prominently, the old mix was too light on de riddem seckshün and both deserve to be heard because Simmons is a better bassist than most people give him credit for and Criss has great swing and feel though he probably knows less chops than Ringo.

The only Kiss I own now is "Alive II" on vinyl. I was given it as compensation by a mate who had had some of my borrowed vinyl nicked at a party. I played it so much that I swear half-way thru "Shock Me" I can hear my Dad shouting "TURN IT DOWN!" - maybe his voice was so loud that he reverse cut it into the vinyl!  :-\
From hearing the 4th side I'm guessing a live situation was their element, like many classic bands. Awesome stage show, great theatrics, but Gene's "solo" could do with some work.
I'd love to try out a "Punisher", but never even seen one in the UK.

Further to my "6 Steps Removed" theory (elsewhere on this forum) "Kiss Alive" was named in tribute to "Slade Alive" as was "Rock N Roll All Nite" to Slade's mis-spelling of song titles....... "Without Slade there'd be no Kiss" according to Gene & Paul.

Thanks for the Kiss Army link, George, very interesting, especially this part of the Ezrin interview:


"KF: Speaking of which, Eddie Kramer, who would work with the band on the next two studio albums, "Rock And Roll Over" and "Love Gun," once said that, and I'm paraphrasing, "'Destroyer's a good record for a couple of tracks, but it really didn't sound like KISS."

Bob, what do you think of KISS' work with Eddie Kramer and was it more KISS sounding?

BE: Well, I think over the years what KISS have proven is that there's no such thing as "KISS sounding." They're an incredibly versatile group. There is a KISS attitude and a KISS style of lyric writing since there are characters [in the band].

But musically, they experimented more than of ton of other groups. So I think, at the time, Eddie was saying what some of the KISS fans were thinking, which was, "This isn't KISS." When in actuality the definition of the evolution of KISS went from being sort of a one-trick pony into actually being who they were. These guys were heavily influenced by the Beatles and other bands of the '60s. Their tastes were fairly wide-ranging. The kind of stuff that we wrote [on "Destroyer"] went all the way from pop to R&B. They just couldn't find a way to make it work in the context of a KISS album until we got to "Destroyer." And I think "Destroyer" holds up. I think it plays like a work of theater. You can imagine these costumed stage "monsters" prancing around and singing all this stuff. Even the softer stuff.

So I disagree with Eddie's characterization. But I wonder what he would say today."

My feelings exactly - I was sooooo disappointed when I heard Rock'n'Roll Over (dumb title too), it was retrogressive, sounded worse than Dressed to Kill in my ears. Destroyer was Kiss most successful album in Germany to date then so the move to Eddie Kramer kind of left you dumbfounded. But then I'm weird in that I tend to like the more polished sounding Kiss albums: Dressed to Kill, Destroyer, Dynasty (worth having for "Sure know something" alone), The Elder (yes, I like The Elder!), Crazy Nights (with the best Slade song on it Slade didn't write), Revenge and even Psycho Circus (the title track is a killer).

Kiss never made a secret of their admiration of Slade's music and their stage act. Stanley even copies Holder's habit of making announcements and talking with the audience in his singing voice (something Robert Plant or Ian Gillan never do) which I always deem a little artificial. The NME once gave a boisterous review of a Slade gig (after their return from the US post-punk) which concluded "they play the songs that Kiss crave for to accompany their visual act".

Quote from: 4stringer77 on November 07, 2012, 07:22:27 PM
I don't have anything to add about Kiss or their bassist Chaim Weitz, I just wanted to say it's good to know Uwe isn't a raging racist.

Quote from: Lightyear on November 07, 2012, 07:57:00 PM
Nope, just a socialist barrister - nothing wrong with that :rolleyes: :P :

I hear tell he has a Che' poster and everything  ;)

Danke schön, both of you. Indeed I have a pic of Che framed in my office (which makes my conservative partners always a tad bit uneasy), but he's more a pop icon to me than a political role model. Would be interesting though if he still lived today to hear what he would say.

Speaking of Chaim Witz aka Eugene Klein aka Gene $immon$: As a son of a teenage Auschwitz survivor Chaim has never been anything but courteous in Germany. When Kiss was catching flak - pun not intended - for using the SS runes in their logo (they have a different logo for German tours where the SS looks like a reversed ZZ)

(http://www.kissfanclub.de/kiss-tickets-exvvk-fanticket.jpg)

and German reporters questioned him about it, it would have been easy for him to snap: "Hey, your parents and grandparents were wearing the SS uniform and tried to gas my mother, now go and play with your guilt and your model swastika!", but he never did, going out of his way to be friendly.  Instead there have always been nice comments about the German fan base which should probably be called KISS WEHRMACHT or something.  :mrgreen: Other Jewish artists were a lot less forgiving: Paul Simon could not bring it over himself to tour Germany until the late eighties I believe and I perfectly understand that.

Up until the comments about Rock and Roll Over (my fav), I pretty much agree with everything Uwe has said here. I've had Resurrected since it came out, and I think it sounds great! The liner notes are especially interesting, giving insight to the fact that there wasn't a WHOLE lot Ezrin could do to it, with drums and guitars already sub-mixed to stereo tracks, effects having been printed to tape, etc. The dynamics and clarity (bye bye Phil Spector indeed!) make it a much better listen than the original. Most of the songs on Destroyer are great, though I NEVER cared for Great Ex. or Beth. The production always bothered me though, as I always wanted to hear them playing live. Now, drums sound better, bass sounds better, the upright bass on Beth sounds killer, etc. etc.

And my first concert - KISS, BOC, Johnny and Edgar Winter, Bob Segar.... August 29, 1976. Tickets were EIGHT dollars!

Rock'n"Roll Over has good songs, Hard Luck Woman, even if a Faces/Rod Stewart pastiche, is one of the best Paul Stanley songs ever. But in contrast to the sleek and elegant Destroyer sound, I found the Eddie Kramer production on it abrasive. But I'm no fan of Eddie Kramer's production style, period.

I always liked Rock & Roll Over for it's energy and more raw sound. Haven't heard it in a while so I don't know how it has held up.

You should like Sonic Boom and the new one (Monster) then - they both consciously emulate the Rock'n'Roll Over sound.

Introducing the cowbell, harmony vocals and Gene Simmons melodic fills:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abC5JTYkrHU&feature=related

I wanted to recreate Simmon's tone on Dr. Love but never could.  I also liked the vocal harmonies on I Want You.

I have the first "remaster" on CD, and it flat out sucks, period. It's all overdriven fake tape compression/distortion (early days of tape emulation plug-ins and they were VERY bad) and midrange from a WAY too hard-hit Empirical Labs Distressor. I still prefer hearing its tracks on the radio around here because most of the stations did in-house digital conversions of the original vinyl when they still had actual engineers working for them. Most classic rock stations in this area are my age or older and have had the same playlists for most of that time, only changing their 'branding' as their Boomer audience aged. It sounds like I'm defintely gonna have to check the "new" one, because I really like the songs on Destroyer.

FWIW, most of the  70's rock "remasters" from around that time sound like that. I have a Heart Greatest Hits CD that is literally unlistenable; more than 30 seconds and it just becomes grating. regardless of volume, it'll give me (and my wife) a headache. I freely admit to being a fidelity snob, but I'm not exaggertaing when I say there are a few CD's in my collection I wish I had never bought because of horrible "remastering."

Welcome to the club, I'm a fidelity snob too. MP3 is barbaric. So are many lovelessly done remasters.

Flash thought about Destroyer Resurrected: Ace Frehley is no Dick Wagner! The original solo on Sweet Pain is so bad that Ace should sue them. In comparison, Wagner's solo on the version we all know is a note-choice-perfect symphony.  No wonder Ezrin got short tempered with Ace who - unlike Gene, Paul and Peter - did not do his homework. That solo is so listless, badly phrased and overall uninspired ...

Yeah, it's fun hearing the original Ace solo, but it's clear why it didn't make the cut. And funny thing - Ace's version is in the regular track listing, and the album version is the "bonus track". That was the first thing I listened to, and I was like "I don't hear the difference?"  ???  8)

Re-mix/Remaster disasters - ZZ Top and Kansas buried in reverb...

 I Look forward to picking this up while I liked Destroyer I found it weak and compressed sounding. I saw KISS on 5/10/75 on the tour that was to become Kiss Alive! One of the best shows I have ever seen and they fng rocked. The disc almost exactly mirrored the show I saw. Sure it was a bit contrived but they made it seem so spontaneous. Kiss Alive is still one of my all time favorite discs.

This is one of the better remastered releases out there.   Very well done.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Complete_Greatest_Hits_(America_album) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Complete_Greatest_Hits_(America_album))

(http://i50.tinypic.com/30dbivl.jpg)

The Rhino stuff usually is. They care.

the current remaster of sabbath's live evil is about the worst recording i have heard outside of a bootleg. i guess that's what happens when you cram a double album on to one cd. really, it sounds like it was recorded on a cassette in a boom box. :P

Which is sad considering they spent so much time in the studio with it until they lovingly, transparently to each other and jointly got the voice/music balance just right.  :-X Not to forget "honing" their fine live performances. :mrgreen:

The Heaven and Hell and Mob Rules remasters weren't so bad, does cramming more music on a CD actually affect sound quality (as it did with vinyl) other than that they become more skip prone towards the end?  ???

Uwe, I wasn't happy with the election results but this board isn't the place I go to talk about that stuff. Either way I'll survive. That being said I'm not on here as much as I've been in the past (and when I am it's usually a quick look). My kids keep me pretty busy these days and I'm the only one attending to their needs, so I'm busy teaching them to tell Pink Floyd from Aerosmith from Ozzy. They already know KISS and the Beatles when they hear them so I'm off to a good start.

I don't mind remixes or messing with the original so long as I already have the original, too. I'm enough of a trainspotter with music I like that having 10 versions of the same song is fine with me if there's something noteworthy to listen to in each one. I have 60 hours of various Beatles albums and bootlegs (and about half that of KISS material) ripped into my computer and I'm not even done loading them all in. As I said, I like the new remaster, it just falls short (IMO) even with the limitations of not working with the original tracks. There's no excuse for them having shipped CDs with an editing mistake.

For the record I thought the solo in Sweet Pain sounded ridiculous too, but I highly doubt it was anything more than a scratch pass. Ezrin talks nice in those liner notes but he had a hard on for years about Ace's not being up to par in the studio. Bob's been slagged for so long in KISSnerd circles (for using Wagner, not to mention for The Elder), I wouldn't be surprised if he included that version just to shut everyone up. Ace's work on other tracks on Destroyer and elsewhere (especially his own) shows he certainly had the skills when he wanted to use them.

And I hated RNRO's production back in the day but it definitely grew on me over the years. Love Gun absolutely stands up sonically with Destroyer so it's not like Kramer couldn't do the job. RNRO's raw production was a choice (good or bad). Where I think Kramer dropped the ball was the live stuff on Alive II. Peter sounds like he's playing trash cans and the guitars and bass aren't much better. Alive was so much better sonically that I couldn't listen to Alive II for years except side 4, which might be the best the original band (for the most part) ever sounded.

Kissnerd out.

I don't even think the editing mistake made it to European shores. I though I read that it can be exchanged against a fault-free CD in the US without any hassle? Frehley sounds on that solo like he was drunk or disgusted and he was probably both.

I know your busy with more important things than the LBO and I hope everything is working out well. Just show a sign of life then and now or I might be worried that the Obama-SS has deported you!  :mrgreen:

Quote from: uwe on November 09, 2012, 02:21:41 PM
does cramming more music on a CD actually affect sound quality (as it did with vinyl) other than that they become more skip prone towards the end?  ???

So long as it's Red Book standard: stereo, PCM, 16 bit, 44.1 kHz sampling rate, 80 minutes of audio fits on a standard 700 MB CD. In order to be sold with the "Compact Disc" logo, all commercial CD's must meet this standard. Using various compressions (mp3 etc), can save space, but because manufacturer compatibility standards and copywrite law, cannot be sold as a commercial musical release. There are various sound effect libraries and other sample media that do use mp3 on CD's, but these are explicitly labelled as such.

The problem with CD remasters of older material usually boils down to the competence of the mastering engineer. In the early days of CD's, analog master tapes were dubbed to Sony U-matic 1630 digital videotape machines, which included a built-in upper midrange EQ emphasis curve and a VERY shitty sounding AGC (automatic gain control) and the CD's were produced from the resulting digital tape. This practice continued until the early 1990's, when record labels began using dedicated audio digital format masters. That's why there were so many remastered albums that were released at that time, but many were 'rush jobs,' employing less-than-stellar (to be kind) mastering engineers supervising the transfers from the original analog masters. Many of these so-called "mastering engineers" were label coffee-jockeys whose only qualification was being able to thread the machines.

Modern masters now take the other tack and are often made at higher resolutions and then dithered down to CD format. IMO, this has its drawbacks as well, but is the industry standard.

In the case of a remix and remaster, which is completely different, the competence, motivation, ears, and ego of the producer summarily to that of the mastering engineer affect the finished product. There are lots of guys with enormous credibility that have no business butchering mastering music anymore due to hearing loss, age-induced or otherwise.

That last paragraph... 8)

I'm going to post a picture of my Hotter Than Hell inner sleeve.  Uwe would find it "interesting" I think.  8)

(http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t253/Freuds_cat/External-pics/DarthSimmons.jpg)

(http://9.mshcdn.com/wp-content/gallery/star-wars-memes/tumblr_lzo9fgercp1qgcqzko1_500.jpg)

Received the CD in the mail today.  Played it through my old Fisher system with small Advent speakers.  Gene's bass sounds so much clearer now and I really like the strings on Beth.  Uwe was right! 8)

it's a shame what has happened to the average home stereo system. the reciever, power amp, pre amp speakers etc have been replaced by hugh plastic monstosities that look like space garbage and sound about as good. there is something to be said for being old.

btw, nothing smelled as good as new audio components being switched on. or maybe that's just me. :)

Amen, Nofi, amen!!!

Hi Fi systems are out there but they're all priced out of the reach of most average folk's budget. Would be sweet to have an analog tube driven stereo system but I'm not Bill Gates. I saw Wilson speakers at one place that can cost as much as a  new porsche :o

Quote from: Hörnisse on November 13, 2012, 08:57:02 PM
Received the CD in the mail today.  Played it through my old Fisher system with small Advent speakers.  Gene's bass sounds so much clearer now and I really like the strings on Beth.  Uwe was right! 8)

Yup, Beth sounds almighty now! Played it this morning and even Edith was impressed (and she generally only rolls her eyes at the mention of Kiss, though being "The Wall"-addict she is, production by Bob Ezrin is a saving grace for her).

I don't care if it sounds like a Chicago tune (it sure starts like "If you leave me now Part II") or - as one English critic wrote - "limp enough to make Smokie*** sound like the MC5", it's a lovely arrangement, I've always liked Peter Criss' voice on it and the lyrics are not any more cheesy and self-indulgent "rock star away from home"-blues than Bob Seger's Turn the Page, actually I thought that Criss captured that "going on stage when you really would like to be at home"-dressing room feeling quite well. And of course his "a-haaaah ..." (now spoilishly included twice on the remix) is 2 die 4!!!

*** Another Yuropean phenomenon for you from the seventies, liebe Amerikaner, Chinn/Chapman penned "hit-after-hit" countrynesque lightweight pop, needless to say I liked most of their stuff too!  :-[ :-[ :-[

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnPv2z7z5RY

yeah, that stuffs for the well heeled audiophile lunatic bunch. i've known a few of these guys in my life and have reached some conclusions.

they care more about constantly upgrading their hardware than actually listening to music. :P

they tend to hoard mobile fidelity and like recordings and keep them sealed! if any record was ever meant to be played these are the ones. ???

the more you spend on a hi fi system the less bang you 'percieve' for your dollar.

the systems i have listened to (50-100K), don't sound all that much different than my Project turntable, Polk audio speakers, Sony set up. at least not many thousands of dollars more. of course i don't have a 35k turntable like my neighbor...


your results will vary i'm sure.

Yeah, but that is so with any product, diminsihing returns. The last 5 % of getting it just perfect cost as much as the first 95%.

I'm not an obsessive, but I can hear the difference between a 200 Euro and a 2.000 Euro CD player. No, it's not ten times as good, but at least twice as good, the music is just more pleasant to hear, the treble never abrasive, the sub bass more focused. My streao system is (or: was) in the 10-15k range and any 5-7k stereo system of today probably beats it. I like the way it sounds though and people who consume music mostly as mp3s over Apple products sometimes do mention that they have forgotten "how good a real stereo can sound" when we are having them for dinner.

I smile when people enter the realm of para-electronics, like "cleaning up the electrical current" before feeding it in their system so the music sounds better because, you know, "evening electricity" is somehow impure due to the sudden increase from households.  :rolleyes:

Does the finish of the CD player influence sound too?  :-X

I hear ya on the stereo systems. When our baby came along 10 years ago, I eventually moved my stuff down to the newly built "studio" (10' x 10' room in the basement). I still have a functional turntable, Carver preamp, Dynaco Stereo 70 tube power amp (2 EL34 per side), a Pioneer graphic EQ, cassette deck and Advent reissue speakers. Sounds glorious! The depth and dynamics of a vinyl LP played through it is unmatched.

I have an old Denon turntable that I bought years ago for $99. (when they were not that cool)  I've got a bunch of single CD players from the 80's.  Would love to get an old Studer one day but I like the ones I have.  The one I use most is a Yamaha CDX-470 Natural Sound. (technically early 90's)  It does the job well and I bought it at Goodwill for $20.  They had 2 of them and I'm still kicking myself for not getting both! 

Nice! I had gotten a Carver cassette deck from the Salvation Army store for $35. Worked fine for years, but the door mechanism eventually broke, so I tossed it.

Quote from: uwe on November 14, 2012, 08:37:34 AM
... My stereo system is (or: was) in the 10-15k range and any 5-7k stereo system of today probably beats it.

(picking himself off the floor) ... that's half my take-home for the year...! I think I'll stick with the ipod, howsoever heinous a crime that may be... :vader:

I didn't buy it in one year either and I was talking $ not € or your weird little island currency!  :mrgreen:

It developed over time, mainly over birthday gifts. It's a now 20 year old Marantz amp, B&W speakers (nicely worn in, sound lovely even at low volume), a Marantz CD player that was beyond its prime and a relatively new and expensive Sony CD player (but less expensive than the Marantz was at the time, yet better). I buy about 20-40 CDs a month, why would I want to listen to them on an I-Pod of all things? That is something to listen to music while riding a bicycle and then - promptly - having an accident with it because it blocks out traffic noises. Other uses escape me. I utterly disdain the Apple cult, find touchscreen offensive and am a boring utilitarian Blackberry user.  8)

Hey, I just got a cell phone a couple of years ago.  Just a tiny Nokia phone.

Tiny steps first.

Nokia needs your support more than that California Cult. And they don't force their employees to applaud the customers entering the shop either.

My tatty old ipod has no touch screen, but still holds several dozen CD's worth... :P ;D

I still have my first CD player, which was also a Marantz, as well as some (UK built) Wharfedale gear - I'd still play LP's but SWMBO most certainly does not enjoy the clutter... Jackie still does have a few hundred pretty scarce/rare C&W LP's but has not played one of them since we've been together, nearly 25 years... :o

Quote from: uwe on November 16, 2012, 04:50:15 AM
... and I was talking $ not € or your weird little island currency!  :mrgreen:

I presumed €... Not a great fan of Apple either but if I had the capital to spare I'd definitely be running a high-end Mac...

Quote from: 4stringer77 on November 14, 2012, 07:53:03 AM
Hi Fi systems are out there but they're all priced out of the reach of most average folk's budget. Would be sweet to have an analog tube driven stereo system but I'm not Bill Gates. I saw Wilson speakers at one place that can cost as much as a  new porsche :o

My bedroom stereo is an old Technics SL-P370 CD player, which oddly enough has a cult hi-fi following. ($25, pawn shop.) It uses a different system for analog conversion than just about everything else and it makes a HUGE difference in dynamics and fidelity. For anyone looking for a good CD player for cheap, any of the Technics CD players that use the MASH conversion will blow away EVERYTHING under the $20k mark and they're dirt cheap. My turntable is a Sony direct drive PS-X40 automatic with an Audio Technica cartridge ($40, Craigslist) fed through a rebuilt Dynaco PAT 1 preamp ($40, Craigslist- $20 in parts) into a pair of Bogen M0100 tube monoblocks ($200 for the pair off eBay 6-7 years ago) feeding a pair of KRK ST-6 studio monitors ($90, NEW). The speakers are wall/pair coupled for the low end and I'll put my little booger up against ANYTHING. I've been to the snob-fi stores. Until you start spending major, major (six figures) money, you're paying for names for the most part. There are exceptions, but generally, the "superior quality" is all in the head of the self-convinced buyer. ..and luck DOES factor in occasionally. I paid $15 for a Pioneer cassette deck in mint condition that was 3 grand new!

Noted (with interest) ;D

When I went looking for turntables at pawn shops about 3-4 years ago, I noticed that good quality CD players were already dirt cheap. Even saw a 5-disc Technics that had been reduced to $15. But my 1992 Onkyo is great, no complaints there, so I passed.

Eventually found an old but little-used Onkyo Integra turntable on eBay for about $70 with an Audio Technica AT140LC cartridge that's easily worth more than that by itself.

A friend of mine just spent $700+ for a restored Marantz 6100 (?) turntable.
I've never been a hi-fi snob, but I have had a couple of really neat tube systems that I got at yard sales, etc. I sold off the Dynaco ST-70, PAS-3 and FM-3 a few years back, but have held on to the Scott 299-D - which I like to run my iPod through. I thought the Scott was a better-sounding package for my purposes. When I play vinyl, it's on a Panasonic component setup from the 80s. Also have a JVC rig (also 1980s) that I use for CDs. My iPod is a 3rd generation 30gb "photo" unit that still does what I need.

I'm not a high end stereo guy.  My top end stereo system in the house has a Sony STR-DB930 in front (paid almost $500 around 2001) and Paradigm Titan speakers bought on Ebay.  (Four of them plus a Paradigm center channel speaker on a TV surround system.)

Here's the stereo tuner at the heart of my bedroom system....a Sony ST-80W (tuner only)...
(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j306/apowell1/SonyST888.jpg)

I've thought these were awesome looking ever since I saw one at a friend's house in 1972 or so.  There's no amp in it, so the signal goes to a compact 15W Radio Shack amp about the size of a paperback book.  

(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j306/apowell1/20121117_121109.jpg)

Speakers are Boston Acoustics A40 bookshelves, which actually sound quite nice.

(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j306/apowell1/20121117_121246.jpg)

Every piece bought via Ebay!

This is my music room setup.  From L-R, I have one of those Pioneer 50 CD changers that is loaded with a bunch of Time Life CD's I've collected over the years.  Then there are the Pioneer TX-6500 amp and tuner, Marantz CD-30, JVC Dual Cassette, and the Denon DP-37f table.  Not in the photo are the 2 Bose 601 speakers from the first series. 

(http://i45.tinypic.com/2ly6c9e.jpg)

(note the subtle message sent for Uwe on top of the turntable)   :)

The Fisher/Yamaha/Advent system is in the bedroom.  Our home was the model home in the then new neighborhood (1985) so it has full length mirrors on one side of the room which was formerly the office area.  Maybe I should have made it the bedroom!  ;)