OK, I've actually had a chance to do some final prep on my EB-3 bass. I pulled out the electronics and it's frankly a disaster. I think I have the original switch (still looking for it), the pups and pretty much nothing else. No pots, no choke, no caps.
So, I have no dillusions about recreating the circuitry and I'm not intersted in torturing myself trying to do so. I do have the original Gibson series 1 and 2 wiring schematics, but I don't see me being able to reproduce them. From what I read at Fly Guitars, my bass was probably a Series 2 based on the maple neck, etc. However, I sure would love to have the two pups wired up to a 4-way switch and have them work! I think someone screwed with the wiring on the pups and I'll post a pic or two tonight when I get home to get your opinions. Thanks!
Please do! I am about to hot rod the sh%t out my EB-3 project, which has zero electronics in it, so anything along with Jules' wiring diagram will be helpful.
Well, here they are. As I look at them, I think maybe the wiring is original with a little tinkering. I really don't know enough to tell.
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/drbassman/72%20EB-3L/100_3177.jpg)
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/drbassman/72%20EB-3L/100_3183.jpg)
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/drbassman/72%20EB-3L/100_3184.jpg)
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/drbassman/72%20EB-3L/DSCN0667.jpg)
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/drbassman/72%20EB-3L/DSCN0671.jpg)
Those pups seem like having 4 wires (plus ground), so someone must have done things to them. Have you checked them with a multimeter?
As for the wiring, what sounds you wanna get? Sky is the limit with 4-wires Doc, sky is the limit... :D
Quote from: exiledarchangel on November 08, 2011, 03:04:39 PM
Those pups seem like having 4 wires (plus ground), so someone must have done things to them. Have you checked them with a multimeter?
As for the wiring, what sounds you wanna get? Sky is the limit with 4-wires Doc, sky is the limit... :D
I figured. How many wires would a stock one have? Is it 3 based on the schematic? I still don't know all of the stuff on that yet. I can see the two pots on each pup. I'm unsure which is vol and which is tone. I see the choke and switch, but the wiring is still a bit Greek to me.
As for what do I want, I'm a bit boring when it comes to pup output. I love a thumpy muddy tone much of the time and occasionally a nice middy tonality with good definition. I'm not a fan of the coil tapping or all high freq/low cut nasal-sounding stuff. In case you haven't guessed, I underutilize my LP Triumph when I play it!!!
So, low and thump and some growl once in awhile is fine for me. (I know......boring)
I did put a meter on the neck pup and got no readings from any of the wires except the green on. It would jump to around 40k then drop to zero. Did it every time I tried to measure it. The other wires gave me zip.
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/drbassman/72%20EB-3L/EB3schematic-series2.jpg)
I was just looking at the pics and I see the green wire is ground, attached to the pup base. So, that still doesn't explain why I got nothing when trying to measure the others as I used the bottom of the case as my ground for my meter. Doesn't look good to me.
switch is mailing tomorrow
try reading white> yellow and red> violet
It looks in the picture like these are the wire for the individual coils. Maybe they tried to have a humbucking single coil option.
Those definitely aren't the original connections.
You could always install a gibson-style 3-way switch instead of the "correst" rotary 4-way and done with that! :D But first you must check if the pups are working.
Quote from: exiledarchangel on November 09, 2011, 07:15:11 AM
You could always install a gibson-style 3-way switch instead of the "correst" rotary 4-way and done with that! :D But first you must check if the pups are working.
I've got work the next 2 days and nights, so probably won't be till Friday!
They modded both pickups to split the coils. As here:
http://bassoutpost.com/index.php?topic=951.0
You can use a DPDT to series parallel them. That schematic is for the stock, but now you can blow doors with them.
This makes more sense to me than a schematic:
http://bassoutpost.com/index.php?topic=1295.0
This is useful:
http://www.dimarzio.com/sites/default/files/diagrams/4Conductor.pdf
This is good:
http://www.guitarhotrod.com/introwiring.html
And I love the Brosnac book.
I plan on ditching the choke entirely. Never dug it, and prefer other stuff. My hope is series parallel for each pup, plus rotary doing something stupid besides 1/1&2/2. Haven't made up my mind yet, but not choke.
Doing an out of phase with a capacitor would be interesting. Just an idea... ;) Check this one:
http://www.geocities.jp/dgb_studio/Tone2_e.htm#29 (http://www.geocities.jp/dgb_studio/Tone2_e.htm#29)
Quote from: eb2 on November 09, 2011, 02:15:42 PM
My hope is series parallel for each pup, plus rotary doing something stupid besides 1/1&2/2. Haven't made up my mind yet, but not choke.
That's the route I'd take if I were to do that mod again - shine the coil-tap and just go with a series/parallel switch. Not much appreciable difference between single-coil and parallel-coil modes IMO (...well, aside from single-coil hum). I thought the coils in parallel sounded pretty good, though!
I had done series parellel with a p-bass pup years ago, and I always liked the variety. On the Fender it just gave it an opened up honked out sound, but lower output. So I cool with that mod, and curious on how it will sound on a mudbucker. I think it may sound better on the lead pup, as it is thinner. I am loading a Duncan SM2b in mine, but haven't wired it up yet. Just a guesstimation that it would blend more effectively.
That's what I did with the MB in the PC...
OK, here's the deal. I have the hum bucker Sniper gave me that Curtis rewired and wound to original specs with the standard braided 2 conductor wire on it. I think I'd like to use that since the current pup (and the bridge pup) from the EB-3 isn't giving me any readings no matter how I combine the wires with my meter. I'm gonna call Curtis and see if he can rehab them for me.
In the meantime, I want this bass together and playable. So, here's what I want to do since it will be months before the pups can be rehabbed. I want to use the 2-wire mud bucker that I have and a reissue bridge pup (temporarily) with a 4-way switch and 2 vols - 2 tones. How might that schematic look?
Exactly like like the wiring diagram below:
http://bassoutpost.com/index.php?topic=1295.0
It is in the second post, by ramone57. That is the stock wiring for an eb-3, so where you have the choke in that diagram - and you want to skip that - either leave it blank (a jumper wire) or stick something else in there. What? It could be just another cap of another value to alter the sound, or some do-dad, or just nothing. It would function like a regular toggle but with a 4th position.
Thanks, that's one even I can follow!!!
OK, what the heck is the difference between 400 and 600v caps? Geez, this is a snake pit! What should I buy?
All you folks that fiddle around with these silly tone things... it's all in the fingertips and position along the strings... :P ;D
QuoteOK, what the heck is the difference between 400 and 600v caps?
For inside an old EB-3, nothing. Those voltage ratings are for what the cap will handle, but in a bass something would be both wrong and deadly if you were to put voltage through it. Technically we do, just its teensy miili-voltage that the pup generates. Get the cheapest.
Years ago I pulled a cap out of a Gibson bass and took it into a guitar shop to get another. I loved the tone control and figured if they could get me one, I could put it into something else. They were confused why the bass had an amplifier part in it - it was 400v rating. Fender used low end disc caps, like you can get at radio shack, but the signal would filter the same and you would never need a high voltage cap. So, that was probably what Gibson was using - amp parts/bulk buying.
Quote from: eb2 on November 10, 2011, 03:27:20 PM
Years ago I pulled a cap out of a Gibson bass and took it into a guitar shop to get another. I loved the tone control and figured if they could get me one, I could put it into something else. They were confused why the bass had an amplifier part in it - it was 400v rating. Fender used low end disc caps, like you can get at radio shack, but the signal would filter the same and you would never need a high voltage cap. So, that was probably what Gibson was using - amp parts/bulk buying.
i have been told this same thing by several electronic engineers concerning the chokes in the EB series ... amp parts in a guitar. max we are talking about would be about 500 milli volts output in a mudbass.
Quote from: eb2 on November 10, 2011, 03:27:20 PM
Years ago I pulled a cap out of a Gibson bass and took it into a guitar shop to get another. I loved the tone control and figured if they could get me one, I could put it into something else. They were confused why the bass had an amplifier part in it - it was 400v rating. Fender used low end disc caps, like you can get at radio shack, but the signal would filter the same and you would never need a high voltage cap. So, that was probably what Gibson was using - amp parts/bulk buying.
Interesting. So many builders swear by Orange drops over the low end caps. They claim they sound better that the other caps, but who knows?
Quote from: drbassman on November 11, 2011, 05:50:22 AM
Interesting. Some many builders swear by Orange drops over the low end caps. They claim they sound better that the other caps, but who knows?
That's an example of where psycho-acoustics (the ability to hear what you want or expect to hear) impinges on actual acoustics. When it comes to discussions of parts like Cap type A vs. Cap type B, there are people who will go to the mat for their preference. When it comes to this kind of tiny part, I find it difficult to separate the parts which actually make a difference from those which only make a difference on the psycho-acoustic level, in which you hear what you want to hear.
i rewired an old kramer with cts 250 pots, .47 orange drop cap and switchcraft jack. i noticed an immediate change for the better. could be the original electric were crap...
That is all top drawer stuff, so I would guess that was an upgrade.
Quote from: eb2 on November 10, 2011, 06:57:14 AM
Exactly like like the wiring diagram below:
http://bassoutpost.com/index.php?topic=1295.0
It is in the second post, by ramone57. That is the stock wiring for an eb-3, so where you have the choke in that diagram - and you want to skip that - either leave it blank (a jumper wire) or stick something else in there. What? It could be just another cap of another value to alter the sound, or some do-dad, or just nothing. It would function like a regular toggle but with a 4th position.
OK, if I substitute a jumper for the choke, I just run a wire from the rotary switch lug #8 to the pot ground, right? And how the heck do I figure out the numbers on the lugs on the 4-way?
Quote from: eb2 on November 10, 2011, 03:27:20 PM
Years ago I pulled a cap out of a Gibson bass and took it into a guitar shop to get another. I loved the tone control and figured if they could get me one, I could put it into something else. They were confused why the bass had an amplifier part in it - it was 400v rating. Fender used low end disc caps, like you can get at radio shack, but the signal would filter the same and you would never need a high voltage cap. So, that was probably what Gibson was using - amp parts/bulk buying.
Even those crappy disc caps are rated at 400 and even 600 volts in most cases too. A large electrolytic cap does sound better, especially for bass, but not because the the voltage rating. The cap itself has a lower equivalent series resistance which means it passes more current. That means more low end and an overall fuller sound. It gets better the more expensive the caps become, but like most things with passive components, there is a large point of diminishing returns. Here's a thread that discusses this in more detail (even involves modern era Gibson chicanery):
Magic-Beans (http://ampworkshop.yuku.com/topic/4927/You-ll-always-get-rich-selling-Magic-Beans)
Quote from: Psycho Bass Guy on November 15, 2011, 01:40:10 AM
A large electrolytic cap does sound better, especially for bass
Didn't knew that, I thought electros were a no-no for use in passive tone controls.
Quote from: Psycho Bass Guy on November 15, 2011, 01:40:10 AM
Even those crappy disc caps are rated at 400 and even 600 volts in most cases too. A large electrolytic cap does sound better, especially for bass, but not because the the voltage rating. The cap itself has a lower equivalent series resistance which means it passes more current. That means more low end and an overall fuller sound. It gets better the more expensive the caps become, but like most things with passive components, there is a large point of diminishing returns. Here's a thread that discusses this in more detail (even involves modern era Gibson chicanery):
Magic-Beans (http://ampworkshop.yuku.com/topic/4927/You-ll-always-get-rich-selling-Magic-Beans)
Good thread. I especially liked this comment "I still can't see how Gibson can possible justify the $133 price (and I mean why the 33c?) even if they were identical in every respect to the original ones, hand made, the oil hand squeezed from some rare Peruvian ant and the foil rolled on the thigh of some sultry dusky maiden living on an island in the middle of nowhere."
If Henry reads that, he'll be off to the Peruvian jungles to find some oily ants. And then a Peruvian export official to mislabel the shipment.
Dr. i sent you two pictures to use as reference. call me tonight and i will explain the orientation as i understand it for determining the lug pattern as i don't read schematics either. i think we can get through this.
Quote from: sniper on November 15, 2011, 01:44:45 PM
Dr. i sent you two pictures to use as reference. call me tonight and i will explain the orientation as i understand it for determining the lug pattern as i don't read schematics either. i think we can get through this.
I'm booked up tonight. OK if I call you tomorrow during the day? I'm home from work all day on Wednesday.
anytime
My update - I am starting to solder up the wiring harness, and have at least the initial lineup set. Regular EB-3 wiring with choke replaced by schotkey diode black ice do-dad. Tone pots are push-pull with series parallel for each pup. Lead pup is SD SM2b minibucker. Rear is modded mudbucker. In wiring up for 4 conductor, douche bag me f-ed up one of the coils. It was a 70s EB mudbucker. So I replaced one coil with a 60s mudbucker hotter/muddier coil, and the other with a DiMarzio model G coil. Then I threw an extra magnet in there to fill up the space on the smaller DiMarzio coil. In series it kicks out 25k. So, respectable mudbucker oomph, and in theory should sound different with the smaller Dimarzio G coil. I have no idea if this will sound good or bad or what, but I figure it is worth a ride for a bit. I will let you know when I get it together.
Quote from: eb2 on November 28, 2011, 11:24:40 AM
My update - I am starting to solder up the wiring harness, and have at least the initial lineup set. Regular EB-3 wiring with choke replaced by schotkey diode black ice do-dad. Tone pots are push-pull with series parallel for each pup. Lead pup is SD SM2b minibucker. Rear is modded mudbucker. In wiring up for 4 conductor, douche bag me f-ed up one of the coils. It was a 70s EB mudbucker. So I replaced one coil with a 60s mudbucker hotter/muddier coil, and the other with a DiMarzio model G coil. Then I threw an extra magnet in there to fill up the space on the smaller DiMarzio coil. In series it kicks out 25k. So, respectable mudbucker oomph, and in theory should sound different with the smaller Dimarzio G coil. I have no idea if this will sound good or bad or what, but I figure it is worth a ride for a bit. I will let you know when I get it together.
I'd love to hear your thoughts on the sound of the black ice unit.
I will be glad to once I get it all soldered up. I don't know if I will like it as I seldom like distortion or grind on the bass. But I find the choke to be not so spectacular, so it is worth a shot.
I am curious on how the mudbucker mod will sound. Both coils series clock in around 25k, but in parallel the DiMarzio coil sucks the life out of it and drops it down to 5k. By itself it is over 7k. Should be peculiar. If it sucks, I will throw a regular mudbucker from the pile in there.
Ok, guys. I have some deciphering of the EB-3 wiring to figure out, so I can understand how to modify it in a way that makes sense. Hopefully I can get it worked out.
What is the purpose of the 220k resistor and the .02mfd cap that I read as being between the mudbucker and the switch. Is the 220k in there to keep the mudbucker and the lead pup from squelching each other in full volume? What is the 02mfd cap for?
I want to make this a sleeper - looks stock, but isn't. I am going to end up moving things around, as I don't want the stock wiring. I am not so sure what is the purpose of some of this.
Here is what I am thinking of. How does it look?
I hope for:
Pos 1 - Mud
Pos 2 - Mud and Bridge
Pos 3 - Bridge
Pos 4 - Mud and Bridge with SChottky diode/black ice on mud
I use push pull tone pots to do series parallel on each pup, so they are using 4 conductors (Duncan color code). I pitched the 220k resistor, as I think by using a Les Paul Indy vol set up I don't need that, and I skip the 02mfd cap as I dont think I need that with the black ice.
Will this work?
Quote from: eb2 on January 05, 2012, 12:48:42 AM
What is the purpose of the 220k resistor and the .02mfd cap that I read as being between the mudbucker and the switch. Is the 220k in there to keep the mudbucker and the lead pup from squelching each other in full volume? What is the 02mfd cap for?
That resistor works along with the cap and inductor in the orig circuit to create various filter configs (RLC filters (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RLC_circuit)) depending on the position of the varitone switch. I
think the filters end up working like this in the 60s EB-3:
Pos 1: Mudbucker only with a wide band-rejection filter, letting mostly just the low frequencies thru
Pos 2: Bridge pickup wide open
Pos 3: Mudbucker and bridge, with high-pass filter applied to the mud ("choking" the lows out)
Pos 4: Same as 3, minus the bridge pickup
Anyway, you won't need that 220k resistor if your're ditching the inductor and cap in your new circuit.
If you haven't already bought the Black Ice, you might try picking up some small signal diodes like you mentioned (BAT41s, etc...) and wire a pair of them in parallel - each with opposite polarity - in place of the black ice in your diagram (similar effect for ~$0.40). Another idea might be to try them in place of the tone control cap for control over the amount of clipping... or even wire one master tone and one clipping pot on the output, instead of a tone control for each pickup.
I still need to wrap my head around your new wiring diagram. I wasn't understanding the connections on the 3p4t at first glance. I always have a hard time reading wiring diags, though.
Cool ideas. I like the sleeper approach.
QuoteIf you haven't already bought the Black Ice, you might try picking up some small signal diodes like you mentioned (BAT41s, etc...) and wire a pair of them in parallel - each with opposite polarity - in place of the black ice in your diagram
That is exactly what I did. I did see a mess up, and I have a correction, which is simple enough. When you throw the black ice effect in, it is fed into the mix via the tone pot, I believe. Keeping the cap in there would goof it up a bit, so I have the first three positions of the C lug on the 3P4T for the cap to the mudbucker tone pot, then the 4th position throws the black ice in, and removes the cap. They stay attached to the ground, but the hot end gets left hanging on the 3P4T when not selected. That should do it. I am going to solder it up/test it tomorrow when i get a free hour.
An update, and for sh!ts sake, it actually works. I don't know if there is anything wrong in there yet, but I get all the switch positions doing their thing right. The black ice schottkey diode thing is actually subtle, and maybe a problem in hearing it is that I am testing it via a headphone amp so it farts in general. But you can hear a shift in tone and a general grind to it when it kicks in. I am using a Duncan SM2B in the mini pup, so it competes very well with the mudbucker, and actually overtakes it with the mud in parallel wiring. Very happy.
Nice! How does that Duncan SM2B sounds on its own?
Congrats! If the diode thing is too subtle, maybe try germanium diodes... the spec to look for is something with very low forward voltage drop (Vf) around 0.2v. The Ges might clip a little more of the signal, versus the silicon diodes which tend towards a higher rating there. Subtle is probably more desirable, though.
I may mess around more. I used a length of wire to the diodes, so I can easily snip them out and sub something else. But I am pragmatic, and it does work. It sounds good. It has a lot of variation, and when I get it all done I will figure out how to record sound clips. And pics, etc. I have a few issues to figure out still. The push pulls are too big for the SG body, so I have to figure that out. I am thinking of a solution for the plate, as I will not pop dpdt holes in the top. Hardest thing now is I am getting tired of working on it, and just want to be done. And the witch hats I got don't like the pot shafts. Always something.
The SM2b is great sounding, to me. It has a fat sharper tone, and it a load more powerful than the original. Much more useful as far as blending. It picks up more of the higher end, obviously. Again, sound clips eventually. But I had been considering that and the hot DiMarzio, which I think is not being made anymore, but is hard to find and expensive when you do. It has a couple of k's less than the Duncan. But those are what I was looking at. I like it a lot.
And the witch hats I got don't like the pot shafts. Always something.
if the pot shafts aredesigned for using knobs with a set screw, perhaps some sleeves would help?
http://guitarpartsresource.com/electrical_pothardware.htm
Quote from: eb2 on January 07, 2012, 07:50:51 PM
...The push pulls are too big for the SG body, so I have to figure that out...And the witch hats I got don't like the pot shafts
I ran into that on my former EB-0, where I used push/pulls for series/parallel and coil-tap configs. I miss that bass, but just couldn't justify keeping that and a similar era EB-3.
I used a Dremel and disc-type sander to remove a little thickness right where the pots mount. Really hated to do that, but it helped... and there was enough wood to spare in the case of that particular specimen (it was also a beater with repaired body cracks and plugged pbass route). I was able to keep the brass insert in there, and it just conformed once the pots were installed.
(http://www.hillscloud.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/eb0-6.jpg)
It might have been you that mentioned using a bit of gasket material around the edge of the control plate to give some extra clearance. That was a good idea, but I didn't end up having to go there once I made the change described above. Might help in your situation, though.
I seem to recall having trouble installing the witch hats too. Wish I remembered what the circumstance was. The pots were knurled like the hats, but they didn't fit well if I recall. I think I might have had to enlarge/dremel the hats a bit to fit(?)
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k125/0chromium0/forums/eb0/mod/DSCF0086.jpg)
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k125/0chromium0/forums/eb0/mod/DSCF0066.jpg)
That is ringing a bell, and kind of what I am going to attempt. I will do it one of two ways - either an outline piece of pickguard plastic or something similar to lift the whole plate up a tad. Kind of a big donut. Or, take a new backplate - Gibson or aftermarket - and cut out a clearance hole for the push pulls, then make a raised cover for that. I am terrified to rout the body thinner at the controls because I have seen too many cracked up SG control areas, and this one has no breaks. It did - the neck came with a body that had been smashed there, and the body came with a decapitated neck. Now whole. I have been working on this beast for way too long. I could have bought two.
I used DiMarzio pots. The volume and tone (push pull) have different shafts. I got the Vol on fine, but the tone is not the same edge profile and it grabs up too quick. I may just gently drill it out a tad. They aren't set screws, just jam them on style. Worst case scenario I buy a couple of the Allparts mid-60s style knobs as they make them for both style shafts. I prefer the mid 60s vibe, but this is a 69ish bass kind of.
The DiMarzio pots are great. I have used them in the past and like them, and a lot of metal-head guitar guys say they are smoother. I don't play around with the knobs too much but I guess if I want to, I am good to go. And they are cheap. Good enough for me.
Quote from: eb2 on January 09, 2012, 10:50:52 AM
And they are cheap. Good enough for me.
CTS pots are overhyped IMO. Construction is no doubt beefier, and people expect parts like that on certain guitars- but functionally speaking and given the typical markup? Meh. I do use them for some of these projects, but its more of a "feel" thing. When I turn a knob on an old Gibson, I expect that faster travel and "clunk" at the extremities. The Alphas, etc.. have a slight friction and smoother feel to them. Purely psychological.
As for longevity, I recently repaired and restored the old 70s keyboard pictured below, and all of its "cheaper" pots cleaned up and operate perfectly now. The *one* scratchy pot that remains? The uber expensive sealed mil-spec pot (ala Alembic and other high-end stuff) used on the master volume ;D I'll have to replace that one, as it seems to be beyond its ability to self clean. The modular synth behind it is comprised almost entirely of Alpha pots going on 10+ years old. They all still work perfectly, and those see a helluva lot more movement than my guitar pots ever will.
(http://www.hillscloud.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/fvs1.jpg)
So IMHO, there's really nothing wrong with the cheaper pots.
I use Alphas on my basses/guitar and some effects I've build and I'm happy with em. I tend to change pots on my stuff for some reason, even if there isn't some obvious problem with them. I think that's called OCD! :D
convert it to an EB3 type and use one of my varitone plates to cover the present hole plug. just thinkin!
Ok, I made a neater, I hope, diagram. You could sub two other things of some sort in the 2nd and 3rd position of Pole C for more fun. Any critiques or comments are welcome. I still don't have the back on it yet, so soldering is an option.