The Last Bass Outpost
Main Forums => The Bass Zone => Topic started by: nofi on September 03, 2011, 07:09:22 AM
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what would the bass world be like if jack bruce had never played his eb3, longhorn or fender baritone. while short scales have a small but dedicated following, i frankly can't think of a compelling enough reason to own one. i've owned an eb3 and some others but not for long. aamof, in a lifetime of concert going i have ony seen one short scale being played; jack bruce in cream. feel free to talk among or amongst yourselves.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIkvANt-la0&feature=related
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They're easier to play and they have this certain sound....
Shortscale players. If I only think of some brands:
Danelectro Longhorn: Jack Bruce, Rinus Gerritsen, Frank Kraaijeveld, Tom Petty (Travelling Wilburys), guy from E Street Band, Entwistle.
Gibson EB3: Rinus again, Jack Bruce again, Mike Watt.
Fender Mustang Bass: An awful lot of chick bassists, guy from Status Quo, Bill Wymann.
Hofner violin: Paul McCartney.
Ronnie Lane: EB2/Rivoli and Harmonies.
Mani (Primal Scream/Stone Roses): Rickenbacker 3000.
Jack Casady: Guild Starfire
All the British Invasion Bands were using EB2s and Rivolis.
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The bass world would be pretty much the same as now. Short scales have been almost a non-factor in the market for over 40 years. I credit short scale fans on bass forums for keeping interest in them alive. OTOH that hasn't made them sell well and I don't think it ever will.
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Dont't forget Jim Lea of Slade and his EB3. Possibly the best use ever of a EB3 ever ;) Lets face it Jack Bruce's tone was crap.................... imho of course http://youtu.be/S2Kmch2swn8 http://youtu.be/9m-loYwaCJI
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I happen to be a fan of short-scale basses, despite having big hands and easily playing long-scales.
I've owned/own Voxes, Hagstroms, a Fender Musicmaster and Bass VI, EBOs, numerous Hamer short-scale 4-, 8- and 12-strings.
Off topic a bit....my true preference is for medium-scale 32-inch basses.
My thoughts on scale length is largely from a different direction. Most guys who claim a long-scale is "better" do so from a player/audiophile prespective....and they are correct. But I see it from a "fan/music buyer" perspective....where 99 percent of fans at a concert cannot tell the difference in sound between bass scales live or on recordings. So, the point is moot.
There are certainly hundreds of great hit songs that were played on short-scale basses. I cannot recall EVER hearing one listener saying "this song would have been better if the bass player played it on a long-scale."
No one except a bass player really cares.
And if a producer thinks the bass sounds weak/lack bottom on a session and he can't EQ in what he wants to hear....he calls in a keyboard guy to layer it with synth bass :)
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My first was a short scale (EB2 copy) but I haven't played one since '77
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Don't forget the Dan Armstrong Lucite basses Jack, Geezer, Wyman... and the guy from the Georgia Satellites.
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(I think I just had an accident in my trousers)
I kept missing one of those back in '77 before I bought the PC
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Dont't forget Jim Lea of Slade and his EB3. Possibly the best use ever of a EB3 ever ;)
Best use of the EB-3 prize goes to Andy Fraser in my universe ...... ;) And while we're at it: best use of the EB-2 to Tony Reeves / best use of the EB-1 to Felix Pappalardi ..... ;D
I've been switching my collection to mostly short scales over the last few years because my fingers aren't quite as dextrous as they once were. Sonically it felt like coming home after a long journey.
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Some of my favorite players used short scales:
Stanley Clarke - his Alembics have always been short scale.
Phil Lesh of the Grateful Dead - used EB-3 & Guild Starfires early on, then early Alembics
+1 on Andy Fraser - he got such a great sound, presumably with an EB-3
I have definitely developed a liking for short scales - two of my current favorites:
(http://img355.imageshack.us/img355/5435/sclp2tm3.jpg)
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Much of the great classic rock of the 60's was played on short scale basses. I agree with Dave that they have not been a dominant factor in the market, but there have been short scale basses on the market from Gibson, Epi, Gretsch, Univox, Dano, Fender and many other manufacturers.
So even if they are 10 or 20% of the market, they have a place and a following.
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Much of the great classic rock of the 60's was played on short scale basses. I agree with Dave that they have not been a dominant factor in the market, but there have been short scale basses on the market from Gibson, Epi, Gretsch, Univox, Dano, Fender and many other manufacturers.
So even if they are 10 or 20% of the market, they have a place and a following.
They do have a place and a following. I would be astounded if they even have 5% of the market, though.
Like 5-string basses and flatwound strings, there's always a lot more talk about them on bass forums than sales in the real world. All the talk is fine with me, just don't let it blind you to market reality.
Also, keep in mind that many players who were once associated with them have long since moved to long scale. Casady, Lesh, Bruce (except for the one-time Cream reunion), etc.
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a final remark on frasier. interesting blues box meanderings but with a very 'burpy tone'. not a good sound imo. i will take the jack bruce "crappy" tone anytime.
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I'm selling my only short scale 4 four string due to a lack of use. :-\ Love it, recorded a couple of songs that I'm very proud of with it, but.... Bye bye Guild JS II! Keeping the Hamer 12 though. ;D
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I like the tone of short scales better, as it ends to lack the harmonic content of 34" basses. I don't like bright, which might sound odd for a fellow who owns a Marcus Miller Jazz, a Stingray with a maple fretboard, and a 12 string. I just can't get past the feel. I do, however, LOVE my SX shorty Jazz.
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Sorry i forgot Andy Fraser in my list. Thought about it but forgot to mention...
i recorded most of the upcoming La La Lies album with my SG Reissue Bass cos it was the best sounding bass in studio.
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I only own a couple of short scales at the moment (SG RI, Dan Armstrong RI) because of the Stones tribute I play in. Other than that, I would not deliberately buy one, as I definitely prefer the sound and playability of long scale (I have big hands). That said, the SG RI is a great little bass, and the quality and tone are first rate.
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Best use of the EB-3 prize goes to Andy Fraser in my universe ...... ;)
+1,000,000
I'm digging my EB-2, my S.D. Curlee and my G&L L-1000. 30, 32 and 34" respectively and my latest additions. They sound very different from each other. Got a Frankenstein 5 string with G & L pups coming next week. Variety is the spice of life!
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I love short scales, got a bunch of them: EB-2, gretsch Thunder Jet, Vox, Les Paul Triumph, Guild M-85 scratch build. They may not be big market basses, btu they have a unique sound and feel. Variety is the spice of life!
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That one on the right....yeah.
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I think I have more short scales than long...
DeArmond Jetstar
Squire Bronco (Gretsch 2202 pickup)
Squier Jaguar
Gretsch 5123
Gretsch 2202 (think I'm selling this one now that I have the 1222)
Gretsch 1222
Univox 335-copy hollowbody
Gibson EB-0
Applause AE-40
Rogue VB-100 Violin Bass
On some of them, the E isn't quite as powerful as that on some of my 34" basses, but that's not a fatal flaw - it's a difference in the sound. It's a reason to rotate basses.
Dave's probably right that shorts scales are really a small part of the market, but there sure are a lot of them out there.
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Hey guy's, your forgettin Allen Woody. He sure played some good stuff on short scales
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And some modern bands: Both bassist of Arctic Monkeys played a Ricky 3000 for a while, The Zutons with an EB2 or Rivoli (*), Wolfmother with an Longhorn reissue, ...
But of course there are 1.000 bands with long scales for every band above.
(*) Zutons bass player plays now with Noel Gallaghers High Flying Birds. I saw him on a pic with a Fender Jazz.
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I think I have more short scales than long...
I did too, until I realized I hardly play them any more. Love the sound but not the feel. Until recently I had 6 shorties - three 70's Musicmasters, two Mustangs, and the Orfeus Hebros (and in the past I had an EB2, Bass VI, Dano and numerous Hofners). Now I'm selling four and keeping just one Musicmaster (a really good one) and the Orfeus which serves as my sofa bass.
The Orfeus, with its 335-ish body, doesn't feel small like a Mustang or Hofner 500/1. And more important, the nut is roughly at the same place in relation to my body as a 34" P or J nut would be. The Bass VI didn't feel small for the same reason - it has a 30" scale neck but the bridge is further up the body, so overall length is the same (actually a bit longer) as a P bass and it feels like a long scale (with cramped strings).
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Feel is very important. A Mustang/Musicmaster or Hofner looks and feels really small. They have very short necks. EB2s, EB3s, Rivolis, Starfires and so are as long as a P. The bridge is more to the middle.
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Chris hit it on the head. An eb 2or starfire never feel too short to me but a hofner, longhorn mustang feel like toys...
32" scale is perfect. can't understand why it never really was popular. alembic, curlee nobody else though fodera has had a big seller for the 33" matt garrison bass (5 string high c) for all the frustrated guitar chord players on the bass....
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To me short scale basses are like fretless, acoustic, 5 string etc. Different strings to the same bow.
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I love to play my 32" Burns Vista Sonic. Ideal scale! Unfortunately her neck's a bit influenced by weather and temperature. Thought about having a new neck made with the escisitng tuners and so, but that's quite expensive.
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I used to be completely unaware of the differences between short scale bass guitars and long scale bass guitars.
Until the day I saw Cry Of Love bass player Robert Kearns with his Gibson Triumph. That put a stop my blatant ignorance.
It was the best sounding bass I had ever heard/seen.
I can't say that I'm a short scale fan in particular. I just love the sound of those Les Paul Basses. And they happen to be short scale. There are short scales out there that I don't care about (7enders for example never did it for me)
In my collection there are 8 shorties and 5 long scales. (think it's about time I bought a few long scales to even the score a bit... LOL)
A few good shortie ambassadors:
Andy Fraser
Allen Woody
Robert Kearns
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32" scale is perfect. can't understand why it never really was popular. alembic, curlee nobody else though
Kubicki ExFactors were 32-inch....and Hamer made 32's since the late-80s on request, originally for Jack Blades' small hands and then for the general public.
Ideally, a fanned fretboard (Dingwall, Novax, etc) with 32 on the high side and 34 on the low is the perfect combination IMO.
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The issue about how the bass sits relative to your body is critical...and it's the reason that I got a 34" EB-3 and got rid of it immediately. The way that bass is laid out threw the neck much farther to my left than usual - I just couldn't reach the lowest frets comfortably. I immediately swore off owning any other 34" scale SG-style bass.
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Ideally, a fanned fretboard (Dingwall, Novax, etc) with 32 on the high side and 34 on the low is the perfect combination IMO.
A 34" scale is the ideal length for the G-string, so you would need to start from there and go up for even harmonic tone across all the strings, like on the Dingwall Voodoo basses, which end up with a 37" B-string for their fiver. They were VERY smart, however, in making their Jazz copy start at 32" on the G and going to 34" for the longest scale length which gives its E a traditional tone while evening up the response of the other strings to it.
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Pilgrim, i'm the opposite. i like them farther to the left. i play really low and if the bass hangs too far to the right i end up picking on the fret board.
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"A 34" scale is the ideal length for the G-string ..."
If you're a slapper. I find a 30" scale G string much more expressive, it also sounds phatter. 34" is crucial with the E IMHO and pretty much no other string.
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A 34" scale is the ideal length for the G-string, so you would need to start from there and go up for even harmonic tone across all the strings, like on the Dingwall Voodoo basses, which end up with a 37" B-string for their fiver. They were VERY smart, however, in making their Jazz copy start at 32" on the G and going to 34" for the longest scale length which gives its E a traditional tone while evening up the response of the other strings to it.
Um....so if Dingwall was "VERY smart...making their Jazz copy 32 on G to 34 on E," just like I said.....why would 34 on G to 37 on B be better?
Maybe "techncially" if you throw it on a meter, the 34-to-37 might show better frequencies but I don't think I want to be reaching to 37 inches....despite having he big hands to do it. If I recall, the open D on a Kubikci uses a 36-inch scale and that is certainly long enough a reach. I have a few low B basses that have great B strings using just a 34-inch scale.
A 32-to-34 fanned fret bass combines the medium scale on the G (which most long-scale players would hardly notice as different) and the typical 34-inch E that mosts players use. That seems the best of both worlds...playability vs sound.
When Stu Hamm sold em a couple of his Kubickis, one was the drop D ExFactor and the other a non-drop D Factor that he said Satriani insisted he get, claiming the 32-inch low E "lacked bottom." Even Hamm said he thought he was just imagining it because he knew the ExFactor was a medium scale.
As I said earlier.....virtually NO ONE listening to a live concert or recording can hear the difference between short/medium/long scale basses. It is hard to tell if what is being heard if from the actual bass or the processing. Only after visually seeing the bass model will you start to "imagine" what you are hearing and start to rationalize IMO.
***TO ILLUSTRATE THIS......ANYONE HAVE ANY AUDIO TRACKS TO POST FOR MEMBERS TO GUESS WHAT SCALE BASS WAS BEING USED? MIGHT BE INTERESTING.
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If a short or medium scale bass lacks bottom, it's not because of the scale length. What they do lack is the authority on the E string that a long scale bass has. And they aren't as harmonically complex.
IIRC Uwe was the first to post this, noting how Woody avoided the E on the short scales but rides it with the T-Bird at the end. Doesn't mean either is better or worse, just an example.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3OwLV4s6PY
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And they aren't as harmonically complex.
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Explain please.
I talked about this with a luthier the other day.
In his opinion all the harmonics are there. In the same place.
But the string tension is just different, which makes some shorties (with too thin strings) sound floppy.
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Explain please.
I talked about this with a luthier the other day.
In his opinion all the harmonics are there. In the same place.
But the string tension is just different, which makes some shorties (with too thin strings) sound floppy.
The harmonics are there no matter what scale length, the question is how much they are heard. The amplitudes of different frequencies changes with scale length. Even with very small differences. Even if you compensate for string tension.
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The harmonics are there no matter what scale length, the question is how much they are heard. The amplitudes of different frequencies changes with scale length. Even with very small differences. Even if you compensate for string tension.
Only if you believe in knowledge based Physics.
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"A 34" scale is the ideal length for the G-string ..."
If you're a slapper. I find a 30" scale G string much more expressive, it also sounds phatter. 34" is crucial with the E IMHO and pretty much no other string.
That's exactly the point. When a string has a "proper" harmonic period, it has a much higher harmonic content, IOW, it is much brighter because of all the octave overtones, the 'piano string' sound.
Um....so if Dingwall was "VERY smart...making their Jazz copy 32 on G to 34 on E," just like I said.....why would 34 on G to 37 on B be better?
...because if you gave a Jazz copy the "correct" intonation scale length, it would no longer sound and play like a Jazz bass. Their Jazz copy is an attempt to use the traditional shape and low E of a Jazz bass but give it a more consistent string-to-string tone and feel.
Maybe "techncially" if you throw it on a meter, the 34-to-37 might show better frequencies but I don't think I want to be reaching to 37 inches....despite having he big hands to do it. If I recall, the open D on a Kubikci uses a 36-inch scale and that is certainly long enough a reach. I have a few low B basses that have great B strings using just a 34-inch scale.
You've missed the point of what I'm talking about completely. I'm NOT saying that anything less than 37" is wrong, just that by the laws of physics, a vibrating electric bass string tuned to low B will have its most even harmonic content when stretched across a period of 37" (or 74", 148"... etc).
As I said earlier.....virtually NO ONE listening to a live concert or recording can hear the difference between short/medium/long scale basses. It is hard to tell if what is being heard if from the actual bass or the processing. Only after visually seeing the bass model will you start to "imagine" what you are hearing and start to rationalize IMO.
If the bass sound was accurately presented, it would be blatantly obvious to even the most casual listener, but then it most likely would sound bad to everyone, including the player, and would probably not work within the context of amplified music.
***TO ILLUSTRATE THIS......ANYONE HAVE ANY AUDIO TRACKS TO POST FOR MEMBERS TO GUESS WHAT SCALE BASS WAS BEING USED? MIGHT BE INTERESTING
Try switching to decaf. You're fighting a battle that doesn't exist.
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If a short or medium scale bass lacks bottom, it's not because of the scale length. What they do lack is the authority on the E string that a long scale bass has. And they aren't as harmonically complex.
Exactly.
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Only if you believe in knowledge based Physics.
Careful; that's fool talk for an internet bass forum.
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Careful; that's fool talk for an internet bass forum.
That's why I like to state, "According to my crackpot theory," when pulling unsubstantiated facts from my rectum.
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That's why I like to state, "According to my crackpot theory," when pulling unsubstantiated facts from my rectum.
:mrgreen:
If anyone is inclined to look at something technical, read this Ralph Novak lecture (http://www.novaxguitars.com/info/technical.html) about scale length differences and tone.
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Have played both short and long scales as my main bass. For me, the difference is long scales "speak" with more authority...move more air.
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That's why I like to state, "According to my crackpot theory," when pulling unsubstantiated facts from my rectum.
I wouldn't call true fact unsubstantiated. Unsubstantiated facts are the most popular and oft-repeated and carry the most weight. Truth is seldom popular.
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That's why I like to state, "According to my crackpot theory," when pulling unsubstantiated facts from my rectum.
I wouldn't call true fact unsubstantiated. Unsubstantiated facts are the most popular and oft-repeated and carry the most weight. Truth is seldom popular.
I should have put quotes around "facts"
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Like Steve Martin said on one of his early albums, "I wish they would have told me I was not allowed to lie or make up facts."
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Well, I played my Gretsch ThunderJet at practice last night and it kicked ass! The guys in the band loved it. Beefy flats and TV Jones pups, sound great. Scale is not an issue, especially with the right tube driven amp. I played my Gibson Triumph too and it did just as well. I didn't have any issues with a flabby sounding e-string
I took along my 92 TB that I got from the Old Man and it too sounded fantastic with rounds on it. Overall, I think I gonna play the Gretsch and the TB on and off.
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Well, I played my Gretsch ThunderJet at practice last night and it kicked ass! The guys in the band loved it. Beefy flats and TV Jones pups, sound great. Scale is not an issue, especially with the right tube driven amp. I played my Gibson Triumph too and it did just as well. I didn't have any issues with a flabby sounding e-string
I took along my 92 TB that I got from the Old Man and it too sounded fantastic with rounds on it. Overall, I think I gonna play the Gretsch and the TB on and off.
Bill, this tends to reinforce my feeling that in a mix, many basses that may sound different still sound very good. IMO there's not one sound that is good, there are lots of them. I suspect the reason is that you still sound like YOU.
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Bill, this tends to reinforce my feeling that in a mix, many basses that may sound different still sound very good. IMO there's not one sound that is good, there are lots of them. I suspect the reason is that you still sound like YOU.
There's something to be said for our own style, regardless of the bass we're playing. I do adjust my playing on the TB. It has TIs and I can't attack it as hard, but it growls naturally anyway. The Gretsch has stiffer flats and I can lay into it a bit more. It's really about the amp too. We have a custom built tube amp with 4 10" speakers and it makes about any bass sound great.
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Stanley Clarke has hardly any problems with bottom end or harmonics with is $10,000 Alembics. He better not for that cash.
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Stanley Clarke has hardly any problems with bottom end or harmonics with is $10,000 Alembics.
I disagree. I think his Alembic sound lacks bottom end. He probably likes it like that.
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I disagree. I think his Alembic sound lacks bottom end. He probably likes it like that.
Alembics have a unique sound and feel that lends itself well to a LEAD bass/solo up the wazoo style, and that is the Stanley Clarke thing. That being said, I couldn't agree more about lacking in the bottom end. They are more for cutting and less for blending. I got my hands on one at a jem session a year or so ago, and I thought I was really going to be Wowed by it.....but I wasn't :o. I'm a die hard Fender Precision guy(who occassionaly strays a little), and that Alembic just felt and sounded more like a guitar than a bass to me. I know a lot of players absolutely love them, but they are not my cup of tea. On the other hand, both my Ps, particularly my 51 RI, are definately not a favorite among a lot of bass players, but I love 'em both.
Rick
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I used to be a P guy but due to the deminishing mobility of my left hand I had to sell my beloved CS 51 RI. Trust me there is a life beyond the P ..... these days I'm a SG guy and loving it .... ;D
(http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/373/sisterssgeb3.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/825/sisterssgeb3.jpg/)
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I used to be a P guy but due to the deminishing mobility of my left hand I had to sell my beloved CS 51 RI. Trust me there is a life beyond the P ..... these days I'm a SG guy and loving it .... ;D
(http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/373/sisterssgeb3.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/825/sisterssgeb3.jpg/)
Any chance you can details the differences between these 3 basses? Especially the red Epi and Gibson. I don't know much about them.
To my untrained eye, the pickups look similar, but the switch and knob configuration are very different.
I like shorties, and have always been a fan of the SG - unfortunately I've played two EB-0's in my life, and they were both junk. Physical junk - mistreated.
BTW, the sunburst is gorgeous.
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Fireburst if you please ...... ;)
In short:
The Epi is a MIJ Elitist EB-3 with US PUPs and sounds much like a 70s Gibbie and handles much like the original article, thick neck and all.
In one the middle is a Heritage Cherry SG Standard Bass with TB-Plus PUPS and much thinner neck, sounds much more modern than an EB-3
The Fireburst is a SG Supreme Bass, basically the same animal as the Standard but for its 50/50 Mahogany/Maple body which makes for a much more agressive high-end
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Thanks for that.
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I've owned a few short scale basses in my time, among them an EB-3, an EB-2 and an Eko Hofner copy which I still have. I hate to say it but the Eko has by far the best sound out of them, it has way more punch than either Gibson. I think it has single coil pickups on it which makes it bright and clear. The EB-2 was definitely the coolest one though and the first night I played it onstage through my SVT the drummer listened it and said "Now there's a real bass" haha! I've also noticed that the E tends to lack punch on short scale basses (except for the Eko), they always sound better up the neck too to my ears, nice and boomy.
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My two favorits are my Gretsch ThunderJet and my Gibson Triumph. They both really rock the joint and have a great low end!