This time is was both the Nashville and the Memphis facilities.
I'd post a link to an article but Safari keeps crashing on me.
Here's one version...........
http://guitarsquid.com/Latest/gibson-raided-by-the-feds-again.html
Here's another: http://www.tennessean.com/article/20110824/NEWS21/110824021/Federal-agents-raid-Gibson-Guitar-offices-Nashville
The Shavo bass was probably the last straw.
Seriously, if this is connected to the previous raid, you have to wonder if it's an overzealous attempt to pin something on them. Or it could be about something completely different. Guess we'll find out before too long.
Dear Lord, the "comments" section on that story... :rolleyes:
Of course, that kind of garbage is EXACTLY what I would expect from a Gannett property (speaking as a former employee). ...and by that I mean that most of those "extreme" political views were most likely posted BY employees as a means to drum up webpage hits. They've been caught doing it before.
This doesn't happen to Ric and it doesn't happen to Fender. But it has happened to Gibson again.
I'm no tree hugger, but after the first raid this is simply sloppy compliance and monitoring work by the company. What kind of law firm do they have? :rolleyes: If you've been raided once and have an investigation running against you, you do your best to prevent it from happening again. You introduce new control mechanisms, have a workable whistleblower policy and co-operate with the authorities rectally if necessary. You don't give them the slightest doubt that raiding you again is unneccessary. What an abysmal failure of Gibson's legal inhouse team and whoever is their law firm (I recommend ritual suicide for them all). Utterly unprofessional. From a legal compliance point of view this is as inane as having shipped basses without trussrods. :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[
I'm rubbing my eyes. How is this company being run? If this was a Clifford Chance client, the involved team would have a lot to answer to. A frigging disaster, no less.
But no charges were ever filed as a result of the 2009 raids, so I wonder what gives here?
As a member of Global Green it seems to me the company wouldn't risk violating the Lacey Act by doing something so stupid is purposely importing offending wood. And to do it enough times to warrant two large raids by the feds? It's too high profile. There must be something else.
Quote from: Denis on August 25, 2011, 06:03:32 AM
There must be something else.
Some Fed REALLY pissed off about the FireTurd?
Quote from: dadagoboi on August 25, 2011, 06:06:38 AM
Some Fed REALLY pissed off about the FireTurd?
Change you can BELIEVE in! :o ;D :mrgreen:
Another story, this time from Memphis: http://www.wreg.com/news/wreg-gibson-raid-5,0,7022415.story According to this story, they turned away delivery trucks and loaded evidence into a U-Haul truck, so they must have taken quite a bit.
Sounds like overkill to me. But at least now you can say you have a pre-Fish & Wildlife Gibson.
http://www.newschannel5.com/story/15327093/federal-agents-raid-gibson-facilities-in-nashville-memphis
Another article...
What is the FireTurd?
Quote from: dadagoboi on August 25, 2011, 06:06:38 AM
Some Fed REALLY pissed off about the FireTurd?
I heard they were there to arrest the design engineer responsible for the Reverse Flying V they sold in 2007.
I bet its a conspiracy by a group of drummers :mrgreen:
Quote from: Spiritbass on August 25, 2011, 03:36:07 PM
What is the FireTurd?
The ridiculous Gibson Firebird X guitar (http://www2.gibson.com/Products/Electric-Guitars/Firebird/Gibson-USA/Firebird-X.aspx). Introduced by Henry J. last fall at a big Apple-style product release, for which he was ridiculed. It hasn't actually made it to release yet.
Quote from: Spiritbass on August 25, 2011, 03:36:07 PM
What is the FireTurd?
The Firebird X guitar takes the guitar instrument to new heights of functionality and usability for the professional player and the aspiring enthusiast. Using technologies that did not exist even a few years ago, we have enhanced an already outstanding instrument to unbelievable performance and creative heights. The enhancements touch every aspect of the instrument, from using improved manufacturing technologies to the latest electronics. Firebird X is like the world's best street legal sports car in looks, feel and performance.
No I'm not trying to parody Gibson. This is verbatim from their website :rolleyes:
I think they need a new marketing company as well as a new legal team.
I haven't read the entire write-up on the Firebird, but it looks to me like Gibson at least deserves some credit for trying to push the guitar past the last 40 years of copycat bodies and revisiting the models made since the 50's. I think they grossly overdid it, but there seem to be some good ideas in the mega-dump of stuff they packed in.
I was poking around on the Gibson board & this link was posted...................
http://www.gibson.com/absolutenm/templates/FeatureTemplatePressRelease.aspx?articleid=1340&zoneid=6
Quote from: Grog on August 25, 2011, 08:10:24 PM
I was poking around on the Gibson board & this link was posted...................
http://www.gibson.com/absolutenm/templates/FeatureTemplatePressRelease.aspx?articleid=1340&zoneid=6
Technicalities like that can make you crazy. Sounds like some prosecutor has a grudge against Gibson. (Maybe related to the idiot that won't stop wasting federal money chasing Roger Clemens?)
"The Federal Department of Justice in Washington, D.C. has suggested that the use of wood from India that is not finished by Indian workers is illegal, not because of U.S. law, but because it is the Justice Department's interpretation of a law in India. (If the same wood from the same tree was finished by Indian workers, the material would be legal.) This action was taken without the support and consent of the government in India."
I guess if the govt agency hasn't laid charges then they ar just supposing but this seems to be the crux of it.
Our government is a total waste of money. We are funding insanity on a daily basis.
Henry J interview.
http://video.gibson.com.s3.amazonaws.com/Events/press-release.html (http://video.gibson.com.s3.amazonaws.com/Events/press-release.html)
Thats 30 mins of my life I'll never get back. still, it was interesting.
Harassment, pure and simple.
In the army that sort of behavior is called "chickenshit". No value, no purpose, just bs.
Why aren't other guitar companies raided? I'm not impressed. Seems like Gibson used rosewood and ebony whose legality is at least up to discussion. If you do that you should have an arrangement in place to solve the disagreement with the agency legally and without too much smoke and noise. Or did they just say "That is how we see it, the wood is legal, shove your doubts, and we'll be using it accordingly and shipping it as part of our guitars, yours sincerely, stupid agency!"? Well, don't act surprised if you're raided then.
A PR disaster. And unlike other guitar companies Gibson seems to be unable to procure wood of 100% waterproof legitimacy and convince authorities of it.
Gibson has said all along that they are cooperating fully, so I doubt that they just told a federal agency to shove it.
If what they are saying in the press release is accurate, then you have to wonder why others haven't been raided. The feds think Indian law says wood from India has to be finished by workers in India? Look at all the Indian rosewood fingerboard blanks that their government allows to be export. Sounds like another case of federal prosecutorial abuse to me.
If you cooperate fully you don't get raided, simple as that. And they spare you the embarrassment of locking your workforce out. By compliance standards, this was not handled well. A worldwide conglomerate like Siemens paid a 1.6 billion (!) Dollar fine for its global bribery practices to the SEC after a two year long investigation by a law firm chosen by the SEC (and paid for by Siemens) and was not raided like that. And you are telling me that Gibson's attorneys were not able to avoid this about some rosewood and ebony from India? Dilletants.
The first raid might have been bad luck and out of the blue, but the second one cannot be explained other than through gross mismanagement of the case. As I said, if this had happened here, heads would be rolling. And it doesn't matter whether the agency is right or wrong (I have no opinion on that), that is a matter for the courts to resolve. But you don't let a government agency even get near a situation where it feels that it must raid you.
I agree, Uwe. Whatever the situation, Gibson's lawyer's definitely aren't the A team.
Quote from: uwe on August 26, 2011, 09:36:17 AM
If you cooperate fully you don't get raided, simple as that. And they spare you the embarrassment of locking your workforce out. By compliance standards, this was not handled well. A worldwide conglomerate like Siemens paid a 1.6 billion (!) Dollar fine for its global bribery practices to the SEC after a two year long investigation by a law firm chosen by the SEC (and paid for by Siemens) and was not raided like that. And you are telling me that Gibson's attorneys were not able to avoid this about some rosewood and ebony from India? Dilletants.
The first raid might have been bad luck and out of the blue, but the second one cannot be explained other than through gross mismanagement of the case. As I said, if this had happened here, heads would be rolling. And it doesn't matter whether the agency is right or wrong (I have no opinion on that), that is a matter for the courts to resolve. But you don't let a government agency even get near a situation where it feels that it must raid you.
I have no way of knowing the quality of their legal team handling this, but I can't say that the raid proves they have mismanaged things. You're naive about what goes on here. In a country where you see SWAT teams with surplus high powered military equipment conducting raids for alleged white collar crimes as minor as an illegal poker game, this could have been a lot worse.
You can't even have good old-fashioned fun with a chamber maid where you guys live either!
And then, within a couple of weeks - abracadabra! -, credible witnesses with a spotless history turn into notoriously unreliable liars who can't be trusted to testify and have friends in jail. Or maybe the logic is that it's alright to rape those, whatever ... :rolleyes:
I think the US legal system suffers from its overly adverserial nature, the focus on "winning the case" and the fact that great parts of the judicial personnel face elections. A prosecutor shouldn't be judged by how many cases he "loses" or "wins", but by how often he has helped achieve a just result that can live up to scrutiny years later. And our Western system is built on the premise that we rather let 100 culprits go free rather than convict one innocent (wo)man. Once you think that convicting a few innocents is ok just as long as that hikes the share of guilty ones convicted, you're on a downward spiral.
maybe Eric Holder is a diehard fender guy ???
In the U.S. by and large you get the justice you pay for. I don't remember seeing any of the Wall Street Biggies getting raided. Those guys definitely have all their ducks in a row.
...maybe Gibson IS an example along the lines of what Dave has to say, I doubt their representation is up to the Level of Lehman Bros.
I think getting wood is more important than where you it. :o
Uwe's helpful amendment: "than where you put it" you meant to write perhaps?!
The rising laissez faire tendencies of this forum are strictly a matter of personal preference.
Quote from: uwe on August 26, 2011, 10:29:38 AM
I think the US legal system suffers from its overly adverserial nature, the focus on "winning the case" and the fact that great parts of the judicial personnel face elections. A prosecutor shouldn't be judged by how many cases he "loses" or "wins", but by how often he has helped achieve a just result that can live up to scrutiny years later. And our Western system is built on the premise that we rather let 100 culprits go free rather than convict one innocent (wo)man. Once you think that convicting a few innocents is ok just as long as that hikes the share of guilty ones convicted, you're on a downward spiral.
I haven't read a more accurate statement in years. I fully agree.
Quote from: Pilgrim on August 26, 2011, 01:28:59 PM
I haven't read a more accurate statement in years. I fully agree.
Elected or politically appointed judges also have a huge effect on the U.S. judicial system.
Quote from: drbassman on August 26, 2011, 11:08:28 AM
I think getting wood is more important than where you it. :o
Uwe's helpful amendment: "than where you put it" you meant to write perhaps?!
The rising laissez faire tendencies of this forum are strictly a matter of personal preference.
You still have to "get" it before you can "put" it anywhere!!! 8)
Quote from: uwe on August 25, 2011, 04:19:09 AM
this is as inane as having shipped basses without trussrods. :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[
I'm rubbing my eyes. How is this company being run? If this was a Clifford Chance client, the involved team would have a lot to answer to. A frigging disaster, no less.
A bit off topic but I have to ask, is this really true? (shipped basses without trussrods)
This (http://ampworkshop.yuku.com/sreply/34252/Conservation-gone-mad) is the best and most clear explanation of what went down I have found.
For grins let's consider Gibson bought 'stolen' wood. Does that mean they get to keep it because they didn't steal it, didn't know it was stolen and had a forged (not by them) bill of sale to prove it? At the very least the material would be confiscated and returned to its rightful owner.
I'm referencing 'alleged forged documents' supposedly proving the wood is legal.
There's a legislator in India who just agreed to end an 11 day hunger strike protesting the widely acknowledged massive corruption in that country's government. Do we choose to take that government's word over AMERICAN officials who are probably more honest than Indian ones? You can check the statistics on which governments are the most corrupt, India is close to the top. Is it possible someone was paid to look the other way when that wood was exported? I would say, YES. Is it possible Gibson is innocent of any wrong doing? Certainly. It also seems highly possible laws were broken which resulted in Gibson possessing 'stolen property.'
All I'm saying is let's take into account all the middlemen, governments, documents and laws involved before making a judgement.
Henry's spouting about all the people he's hired in the last few years. Couldn't he hire a few more to actually make the fretboards he's going to put on his "Made in USA" stamped guitars?
Quote from: dadagoboi on August 27, 2011, 12:19:17 PMCouldn't he hire a few more to actually make the fretboards he's going to put on his "Made in USA" stamped guitars?
I think that actually may be the issue. From what I understand, the Lacey Act is being used because the fretboards were finished in the US and not India. I'm not defending Gibson, but two federal raids in two years with no charges filed would result in a serious lawsuit from most other industries; there's clearly more going on than what's being publicly banded about.
That's why I got so pissed about
The Tennessean's article; rather than do a little more in-depth investigation, the paper decided that anti-Obama politcal rhetoric in its comments section would generate more interest than the actual story. Seriously; I have ZERO doubts those comments came from employees. Google "Moms Like Me," "Gannett," and "blowjob tips" together sometimes.
Even a completed fretboard is difficult to describe as a finished product, what's its use other than as a non removable component? It's possible it can't be exported, period, under Indian laws. I would damn sure narrowly define "product"
in a law meant to protect jobs.
Yeah, journalism is shoddy and shallow these days but it's a pretty good reflection of what Americans want in their media.
Corruption or not, we don't know what India's laws actually say. All we have is a US Fish & Wildlife interpretation.
And what about all the other guitar makers that offer Indian rosewood fretboards. What about suppliers? I see that Allied Lutherie, Allen Guitars and Luthier's Mercantile all specifically offer Indian rosewood blanks. It doesn't make sense that Gibson would be targeted for this.
Quote from: Dave W on August 27, 2011, 10:39:07 PM
It doesn't make sense that Gibson would be targeted for this.
Exactly
The WSJ has now picked up on it: Guitar Frets: Environmental Enforcement Leaves Musicians in Fear (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904787404576530520471223268.html)
Note the story about the piano dealer in the Atlanta area. Serious business.
I'll let you know when the Fish and Wildlife Agency guys come over to raid my office demanding documentation for the age of my 20/20 ...
(http://lavatoryreader.typepad.com/.a/6a0120a58872a6970b012876b938e6970c-800wi)
this is so typical of the goverment to put aside more serious concerns for some crap like this. two dozen feds show up at your piano store looking for old ivory? really! gun tottin' lawmen all over gibson's ass. i'm sure there are many layers to this story and everyone of them stinks like rotting fish.
More reporting and opinion from here and there:
The Music Salon (http://themusicsalon.blogspot.com/2011/08/guitar-wars.html)
Cato@Liberty (http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/whose-axe-made-your-axe-you-better-find-out/)
Nashville Business Journal (http://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/news/2011/08/25/gibson-guitar-maintains-innocence.html)
The Atlantic Wire (http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2011/08/gibson-defends-its-guitar-wood-after-federal-raids/41747/)
Fretboard Journal (http://www.fretboardjournal.com/features/magazine/guitar-lover%E2%80%99s-guide-cites-conservation-treaty)
Another WSJ story (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903895904576542942027859286.html?mod=WSJ_hp_mostpop_read) with a few more details about the wood and what "finished" might mean.
If the boards were any more "finished" than that, I wonder if it could possibly disqualify the guitars from being called "Made in USA" under the FTC's standards.
Quote from: Dave W on September 01, 2011, 11:23:11 PM
Another WSJ story (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903895904576542942027859286.html?mod=WSJ_hp_mostpop_read) with a few more details about the wood and what "finished" might mean.
If the boards were any more "finished" than that, I wonder if it could possibly disqualify the guitars from being called "Made in USA" under the FTC's standards.
From the above link:
Scott Paul, a Greenpeace official in New York responsible for forestry issues, said Gibson for years has done "great work" to promote better forestry practices. The question, he said, is whether Gibson did everything possible to avoid buying wood from dubious sources. "We have no idea," he said.
"Doing everything possible to avoid ..." is the catchphrase of modern day corporate compliance, like it or not. You won't believe how often I hear "we didn't know and it wasn't immediately apparent". No, not immediately, but if you had dug deeper it would. And companies today are expected to dig so much deeper than, say, 10 years ago. We live in the age of compliance.
Markets are markets and compliant behavior inevitably costs money. So if someone offers you "legal wood" at a cheaper price than other market participants can, that should already set off your alarm bells. There is no free lunch, certainly not in India. So what could have Gibson done that perhaps they didn't do? Regular control visits to their wood source, review of legal situation by outside counsel, direct contact to Indian authorities. And if the Indians had refused that? Easy. Change source. If they did all that, then indeed they are innocent. Did they?
And of course they could have passed the extra cost on to the market. Do you think that Gibson guitars that cost a hundred bucks more but feature a tag "Gibson stamp of eco-certification - only ebony and rosewood from Gibson-checked Indian providers was used to build this guitar, learn more at www.where-we-get-our-wood-from-at-Gibson.com" would sell less?
And don't tell me that is asking too much, if you work by necessity with a product that is toughly regulated, then you have to keep on your toes about it if you are not a mom & pop store without the necessary means. Foodstuff industries (have to) do it all the time.
Very well said, Uwe.
Quote from: uwe on September 02, 2011, 01:44:47 AM
Foodstuff industries (have to) do it all the time.
Man dont I know it! Even pet food gets tightly regulated by Dept of primary industries here.
Uwe, I work for a very well known German company producing products regulated by our EPA. We are required to post the country of origin on our packaging for these products. If the active ingredient come from Germany (or India or France, etc) is .05% with other ingredients comprising the remaining 99.95%, we are required to list the country of origin as Germany, even if the 99.95% other ingredients AND the bottles AND all the other packaging comes from the US.
I don't know if finished or semi finishing fretboards would change the "Made in..." status of an guitar but it could be taken as far as someone wanted to take it.
We don't know how far Gibson went to insure they were in compliance. I'm not going to assume they are at fault just because they were raided.
We don't know Indian law. We do know that there are US suppliers openly offering Indian rosewood fretboard blanks for sale to the public, one of them offering drop shipments of large quantities. So it seems that wood sawed into fretboard blanks must meet the "finished" requirement of Indian law, assuming that there actually is such a requirement.
This still smells like gross overkill to me.
Might as well mention the Elephant in the room. Henry is supposedly a Republican and anti Union guy. The conspiracy theory is he's being persecuted by the Obama Justice Dept...not that it's ever been done by prior administrations to someone they didn't like.
It is strange if there is some sort of regulation that you can order a complete Indian Rosewood neck (including shaft) made to your exact specifications from Warmoth among others.
How do you avoid a 500 lbs grizzly going overboard with you in its attack? By being very, very careful in your approach and not even provoking him. Injecting comments such as "this is really going overboard now" have proven to be relatively futile with these creatures once they have claws on you.
If Gibson had done any of the above things, I'm sure that would have initiated their press statement. Instead they argue lamely, "well, the Indian authorities never complained". As if. Nudge, nudge. And no, we don't know Indian law, but had Henry J. called me, I could have given him 10 high profile Indian law firms who could have checked all issues for him and told him whether it is safe to contract or not. It's called a legal opinion. (And if that opinion had been wrong, he would now have a nice insurance claim against the Indian law firm.) All he would have needed to do is pay them. That is a question of priorities and whether cheaper wood is more important to you than covering your butt effectively.
This is on my turf (for once) and there is no argument to the resident law firm partner: Gibson did not act professionally here measured against the standards international companies in developed economies have to observe in 2011. Simple as that. If they have a case to the contrary, I'd like to hear it rather than vague conspiracy theories
(http://www.mrmusicguitars.com/miva/graphics/00000001/obama.gif)
and how bad the government is all the time.
Quote from: uwe on September 02, 2011, 09:32:41 AM
...If they have a case to the contrary, I'd like to hear it rather than vague conspiracy theories
and how bad the government is all the time.
Yeah, but you don't live in the USA. That's all we have time for here. After all, fubawl season's starting! Go Gators.
I was unaware of the DOJ vendetta until yesterday when a guy I had just met enlightened me as to the REAL reason for the raid. Unfortunately the US does have a long history of such things.
Maybe the quality control was bad on the Gibby Mrs. O bought and Da Prez is pissed off he got a lemon?
http://hotair.com/archives/2011/08/29/michelle-obamas-gibson-guitar-gift/
Michelle Obama's Gibson Guitar Gift
Here's Techdirt's (http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110901/17314515772/gibson-ceo-us-government-wont-even-tell-us-what-law-they-think-weve-violated.shtml) take on it, including their views on unjustified seizure and forfeiture.
Quote from: dadagoboi on September 02, 2011, 09:44:28 AM
Yeah, but you don't live in the USA. That's all we have time for here. After all, fubawl season's starting! Go Gators.
I was unaware of the DOJ vendetta until yesterday when a guy I had just met enlightened me as to the REAL reason for the raid. Unfortunately the US does have a long history of such things.
The country is drowning in red ink and we spend money to go after Gibson and Roger Clemons? Oh yeah, and let's shut down those heinous lemonade stands all the kids keep trying to open on local street corners as well - I am sure that those hoodlums are not in compliance of
something :P
the fretboard on my new bass is made of amalgamated genuine USA cow plop ... thats my story and i'm sticking to it! ;D
seriously, this could have a lot of repercusions on the industry
Nothing surprises people more than laws actually being enforced.
Nothing upsets people more than laws actually being enforced...depending on which laws, who's enforcing them and who's getting caught.
Sinners all! I saw it in Henry J's guilty face.
Oh, woe to those who have erred and disobeyed. The Lord will first send great floods to cleanse them of evil, then the Firebird X will rise, with its entrails from hell, to punish those who did not hear, and, finally, the minions of Satan will strike down, taking all wood with them, for he who trusted false prophets shall find no refuge from the wrath of the Good.
On days like these, everything is divulged lucidly before my anointed gaze ...
IMHO it's a terrible treaty that does little or nothing to solve or ease the problems it's supposed to solve. But that's another story.
No one has shown any evidence that the laws of these countries have been violated. No one from either the Malaysian or Indian governments has claimed that their laws were violated. Gibson claims in both this and the 2009 raid, that they had all their paperwork in order and the full approval of both governments. Since other US companies are openly selling the same products, it's obvious to me that those governments are allowing the products to be legally exported according to their interpretation of their own laws.
Selective enforcement would be bad enough. This is thuggery and theft.
I don't agree with Henry about much, but I'm pleased that he's making lots of noise.
Quote from: Dave W on September 03, 2011, 08:08:41 AM
IMHO it's a terrible treaty that does little or nothing to solve or ease the problems it's supposed to solve. But that's another story.
No one has shown any evidence that the laws of these countries have been violated. No one from either the Malaysian or Indian governments has claimed that their laws were violated. Gibson claims in both this and the 2009 raid, that they had all their paperwork in order and the full approval of both governments. Since other US companies are openly selling the same products, it's obvious to me that those governments are allowing the products to be legally exported according to their interpretation of their own laws.
Selective enforcement would be bad enough. This is thuggery and theft.
I don't agree with Henry about much, but I'm pleased that he's making lots of noise.
just for grins and giggles i sent your post to fearless leader
Quote from: sniper on September 03, 2011, 11:12:33 AM
just for grins and giggles i sent your post to fearless leader
In Pottsylvania?
"Badenov, you numbskull!"
it will prolly get pitched, just a few weeks ago i congratulated him for being our first black prez and not getting assassinated and i thought he was looking a little thin and to consult Michelle about getting an extra scoop of potatoes.
We'll see who's innocent after the smoke clears. Often there's fire to go along. The fact that Ric, Ernie Ball or Fender were not raided tells me, no, not that they acted perhaps more diligently, but that they must all be part of some grand conspiracy aimed at bringing Gibson down. The MOSSAD must be involved too, they always are. Obama wants to eradicate Henry J. and his sorry outfit of a company off the face of this earth. The old mahogany hater.
Seriously: Possibly even worse than how Gibson's legal advisors must have handled this is the prep Henry J received from the PR Dep of Gibson when he stepped out on the streets in Nashville to pour insecure derision on the authorities for that raid. A complete F (as in fail) under state-of-the-art modern communication rules. Rather, someone should have scripted for him:
"Yesterday, federal authorities searched our facilities in ... and ... as part of an investigation under the ... Act. We regret that they did not seek our co-operation earlier in this matter and felt compelled to this measure. Gibson USA has nothing to hide and an excruciating compliance regime in place to ensure that we only employ in our production wood of 100% doubt-free environmental origin. It is not just something we do, it is something we believe in. If we erred or were misled - we are a business of "only people" -, we are the first who would like to know how and where to make sure it doesn't happen again. As I speak, a task force of inhouse and outside legal counsel is in contact with the authorities offering our unrestricted to ensure that the investigation can continue in full depth and unhampered as long as it takes, yet at the same time with the least interference to our production. Personally, this is not enough for me, we have initiated our own internal investigation. So far, nothing has been revealed that indicates Gibson employees acting anything less than conscientiously in the procurement of our woods, but it is early days. The investigation team, reporting to me, will file progress reports on our website as they occur."
Or something like that.
We'll see who's innocent after the smoke clears. Often there's fire to go along. The fact that Ric, Ernie Ball or Fender were not raided tells me, no, not that they acted perhaps more diligently, but that they must all be part of some grand conspiracy aimed at bringing Gibson down. The MOSSAD must be involved too, they always are. Obama wants to eradicate Henry J. and his sorry outfit of a company off the face of this earth. The old mahogany hater.
Seriously: Possibly even worse than how Gibson's legal advisors must have handled this is the prep Henry J received from the PR Dep of Gibson when he stepped out on the streets in Nashville to pour insecure derision on the authorities for that raid. A complete F (as in fail) under state-of-the-art modern communication rules. Rather, someone should have scripted for him:
"Yesterday, federal authorities searched our facilities in ... and ... as part of an investigation under the ... Act. We regret that they did not seek our co-operation earlier in this matter and felt compelled to this measure. Gibson USA has nothing to hide and an excruciating compliance regime in place to ensure that we only employ in our production wood of 100% doubt-free environmental origin. It is not just something we do, it is something we believe in. If we erred or were misled - we are a business of "only people" -, we are the first who would like to know how and where to make sure it doesn't happen again. As I speak, a task force of inhouse and outside legal counsel is in contact with the authorities offering our unrestricted to ensure that the investigation can continue in full depth and unhampered as long as it takes, yet at the same time with the least interference to our production. Personally, this is not enough for me, we have initiated our own internal investigation. So far, nothing has been revealed that indicates Gibson employees acting anything less than conscientiously in the procurement of our woods, but it is early days. The investigation team, reporting to me, will file progress reports on our website as they occur."
Or something like that.
Quote from: sniper on September 03, 2011, 12:19:15 PM
it will prolly get pitched, just a few weeks ago i congratulated him for being our first black prez and not getting assassinated and i thought he was looking a little thin and to consult Michelle about getting an extra scoop of potatoes.
Are you trying to get the Secret Service to investigate you? ???
Quote from: uwe on September 03, 2011, 05:59:49 PM
We'll see who's innocent after the smoke clears. Often there's fire to go along. The fact that Ric, Ernie Ball or Fender were not raided tells me, no, not that they acted perhaps more diligently, but that they must all be part of some grand conspiracy aimed at bringing Gibson down. The MOSSAD must be involved too, they always are. Obama wants to eradicate Henry J. and his sorry outfit of a company off the face of this earth. The old mahogany hater.
Seriously: Possibly even worse than how Gibson's legal advisors must have handled this is the prep Henry J received from the PR Dep of Gibson when he stepped out on the streets in Nashville to pour insecure derision on the authorities for that raid. A complete F (as in fail) under state-of-the-art modern communication rules. Rather, someone should have scripted for him:
"Yesterday, federal authorities searched our facilities in ... and ... as part of an investigation under the ... Act. We regret that they did not seek our co-operation earlier in this matter and felt compelled to this measure. Gibson USA has nothing to hide and an excruciating compliance regime in place to ensure that we only employ in our production wood of 100% doubt-free environmental origin. It is not just something we do, it is something we believe in. If we erred or were misled - we are a business of "only people" -, we are the first who would like to know how and where to make sure it doesn't happen again. As I speak, a task force of inhouse and outside legal counsel is in contact with the authorities offering our unrestricted to ensure that the investigation can continue in full depth and unhampered as long as it takes, yet at the same time with the least interference to our production. Personally, this is not enough for me, we have initiated our own internal investigation. So far, nothing has been revealed that indicates Gibson employees acting anything less than conscientiously in the procurement of our woods, but it is early days. The investigation team, reporting to me, will file progress reports on our website as they occur."
Or something like that.
That script and four bucks would get him a Starbucks coffee. I don't think you understand how asset seizure and/or forfeiture has been used in the US in recent years.
I don't think Gibson is being targeted by the government for who they are, or that any competitor reported them. Much more likely that mid or lower level bureaucrats who like to push people around have decided to make their own rules. It happens much more often than most people think. But you never hear about most other cases unless you read white collar law blogs. What makes this case different is that Henry J. is speaking out, and Gibson is an iconic company, so he's getting serious publicity. It may not help, but at this point I don't think it will hurt.
no, the FBI did that when i got my clearances and i think they checked me out again when i told them all to go to he__. they prolly would tell you i am borderline certifiable but a patriot.
this Gibson thing has me bugged. i am sure this type of thing happens more than we know for many reasons, most of which i would guess are political.
LOL - I rest my case. I forgot your inborn sense of revolt against authority. Lesser people pay taxes when they get a tax bill and that is that. But you guys cross-dress as indigenous people, raid someone elses ship, chuck foodstuff into the water and then start a war! You yanks are a fascinating bunch ..
Quote from: uwe on September 04, 2011, 03:32:29 AM
LOL - I rest my case. I forgot your inborn sense of revolt against authority. Lesser people pay taxes when they get a tax bill and that is that. But you guys cross-dress as indigenous people, raid someone elses ship, chuck foodstuff into the water and then start a war! You yanks are a fascinating bunch ..
That war like most others in US history (and every other history) was started by and for rich people with the collusion of the uneducated.
While it's fun to believe in politically motivated government conspiracies, I think this whole Gibson raid business started with an employee tip. Gibson workers seem to hate Henry more than we do.
http://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Gibson-Guitar-Reviews-E6869.htm
Quote from: Dave W on September 03, 2011, 09:48:12 PM
Are you trying to get the Secret Service to investigate you? ???
Nah, that could only happen in a dictatorship or a communist country. ;D
it's a sad day when people in the usa have to take pause before they write or say something in a public or private forum.
Quote from: nofi on September 04, 2011, 08:10:47 AM
it's a sad day when people in the usa have to take pause before they write or say something in a public or private forum.
Its a sad day when anyone anywhere has cause to do it.
There's nothing new in not being allowed to say that in a public forum. If it's sad now it's been a sad day for at least 100 years.
maybe so but the populace as a whole were not paranoid about what they may print online since 9/11.
( )*
* sorry old chap, can't comment, Official Secrets Act signatory ;)
Quote from: fur85 on September 04, 2011, 06:58:37 AM
While it's fun to believe in politically motivated government conspiracies, I think this whole Gibson raid business started with an employee tip. Gibson workers seem to hate Henry more than we do.
http://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Gibson-Guitar-Reviews-E6869.htm
Henry will howl like a stuck pig when the shop votes in the union :P Don't get me wrong, I absolutely loathe the union concept, but I believe that in instances like this the owners would be getting what they're asking for.
I seriously doubt this is partisan politcally motivated. I'd say it's a combination of an overzealous bureacrat who is being helped by a pissed-off current or former employee. Tennessee is a 'right to work' state and labor laws here were written by large corporations in the late 70's and early 80's, who rode Reagan's and Ray Blanton's (look him up) coattails to get a Democrat legislature to cow-tow to the false promise of jobs, similar to what is occurring on a national level for the past decade. That means almost no unions, companies are fairly free to abuse workers as they wish, and workers' rights are an outright communist assault on freedom. Henry is whining because he knows his argument makes hay in this damn state, which is so Republican it can't stand itself, in hopes that he can obscure the issue. As Uwe said, where there's smoke...
edit: rode, not road
Quote from: fur85 on September 04, 2011, 06:58:37 AM
While it's fun to believe in politically motivated government conspiracies, I think this whole Gibson raid business started with an employee tip. Gibson workers seem to hate Henry more than we do.
http://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Gibson-Guitar-Reviews-E6869.htm
I doubt it. Every big company has disgruntled employees, and sites like that one attract them. It's hardly a representative sample.
Gibson isn't claiming any conspiracy.
Quote from: Lightyear on September 04, 2011, 10:47:00 AM
Henry will howl like a stuck pig when the shop votes in the union :P Don't get me wrong, I absolutely loathe the union concept, but I believe that in instances like this the owners would be getting what they're asking for.
We have no idea what it's really like based on what some unhappy former employees say. As one of the positive reviews said, "If you don't like being accountable for your actions and performance then this will be a difficult place to work." Maybe he's right. Or not. We just don't know.
Quote from: fur85 on September 04, 2011, 08:53:22 AM
There's nothing new in not being allowed to say that in a public forum. If it's sad now it's been a sad day for at least 100 years.
All the way back to the Alien and Sedition Act of 1798.
Quote from: nofi on September 04, 2011, 09:12:59 AM
maybe so but the populace as a whole were not paranoid about what they may print online since 9/11.
True. And unfortunately they have good reason to be paranoid.
What's to loathe about a union concept? Wherever people share a common interest, they form a tribe, a village, a clan, a church, a political party, a cartel/trust, a nation. When workers unite, thereby being able to assert mutual goals more effectively, lots of people all of the sudden think that is somehow not right, yet it's the most natural thing to do unless you are Ayn Rand. Unions are no angels, they are interest groups just as employer industry groups are interest groups or the Tea Party. Since when is what is right for one side, wrong for the other?
I advise anybody to go to Red China and see how the absence of unions improves working conditions and really helps the single employee enforce his rights.
Quote from: uwe on September 04, 2011, 06:34:27 PM
What's to loathe about a union concept? Wherever people share a common interest, they form a tribe, a village, a clan, a church, a political party, a cartel/trust, a nation. When workers unite, thereby being able to assert mutual goals more effectively, lots of people all of the sudden think that is somehow not right, yet it's the most natural thing to do unless you are Ayn Rand. Unions are no angels, they are interest groups just as employer industry groups are interest groups or the Tea Party. Since when is what is right for one side, wrong for the other?
I advise anybody to go to Red China and see how the absence of unions improves working conditions and really helps the single employee enforce his rights.
In my opinion the unions are the major cause of the downfall of Detroit. So often they refused to back down and I frequently wondered if they'd rather see the Big Three go out of business and have all their members out of work than make a single concession.
Quote from: uwe on September 04, 2011, 06:34:27 PMSince when is what is right for one side, wrong for the other?
Welcome to US politics.
QuoteI advise anybody to go to Red China and see how the absence of unions improves working conditions and really helps the single employee enforce his rights.
That is exactly the goal of corporations in this country who have convinced a lot of people that capitalism is an unshakable pillar of democracy and the two are synonymous. One need only look to China to find that soundly disproven.
Quote from: Dave W on September 04, 2011, 05:48:06 PM
I doubt it. Every big company has disgruntled employees, and sites like that one attract them. It's hardly a representative sample.
True, these sites are not scientific and there is an attraction to the disgruntled. But, I have looked at these sites many times and you will find large outfits with very positve reviews. Take these comments with a grain of salt but usually there is some shred of truth to them.
Yep, China is a shining beacon of hope for all of the oppressed people of the world.
Yes, employee reviews on web sites like that should be taken with a grain of salt, but the volume of reviews for Gibson shows there may be a lot of disgruntled Gibson people. Gibson has 97 reviews while
Fender has 6 reviews:
http://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Fender-Musical-Instruments-Reviews-E5962.htm
Rickenbacker has only one review
http://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Rickenbacker-Reviews-E14882.htm
and no one has rated Ernie Ball
http://www.glassdoor.com/Overview/Working-at-Ernie-Ball-EI_IE14040.11,21.htm
Might mean nothing but if I were a manager at Gibson I'd want to know what's going on with that. Why do so many people want to talk about what it's like to work there? Why are the feds raiding the Gibson factory and not their competitors who use the same wood?
Quote from: Denis on September 04, 2011, 06:50:18 PM
In my opinion the unions are the major cause of the downfall of Detroit. So often they refused to back down and I frequently wondered if they'd rather see the Big Three go out of business and have all their members out of work than make a single concession.
The unions certainly played a role, but you can't blame solely them for what happened to the US auto industry in the last four decades. Your main issue was that you never produced for markets other than your own. And while the US is a huge market, the minute others got in to gnaw away for their share, you had nowhere else to go but gradually retreat. Go to any country in the world other than the US and perhaps Canada and Mexico, your immediate neighbors, and tell me how many American produced cars (not talking about cars produced by American-owned carmakers abroad) you see on the roads. That an uneconomic to the point of hilarious idisosyncracy like the Hummer is probably the most widespread model you see says a lot. Somehow, you guys failed to comprehend that the Chevrolet Impala was not what the (rest of the) world needed. And that it is kind of cumbersome in the old city streets of Rome or Paris.
Of course imperial size nuts and bolts contributed their share too! :P
It's not that American products fail to sell abroad per se as the longevity and success of Gibson, Fender and Levis show.
It really is a shame capitalism isn't a perfect system, but none exists. Viva la difference!
Quote from: fur85 on September 04, 2011, 10:40:17 PM
Yes, employee reviews on web sites like that should be taken with a grain of salt, but the volume of reviews for Gibson shows there may be a lot of disgruntled Gibson people. Gibson has 97 reviews while
Fender has 6 reviews:
http://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Fender-Musical-Instruments-Reviews-E5962.htm
Rickenbacker has only one review
http://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Rickenbacker-Reviews-E14882.htm
and no one has rated Ernie Ball
http://www.glassdoor.com/Overview/Working-at-Ernie-Ball-EI_IE14040.11,21.htm
Might mean nothing but if I were a manager at Gibson I'd want to know what's going on with that. Why do so many people want to talk about what it's like to work there? Why are the feds raiding the Gibson factory and not their competitors who use the same wood?
What other guitar companies are rated is irrelevant, IMHO, but since you mention it, keep in mind that Gibson has several times more employees in the US than the other three companies combined.
Some companies inspire either love and hate among employees, with not much in between. Gibson is apparently one of them.
The feds have apparently said that this came up in connection with another investigation in Texas, so I don't think it was an employee tip.
Quote from: drbassman on September 05, 2011, 07:31:49 AM
It really is a shame capitalism isn't a perfect system, but none exists. Viva la difference!
I'd really rather have more democracy and less capitalism.
well put. i can't add to that remark.
Quote from: Dave W on September 05, 2011, 07:54:12 AM
keep in mind that Gibson has several times more employees in the US than the other three companies combined.
The feds have apparently said that this came up in connection with another investigation in Texas, so I don't think it was an employee tip.
I was not aware of either of those facts. Thanks for the info Dave.
Quote
I'd really rather have more democracy and less capitalism.
Amen!