https://youtu.be/TGSgz0ML1RA
Sounds great. Nice to see a bass demo with flats and no slapping. Really good playing as well. Beautiful bass.
Great sound, and I really liked his playing on that short blues demo he added.
I agree, those felt mutes must have been replaced. The muting was aggressive enough that I can't believe the felt was very old - it would have packed down more and let the notes sound a bit longer. (Yes, it was too muted.)
How anyone could retain those intonation ruining felt mutes (on a bass already handicapped intonation-wise by unfortunate bridge placement) is beyond me. :rolleyes: My '64 has flat wounds too (D'Addario Chromes) and I like that tone, but the felt mutes had to go first thing.
Playing (i) muted (ii) flats with (iii) fingers (and not a pick) also seems a little too much cherry pie for me! He might as well have added a (iv) cushion over the fretboard and (v) hung a blanket over the speakers for his Mufflebird sound. :mrgreen:
(https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/b/studio-portrait-swat-officer-aiming-pistol-close-up-photo-silencer-pistol-barrel-hands-police-army-special-146914149.jpg)
I do think the headstock has been repaired, because it is finished black on the backside? And it seems to be a bit more shiny than the rest of the bass?
Beautiful bass, I have a set or original mutes, I have no intention of installing them ;D
He's a good player and thankfully did not slap on that bass, not my idea of tone tho, I would want to hear it with some Steel round like DR or SIT. I wondered about the dark finish on the back and neck as well, neck repair?
I dunno about you guys, but I can hear even by his demo playing that the intonation is way off.
And one look at the bridge saddles all the way upfront tells you all you need to know.
This bass was designed with flatwounds and mutes and IMHO that's how it should be demo'ed. I also don't like that 50s and 60s P basses are being demo'ed with clanky fresh rounds, and sound just like any random off-the-shelf Fender.
FWIW, I love the tone of this 'bird.
Quote from: uwe on June 16, 2021, 08:14:10 PM
And one look at the bridge saddles all the way upfront tells you all you need to know.
Time for a Badbird Bridge to wing its way over...? :mrgreen:
I think that thing sounds great.
Quote from: ilan on June 17, 2021, 05:13:00 AM
This bass was designed with flatwounds and mutes and IMHO that's how it should be demo'ed. I also don't like that 50s and 60s P basses are being demo'ed with clanky fresh rounds, and sound just like any random off-the-shelf Fender.
FWIW, I love the tone of this 'bird.
At least it should be demo'ed that way by a vintage dealer like Norman's. As Norman's former demo guy would say, play authentic! ;)
And yesterday this one came by:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LJ9MjgYgkI
Quote from: ilan on June 17, 2021, 05:13:00 AM
This bass was designed with flatwounds and mutes and IMHO that's how it should be demo'ed. I also don't like that 50s and 60s P basses are being demo'ed with clanky fresh rounds, and sound just like any random off-the-shelf Fender.
FWIW, I love the tone of this 'bird.
I'm sorry, my bad, I didn't know that a mispositioned bridge, steel rope-thick flats and intonation-defying as well as overtone-killing mutes were at the core of the TBird design! I always thought it might have something to do with a maho body, long scale, neck-thru construction and Ray Dietrich having a hand in the overall look, but hey what do I know! ;D
Man, how JAE devalued his Fender when he first strung it with roundwound Rotos! He should have better left it alone. And let's go back and rerecord all of Chris Squire's bass parts with a Ric properly equipped with company flats (4001s were "designed that way" after all) - more authentic really. :popcorn:
Nostalgia is an affliction. ;) I have flats on a lot of my basses and that's fine, but not to slavishly emulate some assumed authenticity, but for their sound characteristics.
Next thing we know, the guys demoing these basses have to wear original 50ies or 60ies Levi's jeans too - the full package. Bring out yer artefacts!
(https://i.gifer.com/embedded/download/LMao.gif)
Flats sound good on birds and Rics. McCartney is one obvious example. Felix also strung his T bird with flats and probably so did George Chambers. People like different things, no reason to get strung out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3RzRR1oVq0
I have no issues with using flats - on any bass - whatsoever! I have flats on Rics, Ibanez Icemans, Reverend, Italia, Washburn AB-20, Höfner, Framus, Guild, Fenders, Gibson TBirds, RDs, EBs, SBs, EB-750, Les Paul Basses, Rippers & Grabbers- you name it. None of them burp like that poor TBird does in the vid.
What I hear on the Norman's Rare Guitars Demo is not even a good flatwound sound - all burpy and the strings are dead (or maybe muted to death) - nor one that really mirrors how well a 60ies TBird with flats can sound. My 64 TB II with flats has a lot more snap and the tone is more focused.
Quote from: Chris P. on June 18, 2021, 02:14:24 AM
And yesterday this one came by:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LJ9MjgYgkI
I looked it up to see what it was selling for, nothing listed. It might have sold or too soon for listing. I still have mine with an early single coil bass pickup like the one used in the EB.
Quote from: uwe on June 18, 2021, 07:47:23 AM
I have no issues with using flats - on any bass - whatsoever! I have flats on Rics, Ibanez Icemans, Reverend, Italia, Washburn AB-20, Höfner, Framus, Guild, Fenders, Gibson TBirds, RDs, EBs, SBs, EB-750, Les Paul Basses, Rippers & Grabbers- you name it. None of them burp like that poor TBird does in the vid.
What I hear on the Norman's Rare Guitars Demo is not even a good flatwound sound - all burpy and the strings are dead (or maybe muted to death) - nor one that really mirrors how well a 60ies TBird with flats can sound. My 64 TB II with flats has a lot more snap and the tone is more focused.
Saying you were strung out was more of a pun because of the chambers bros song I posted. I didn't think the T-bird tone in the Norm's vid was all that bad but taking the mutes off would probably improve things. Interestingly, I thought I recognized that Chamber's bros bass line from somewhere. Starts about 40 seconds in.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHirGDEUcWo
Norman's is in business to sell vintage guitars and basses, not to monetize a YT channel. They typically demo an instrument as it comes in. They're still in business after all these years, so I suspect their approach is working.
Quote from: uwe on June 18, 2021, 04:12:10 AM
I'm sorry, my bad, I didn't know that a mispositioned bridge, steel rope-thick flats and intonation-defying as well as overtone-killing mutes were at the core of the TBird design! I always thought it might have something to do with a maho body, long scale, neck-thru construction and Ray Dietrich having a hand in the overall look, but hey what do I know! ;D
Man, how JAE devalued his Fender when he first strung it with roundwound Rotos! He should have better left it alone. And let's go back and rerecord all of Chris Squire's bass parts with a Ric properly equipped with company flats (4001s were "designed that way" after all) - more authentic really. :popcorn:
Nostalgia is an affliction. ;) I have flats on a lot of my basses and that's fine, but not to slavishly emulate some assumed authenticity, but for their sound characteristics.
Next thing we know, the guys demoing these basses have to wear original 50ies or 60ies Levi's jeans too - the full package. Bring out yer artefacts!
Fair enough. So you'd rather have that EB2 demo re-done with rounds?
BTW that's not "bass boost" but a bass-cut switch, right? Guys that work at Norm's should know this.
"BTW that's not "bass boost" but a bass-cut switch, right? Guys that work at Norm's should know this."
Yes, but I wouldn't even comment on that, I understood what he meant. We're all nerds and trainspotters here. Life goes on whether you call it a baritone switch, frequency filter or bass boost. Glasses are always both: half-full and half-empty.
"So you'd rather have that EB2 demo re-done with rounds?"
In the "rounds or flats"-string schism, I'm firmly in the "I don't care either way, just as long as there is four (or more) of them"-camp. My favorite string is really the one in the middle, which for hygiene and comfort reasons should probably be flat wound unless you are inclined to the rawer side of life.
(https://canary.contestimg.wish.com/api/webimage/5ab0e56e0548ea192d41efc2-large.jpg?cache_buster=4314d73c83c3333235fad9e48ca50c69)
But now that you mention it, with an EB-2 with the "bass boost" on, it doesn't matter whether you use (i) rounds, (ii) flats or (iii) even no strings at all. Nobody will be able to actually hear you in any case, and only a deaf snake will perhaps be able to feel a difference between all three ---> vibration sense. ;D
I'm one of those terrible people who don't give a damn whether a bass is 50 years old or fresh off the rack, I just want it to work, or whether the amp is solid state or tube - I just need to hear myself. 8)
Amps, speakers (I only know two kind, those who can survive me hitting all strings open on a bass with a pick at loud volume and those who can't, I recommend this as a quick test for any rig), vintage instruments, pick-up changes - isn't that something guitarists like to spend their time with? :mrgreen:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlBI-iqH9Ho
I've written this before: If you entered an early 60ies recording studio via a time machine with a 2021 400 bucks Yamaha bass and a 2021 500 bucks solid state practice amp, they would fall to their knees there, think you are some superior alien life form and faster than you can say "Gort klaatu barada niktu" happily throw all their vintage bass gear we find so desirable today into the garbage.
(https://img.cinemablend.com/filter:scale/quill/7/6/a/4/0/7/76a4073bb7a8bd77850a0a9b2a22e7ff0e64fb7e.jpg?mw=600)
Quote from: uwe on June 19, 2021, 06:23:38 PM
I've written this before: If you entered an early 60ies recording studio via a time machine with a 2021 400 bucks Yamaha bass and a 2021 500 bucks solid state practice amp, they would fall to their knees there, think you are some superior alien life form and faster than you can say "Gort klaatu barada niktu" happily throw all their vintage bass gear we find so desirable today into the garbage.
Maybe not throw them away, but they would surely be astonished at what's available today.
Quote from: Dave W on June 19, 2021, 11:00:17 PM
Maybe not throw them away, but they would surely be astonished at what's available today.
That is true, but an engineer would also be astonished if the yellow 2021 bass amp breaks down and they find out that not only are there no tubes to replace, but the circuit board cannot be replaced because it's more than three months old.
I'm ok with things that work and I'm no snob, but based on all the almost new gear (yes, new basses too) that comes to my workshop with electronic issues I'd say that not all changes are for the good.
I'm not the other extreme either - not everything new is better, I still have my Nokia unsmart phone. It escapes me what it does worse than the newest iPhone if your usage of a cell is restricted to what a telephone booth lumped on you back would do just as well. :)
My preference is slightly less than state of the art technology that is adequately roadtested and beyond teething problems. Like my Volvo V-90 or the Harley-Davidson Fat Bob.
Our IT department tells me that insisting to still use a Nokia doesn't even meet that already very low standard!
Quote from: uwe on June 19, 2021, 06:23:38 PM
with an EB-2 with the "bass boost" on, it doesn't matter whether you use (i) rounds, (ii) flats or (iii) even no strings at all. Nobody will be able to actually hear you in any case
So you say that a mudbucker-equipped bass is practically useless? I agree. Which is why my wonderful EB-0L has a single-coil guitar pickup neatly tucked under the huge cover, and I defy you to find a better sounding (and playing, actually) EB-0L. Would I recommend this to everyone? In a heartbeat. Should vintage dealers do their demo's with this hidden pickup? I don't think so.
BTW whenever I hear the word "reggae" in a bass demo, it's code for waaaay too muddy. I wish they'd stop bullshitting me with "reggae", everybody knows they all used Fender J's in Jamaica, not Sidewinder pickups.
Quote from: uwe on June 19, 2021, 06:23:38 PM
If you entered an early 60ies recording studio via a time machine with a 2021 400 bucks Yamaha bass and a 2021 500 bucks solid state practice amp, they would fall to their knees there, think you are some superior alien life form and faster than you can say "Gort klaatu barada niktu" happily throw all their vintage bass gear we find so desirable today into the garbage.
Not too sure about the $400 bass but oh, to go there with a tiny 500W Class D bass head!
Quote from: amptech on June 20, 2021, 01:04:43 AM
That is true, but an engineer would also be astonished if the yellow 2021 bass amp breaks down and they find out that not only are there no tubes to replace, but the circuit board cannot be replaced because it's more than three months old.
I'm ok with things that work and I'm no snob, but based on all the almost new gear (yes, new basses too) that comes to my workshop with electronic issues I'd say that not all changes are for the good.
No, it's not good when gear has to be discarded because a part is no longer available. Unfortunately that's not limited to amp circuit boards.
Agreed, making it impossible to repair stuff is crap. And not very in the spirit of sustainability at all. Wasteful.
"So you say that a mudbucker-equipped bass is practically useless?"
That's a harsh word. It's a specialty dish, hard to see having one everyday. What we can do today, play a mudbucker bass over a large rig that can actually handle and project the ooomph, is not really the historic mudbucker sound. That was often distorted (Jack Bruce, Jim Lea) or the baritone switch was activated (Andy Fraser), both for a more audible signal. Add how the bass combos back then really didn't offer the amount of sublows you need for an unfiltered mud-ooomph to be undistorted, yet audible and forceful. Recording that type of sound well was a challenge too, getting it heard well over the radio or a small record player even more.
The triumph of the electric bass in recording studios and live had a lot to do with the ease of getting it heard. Always an issue with an upright. The mudbucker didn't really follow that trend wholeheartedly, but kept one foot firmly planted in the past.
It can still be fun to play one as a bassist, though my experience certainly is that 95% of all band mates and sound engineers prefer something more akin to a Fender P sound and find true, unadulterated mud slightly irritating and a sonic chore. (I'm not talking about the sound of, say, a modern style SG Bass.)
Quote from: uwe on June 21, 2021, 03:51:25 AM
(I'm not talking about the sound of, say, a modern style SG Bass.)
That's an interesting point. Gibson, like Fender, are going to great lengths to make very faithful reissues with accurately spec'd pickups, but I don't think anyone has ever contemplated marketing a real mudbucker bass. And to think that it was designed buy the same guy who invented the perfect guitar humbucker...
Quote from: uwe on June 19, 2021, 06:23:38 PM
Yes, but I wouldn't even comment on that, I understood what he meant. We're all nerds and trainspotting crossdressers here.
(https://canary.contestimg.wish.com/api/webimage/5ab0e56e0548ea192d41efc2-large.jpg?cache_buster=4314d73c83c3333235fad9e48ca50c69)
]
Any idea where I can find those undies? Damn! :-*
There's nothing wrong with a Gibson mudbucker. They can be pretty versatile if you turn the volume knob down on the bass. Plenty of English bands made the single pickup EB-2 work fine and I don't think they all used the baritone switch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PclhNB8BiwI
This guy with some modern equipment gets a remarkable amount of tones from his EB-0.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsR3q_Mh3yY
Gibson won't reproduce the pickup for the same reason you can't get a single pickup Thunderbird or Firebird off the shelf. Plenty of interest from the consumer but no initiative from the manufacturer. If they did make them, I bet people would buy them.
That Animals performance is lovely!
Quote from: uwe on June 21, 2021, 05:01:32 PM
That Animals performance is lovely!
Yes, it is. The mudbucker played with a pick can be heard clearly enough. It shines in an uncluttered song like this.
Quote from: 4stringer77 on June 21, 2021, 11:05:16 AM
There's nothing wrong with a Gibson mudbucker. They can be pretty versatile if you turn the volume knob down on the bass.
Agree 100%
The band I'm in have started booking, and I have no plans using other basses than EB3's with muds and flats🙂
My main bass do have an overwound bridge mini humbucker, but then I can have the mud on 10. No trouble getting a great sound through my musicman stack or in the mixer. People love to hate stuff, but I think the mud is great if you just pay some attention when using it.
The bass line in that Animals tune is pretty compelling...it sounds clear and moves the tune along.
I saw Eric Burden here in Colorado in the early 2000's. He isn't a big guy, but he has a big voice.
With some spit and tweaking, you can even get an expensive Alembic to sound like an EB2!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCksJS-7Yq8
Don't get me started on Alembic.
I've never played one!
I have, and was both underwhelmed and outweighed. '79 Jazz/T-40-heavy, zillion impractical sounds that make you wish it had an "instant P" switch. But that's just my experience, and they're built like a tank, and the woodwork is really superb. Although I'd rather have my bass painted fire truck red and not looking like a coffee table. Again, just my own poor taste and tacky aesthetic preferences. Are we done discussing that lovely '64 TBird and are now talking about Alembics?
Back to business! First time I ever saw a T-bird was in 64. The bass picture was printed in a Hagstrom folder with the usual suspects of Gulds, Gibsons, Hagstroms, and Hofners. The T-bird looked fantastic! But my wallet couldn't afford it. So I got me a Hofner violin shape. Cost aboout $ 60.00. Which was affordable, as I just started working at a power plant. Doing boring work, but it got me almost where I wanted. A violin bass. But not the one I was a sucker for. A T-bird. Took me another twenty years before I realised the importance of making dreams come true. A couple of years the thrill was gone...
Don't get ME started on Alembics! I actually love them. I definitely do feel that the original style Series basses are an ergonomic nightmare. Why is the neck way out THERE? And what's all this body mass behind the tailpiece for? And yes, very heavy. But they've got a lot of newer designs that hang much better. Woodworking and finishing is spectacular, and their electronics are unmatched. A lot of people don't get the concept of a low pass filter, but once you figure it all out, they sound amazing. Those who turn everything up to 10 and engage every switch will have a tough time. :mrgreen:
Quote from: TBird1958 on June 21, 2021, 09:35:29 AM
Any idea where I can find those undies? Damn! :-*
Can of paint...? :mrgreen:
Quote from: uwe on June 23, 2021, 07:48:24 PM
I've never played one!
I've played two. Both were heavy. For all the fancy wood going on, the business is all in the electronics. They designed the wood out of the tone, so the preamp does all the work really.
Quote from: Alanko on June 26, 2021, 04:19:41 PM
I've played two. Both were heavy. For all the fancy wood going on, the business is all in the electronics. They designed the wood out of the tone, so the preamp does all the work really.
Yes
Quote from: Alanko on June 26, 2021, 04:19:41 PM
For all the fancy wood going on, the business is all in the electronics. They designed the wood out of the tone, so the preamp does all the work really.
I'll stick my neck out here and say that in my experience the wood used for the body makes very little difference to the overall tone. I have never met anyone who could tell, for example, an alder body bass (or guitar) from an ash one without looking. Fretboard material OTOH makes a noticeable difference.
Quote from: ilan on June 27, 2021, 09:29:43 AM
I'll stick my neck out here and say that in my experience the wood used for the body makes very little difference to the overall tone. I have never met anyone who could tell, for example, an alder body bass (or guitar) from an ash one without looking. Fretboard material OTOH makes a noticeable difference.
Let's have an Amen on that one.
Quote from: gearHed289 on June 24, 2021, 09:28:17 AM
. I definitely do feel that the original style Series basses are an ergonomic nightmare. Why is the neck way out THERE?
The only reason why I haven't bought a mint Series I when it was offered to me 25 years ago. It played and sounded like a dream, but I couldn't find my way around it physically. I could see myself buying one of the shorter-scale versions, though.
Quote from: ilan on June 27, 2021, 09:29:43 AM
I'll stick my neck out here and say that in my experience the wood used for the body makes very little difference to the overall tone. I have never met anyone who could tell, for example, an alder body bass (or guitar) from an ash one without looking. Fretboard material OTOH makes a noticeable difference.
I'm wood agnostic, if that is a thing? I definitely think my 4003 has a certain tone to it due to the maple, rather than just construction or pickups alone. If I play it unplugged and put one ear to the wood I can hear the Rickenbacker tone in there. Sort of scooped, hard sounding but with a solid fundamental.
What I meant about the Alembics I played was that they had consciously designed the wood out of the bass. They had designed them as though wood did impart a tone into the instrument and they were trying to avoid this at all costs. For example the bridges sat on inlaid blocks, so they sort of felt like they were vibrating in free space rather than the vibrations going down through the bridge and into the body.
Quote from: ilan on June 27, 2021, 09:29:43 AM
I'll stick my neck out here and say that in my experience the wood used for the body makes very little difference to the overall tone. I have never met anyone who could tell, for example, an alder body bass (or guitar) from an ash one without looking. Fretboard material OTOH makes a noticeable difference.
In that case,
lieber Ilan, I'll have to unceremoniously chop it off on the wooden block (pun intended!) of truth, much as I regret ...
I can give you three of my TBirds with zebra wood, maho and flamed maple wings, all with the same pups and from the same era and maker, all with maho/walnut neck-thru construction and centerpiece; they sound noticeably different (the zebra wood sounds middish, the flamed maple thuddy & dead and the maho best; it "sings" more than the others). And let's not even talk about how different my one-off korina Bird sounds (brighter than maho, touch of alder in its sound). Body wood makes a difference, as does neck wood. You're never gonna get a maho neck bass to sound snappy like a maple neck. Epi JCs don't sound like Gibson LP Sigs because they have a maho and not a maple neck. LP Sigs snap like a Fender, Epis don't.
Sheer heresy, tantamount to the crucifixion of deities! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
Quote from: Alanko on June 27, 2021, 01:58:29 PM
...
What I meant about the Alembics I played was that they had consciously designed the wood out of the bass. They had designed them as though wood did impart a tone into the instrument and they were trying to avoid this at all costs. For example the bridges sat on inlaid blocks, so they sort of felt like they were vibrating in free space rather than the vibrations going down through the bridge and into the body.
I read an interview with Mica Wickersham years ago, that's what she said. The body cores were mahogany, which they viewed as neutral sounding, the bridge design with the sunk inlaid base was to isolate the top wood from coloring the tone.
Quote from: uwe on June 27, 2021, 10:35:31 PM
You're never gonna get a maho neck bass to sound snappy like a maple neck. Epi JCs don't sound like Gibson LP Sigs because they have a maho and not a maple neck. LP Sigs snap like a Fender, Epis don't.
Agree on the neck. Necks, being long, thin and flexible, vibrate much more than bodies when a string is plucked. More here:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/281639288_Vibration_of_an_Electric_Bass_Guitar