1964 Thunderbird at Norman's

[uwe]

I have no issues with using flats - on any bass - whatsoever! I have flats on Rics, Ibanez Icemans, Reverend, Italia, Washburn AB-20, Höfner, Framus, Guild, Fenders, Gibson TBirds, RDs, EBs, SBs, EB-750, Les Paul Basses, Rippers & Grabbers- you name it. None of them burp like that poor TBird does in the vid.

What I hear on the Norman's Rare Guitars Demo is not even a good flatwound sound - all burpy and the strings are dead (or maybe muted to death) - nor one that really mirrors how well a 60ies TBird with flats can sound. My 64 TB II with flats has a lot more snap and the tone is more focused.

[Grog]

And yesterday this one came by:

I looked it up to see what it was selling for, nothing listed. It might have sold or too soon for listing. I still have mine with an early single coil bass pickup like the one used in the EB.

[4stringer77]

I have no issues with using flats - on any bass - whatsoever! I have flats on Rics, Ibanez Icemans, Reverend, Italia, Washburn AB-20, Höfner, Framus, Guild, Fenders, Gibson TBirds, RDs, EBs, SBs, EB-750, Les Paul Basses, Rippers & Grabbers- you name it. None of them burp like that poor TBird does in the vid.

What I hear on the Norman's Rare Guitars Demo is not even a good flatwound sound - all burpy and the strings are dead (or maybe muted to death) - nor one that really mirrors how well a 60ies TBird with flats can sound. My 64 TB II with flats has a lot more snap and the tone is more focused.

Saying you were strung out was more of a pun because of the chambers bros song I posted. I didn't think the T-bird tone in the Norm's vid was all that bad but taking the mutes off would probably improve things. Interestingly, I thought I recognized that Chamber's bros bass line from somewhere. Starts about 40 seconds in.

[Dave W]

Norman's is in business to sell vintage guitars and basses, not to monetize a YT channel. They typically demo an instrument as it comes in. They're still in business after all these years, so I suspect their approach is working.

[ilan]

I'm sorry, my bad, I didn't know that a mispositioned bridge, steel rope-thick flats and intonation-defying as well as overtone-killing mutes were at the core of the TBird design! I always thought it might have something to do with a maho body, long scale, neck-thru construction and Ray Dietrich having a hand in the overall look, but hey what do I know! 

Man, how JAE devalued his Fender when he first strung it with roundwound Rotos! He should have better left it alone. And let's go back and rerecord all of Chris Squire's bass parts with a Ric properly equipped with company flats (4001s were "designed that way" after all) - more authentic really. 

Nostalgia is an affliction. I have flats on a lot of my basses and that's fine, but not to slavishly emulate some assumed authenticity, but for their sound characteristics.

Next thing we know, the guys demoing these basses have to wear original 50ies or 60ies Levi's jeans too - the full package. Bring out yer artefacts!

Fair enough. So you'd rather have that EB2 demo re-done with rounds?

BTW that's not "bass boost" but a bass-cut switch, right? Guys that work at Norm's should know this.

[uwe]

"BTW that's not "bass boost" but a bass-cut switch, right? Guys that work at Norm's should know this."

Yes, but I wouldn't even comment on that, I understood what he meant. We're all nerds and trainspotters here. Life goes on whether you call it a baritone switch, frequency filter or bass boost. Glasses are always both: half-full and half-empty.

"So you'd rather have that EB2 demo re-done with rounds?"

In the "rounds or flats"-string schism, I'm firmly in the "I don't care either way, just as long as there is four (or more) of them"-camp. My favorite string is really the one in the middle, which for hygiene and comfort reasons should probably be flat wound unless you are inclined to the rawer side of life.



But now that you mention it, with an EB-2 with the "bass boost" on, it doesn't matter whether you use (i) rounds, (ii) flats or (iii) even no strings at all. Nobody will be able to actually hear you in any case, and only a deaf snake will perhaps be able to feel a difference between all three  ---> vibration sense. 

I'm one of those terrible people who don't give a damn whether a bass is 50 years old or fresh off the rack, I just want it to work, or whether the amp is solid state or tube - I just need to hear myself. 

Amps, speakers (I only know two kind, those who can survive me hitting all strings open on a bass with a pick at loud volume and those who can't, I recommend this as a quick test for any rig), vintage instruments, pick-up changes - isn't that something guitarists like to spend their time with? 



I've written this before: If you entered an early 60ies recording studio via a time machine with a 2021 400 bucks Yamaha bass and a 2021 500 bucks solid state practice amp, they would fall to their knees there, think you are some superior alien life form and faster than you can say "Gort klaatu barada niktu" happily throw all their vintage bass gear we find so desirable today into the garbage.

[Dave W]

I've written this before: If you entered an early 60ies recording studio via a time machine with a 2021 400 bucks Yamaha bass and a 2021 500 bucks solid state practice amp, they would fall to their knees there, think you are some superior alien life form and faster than you can say "Gort klaatu barada niktu" happily throw all their vintage bass gear we find so desirable today into the garbage.

Maybe not throw them away, but they would surely be astonished at what's available today.

[amptech]

Maybe not throw them away, but they would surely be astonished at what's available today.

That is true, but an engineer would also be astonished if the yellow 2021 bass amp breaks down and they find out that not only are there no tubes to replace, but the circuit board cannot be replaced because it's more than three months old.

I'm ok with things that work and I'm no snob, but based on all the almost new gear (yes, new basses too) that comes to my workshop with electronic issues I'd say that not all changes are for the good.

[uwe]

I'm not the other extreme either - not everything new is better, I still have my Nokia unsmart phone. It escapes me what it does worse than the newest iPhone if your usage of a cell is restricted to what a telephone booth lumped on you back would do just as well. 

My preference is slightly less than state of the art technology that is adequately roadtested and beyond teething problems. Like my Volvo V-90 or the Harley-Davidson Fat Bob.

Our IT department tells me that insisting to still use a Nokia doesn't even meet that already very low standard!

[ilan]

with an EB-2 with the "bass boost" on, it doesn't matter whether you use (i) rounds, (ii) flats or (iii) even no strings at all. Nobody will be able to actually hear you in any case

So you say that a mudbucker-equipped bass is practically useless? I agree. Which is why my wonderful EB-0L has a single-coil guitar pickup neatly tucked under the huge cover, and I defy you to find a better sounding (and playing, actually) EB-0L. Would I recommend this to everyone? In a heartbeat. Should vintage dealers do their demo's with this hidden pickup? I don't think so.

BTW whenever I hear the word "reggae" in a bass demo, it's code for waaaay too muddy. I wish they'd stop bullshitting me with "reggae", everybody knows they all used Fender J's in Jamaica, not Sidewinder pickups.

If you entered an early 60ies recording studio via a time machine with a 2021 400 bucks Yamaha bass and a 2021 500 bucks solid state practice amp, they would fall to their knees there, think you are some superior alien life form and faster than you can say "Gort klaatu barada niktu" happily throw all their vintage bass gear we find so desirable today into the garbage.

Not too sure about the $400 bass but oh, to go there with a tiny 500W Class D bass head!

[Dave W]

That is true, but an engineer would also be astonished if the yellow 2021 bass amp breaks down and they find out that not only are there no tubes to replace, but the circuit board cannot be replaced because it's more than three months old.

I'm ok with things that work and I'm no snob, but based on all the almost new gear (yes, new basses too) that comes to my workshop with electronic issues I'd say that not all changes are for the good.

No, it's not good when gear has to be discarded because a part is no longer available. Unfortunately that's not limited to amp circuit boards.

[uwe]

Agreed, making it impossible to repair stuff is crap. And not very in the spirit of sustainability at all. Wasteful.

"So you say that a mudbucker-equipped bass is practically useless?"

That's a harsh word. It's a specialty dish, hard to see having one everyday. What we can do today, play a mudbucker bass over a large rig that can actually handle and project the ooomph, is not really the historic mudbucker sound. That was often distorted  (Jack Bruce, Jim Lea) or the baritone switch was activated (Andy Fraser), both for a more audible signal. Add how the bass combos back then really didn't offer the amount of sublows you need for an unfiltered mud-ooomph to be undistorted, yet audible and forceful. Recording that type of sound well was a challenge too, getting it heard well over the radio or a small record player even more.

The triumph of the electric bass in recording studios and live had a lot to do with the ease of getting it heard. Always an issue with an upright. The mudbucker didn't really follow that trend wholeheartedly, but kept one foot firmly planted in the past.

It can still be fun to play one as a bassist, though my experience certainly is that 95% of all band mates and sound engineers prefer something more akin to a Fender P sound and find true, unadulterated mud slightly irritating and a sonic chore. (I'm not talking about the sound of, say, a modern style SG Bass.)

[ilan]

(I'm not talking about the sound of, say, a modern style SG Bass.)

That's an interesting point. Gibson, like Fender, are going to great lengths to make very faithful reissues with accurately spec'd pickups, but I don't think anyone has ever contemplated marketing a real mudbucker bass. And to think that it was designed buy the same guy who invented the perfect guitar humbucker...

[TBird1958]

Yes, but I wouldn't even comment on that, I understood what he meant. We're all nerds and trainspotting crossdressers here.


]

Any idea where I can find those undies? Damn! 

[4stringer77]

There's nothing wrong with a Gibson mudbucker. They can be pretty versatile if you turn the volume knob down on the bass. Plenty of English bands made the single pickup EB-2 work fine and I don't think they all used the baritone switch.


This guy with some modern equipment gets a remarkable amount of tones from his EB-0.


Gibson won't reproduce the pickup for the same reason you can't get a single pickup Thunderbird or Firebird off the shelf. Plenty of interest from the consumer but no initiative from the manufacturer. If they did make them, I bet people would buy them.