The Last Bass Outpost

... were that blatantly lifted off a guitar, namely the ES 320:


(http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/mHkAAOSwxYxUxsAP/s-l1600.jpg)


(http://www.warpdrivemusic.com/images/JohnM2011/957550.01.jpg)


Those thrifty Kalamazooians!

But the guitar seems to fetch quite a bit more.  :o

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1970-GIBSON-ES-320-VINTAGE-EXCELLENT-BEAUTIFUL-CHERRY-RED-FINISH/111583919951?_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140602152332%26meid%3Ddb119ffd773d4c1ca426b465288d3eb8%26pid%3D100011%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D1%26sd%3D172118132249

Very cool. Never saw that guitar before. I put an ebony board, Triumph guitar pups and an old schaller bridge.
I dusted it off and Im recreating it for a cousin. Control plate and  rings are made from Holly.
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d138/shadowcastaz/sb400-2me.jpg) (http://s34.photobucket.com/user/shadowcastaz/media/sb400-2me.jpg.html)
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d138/shadowcastaz/sb400_zps1nbday7d.jpg) (http://s34.photobucket.com/user/shadowcastaz/media/sb400_zps1nbday7d.jpg.html)
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d138/shadowcastaz/IMG_0955_zps9rxzpmf2.jpg) (http://s34.photobucket.com/user/shadowcastaz/media/IMG_0955_zps9rxzpmf2.jpg.html)

Nice one Shadow. 

I did not need the GAS I now feel after learning about the existence of the ES-320 though.  [shakes fist  in general direction of  the Eurozone]

edit: goddamn those aren't cheap, like at all.

But that was only to restore some symetry between our more recent posts, Jake!  :mrgreen:

I've always dug that metal control strip on the SB 300/400, the semi-circle plastic version of it on the SB 350/450 wasn't nearly as cool.

The brown one you posted looks so much nicer than the burst I am seeing on Reverb.com.  All Maple apparently. 

I have never actually liked a walnut finish on an instrument before.  I suspect that it 's got something to do with all that beautifully patina'd nickel hardware + lighter stain (possibly due to the maple) with more grain showing vs the SBs.

Actually the SB-300/400 basses were the bass companions to the SG-100/200/250 guitars. Same body, same pickups, same control panel (except for the SG-100 which was single pickup).

Here's an SB-200 (https://reverb.com/item/1809050-vintage-gibson-sg-200-1971-electric-guitar-with-original-case-cherry-finish-usa-made). IMHO the "reduced" price is wildly optimistic.

The ES-320s also used those controls but I don't think you'll find any actually selling at that price. They aren't that well respected compared to the ES-335 and other humbucker-equipped ES models. Those pickups sound much brighter in the semi-hollow body.

A friend of mine bought this at Willie's a number of years back....................

(http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/af119/Grog_03/S5000010_zpsphr9jqzg.jpg) (http://s999.photobucket.com/user/Grog_03/media/S5000010_zpsphr9jqzg.jpg.html)

See, that burst, to me, makes it look a bit cheap overall.  The walnut somehow, mysteriously (because it has no such affect on me on anything other than an ES style body), classes the girl up.  ... though I suppose I am very critical of bursts, they gotta be done right (the fade) or they look clownish to me.

My son has an ES-330 and swears by the sound of those dog ear single coils. Of course those Melody Maker single coils might sound quite different but one thing on the SB-300/400 basses they do not: sound thin. More like Ric or JB single coils and with surprising ooomph in the bass frequencies, yet a clear and pure, but not sterile tone overall.

I to like the guitar in the walnut finish. When I bought the gutted body it came with aluminum surrounds(no pup rout). I would have loved  nickel but the aluminum did not spark my interest except as a template. I was advised to get some jazz master pups , trim the edges and use my Gibson MM covers. I came across some Triumph guitar pups  and used them  with the Holly  plates. It cool to find a model guitar that is sort of forgotten . Thanx,M

The burst that Grog posted does look garish to me. Last one I saw locally (some years back) was a blond finish, it looked better. Remember, though, these were Gibson's economy models. Gibson didn't put as many hours into the finish.

These pickups in an ES-320 didn't sound like the P-90s in an ES-330. They were much brighter, almost chimey.

Here's a Kraut with a 320.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XupYi4oPsM4

Nice try Dave, but that does nothing to diminish my GAS.  Quite the opposite.  An ES that kinda slides a bit into Jazzmaster territory.  Those pups sound great in there.

Quote from: Granny Gremlin on March 20, 2016, 08:03:36 AM
Nice try Dave, but that does nothing to diminish my GAS.  Quite the opposite.  An ES that kinda slides a bit into Jazzmaster territory.  Those pups sound great in there.

I wasn't trying to diminish your GAS. My point was that they don't sound like P90s (or humbuckers) in that body. As he said, between jingle jangle and bluesy woozy. Pretty apt description. Not as chimey as a Rick 330/360, but not like a Gibson semihollow with P90s either. The Melody Maker type pickups don't sound nearly as brash in a semihollow.

I'll be very surprised if this one sells at anywhere near that price.

You did actually say they sound bad tho.

There's like 5 of them (various fins) between Reverb and Ebay right now  all listed at 2K or more.  Yeah, that's not conclusive.  There's no completed listings on ebay (a cherry one failed to sell at 1.7K last week) and Reverb's price guide (usually not bad) says 1.3-7k for blondes or bursts (so walnuts and cherries should be a tad less than that).  But if all the currently available ones remain listed at 2+k then that could change.

Quote from: Granny Gremlin on March 20, 2016, 05:37:37 PM
You did actually say they sound bad tho.

There's like 5 of them (various fins) between Reverb and Ebay right now  all listed at 2K or more.  Yeah, that's not conclusive.  There's no completed listings on ebay (a cherry one failed to sell at 1.7K last week) and Reverb's price guide (usually not bad) says 1.3-7k for blondes or bursts (so walnuts and cherries should be a tad less than that).  But if all the currently available ones remain listed at 2+k then that could change.

I probably said they sound like poop in an SB-300. I didn't say they sound bad in an ES-320. But the EB-320 isn't as well respected among Gibson players as the more expensive ES models. You can beg to differ, of course.

15 years ago the 320s were selling for about 600-800. It seems like a couple of years ago I saw a couple in the 1200 range. Maybe it was longer ago than that.

Quote from: Dave W on March 19, 2016, 12:39:03 PM
The burst that Grog posted does look garish to me. Last one I saw locally (some years back) was a blond finish, it looked better. Remember, though, these were Gibson's economy models. Gibson didn't put as many hours into the finish.

These pickups in an ES-320 didn't sound like the P-90s in an ES-330. They were much brighter, almost chimey.

Here's a Kraut with a 320.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XupYi4oPsM4

Lol, that Kraut is Ali Neander who went to my school (one or two classes my senior) and is a renowned session guitarist in my neck of the woods - the bass player of his then jazz rock outfit Hem was my bass teacher. Back in school, Ali adored Billy Gibbons (besides Jeff Beck, hence the jazz rock thing) and despised Blackmore (he's reversed his judgement on him over the decades). He's mostly known for his work with the Rodgau Monotones, local heroes in South Hesse who started as a - very good - cover band in the later 70ies and even had a nationwide rappish freak novelty hit in the 80ies, 'tis a small world:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3uAGhWdrxo

They're still at it too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwcFq8ENr6Y

Quote from: Granny Gremlin on March 18, 2016, 11:36:36 AM
The brown one you posted looks so much nicer than the burst I am seeing on Reverb.com.

A nice, evenly applied Clownburst!  :rolleyes:

(https://reverb-res.cloudinary.com/image/upload/s--4UZO-ko5--/a_exif,c_limit,f_auto,fl_progressive,h_620,q_75,w_620/v1452585494/avwyvnsdhbl6ue3gucmd.jpg)

Quote from: uwe on March 21, 2016, 08:36:50 AM
Lol, that Kraut is Ali Neander who went to my school (one or two classes my senior) and is a renowned session guitarist in my neck of the woods - the bass player of his then jazz rock outfit Hem was my bass teacher. Back in school, Ali adored Billy Gibbons (besides Jeff Beck, hence the jazz rock thing) and despised Blackmore (he's reversed his judgement on him over the decades). He's mostly known for his work with the Rodgau Monotones, local heroes in South Hesse who started as a - very good - cover band in the later 70ies and even had a nation wide rappish freak novelty hit in the 80ies, 'tis a small world:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3uAGhWdrxo

They're still at it too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwcFq8ENr6Y

LOL; they really picked the best frame to capture for the vid thumbnail on that first one - her face is priceless there.

Listenning to the second one I was like 'hey good job being, like,  the millionth person to rip off that riff from The Ocean" and then one of the first lines is something about Led  Zepplin and then  David Lee Roth is mentioned in the next one so I LOLed again, but then stopped and wondered how Uwe could possibly lay this before us, knowing the ribbing he's going to get.

Quote from: Alanko on March 21, 2016, 10:33:25 AM
A nice, evenly applied Clownburst!  :rolleyes:

Not a burst so much as a 2 tone.... or perhaps extra-wide faux binding. 

Applied by Stevie Wonder, using mustard and ketchup.

Jake, be gentle, it's a spoof song, sung in local South Hesse dialect and good-naturedly praising the alleged virtues of our region in an OTT way, comparing local minor celebrities to people like David Bowie.

Led Zeppelin? Never thought of it that way, but Ali was also a great Jimmy Page fan, so there might be a connection. The other guitarist in the band was/is a Duane Allman diehard and wrote in that vein too.

Quote from: uwe on March 22, 2016, 05:17:26 AM
Jake, be gentle, it's a spoof song, sung in local South Hesse dialect and good-naturedly praising the alleged virtues of our region in an OTT way, comparing local minor celebrities to people like David Bowie.

Led Zeppelin? Never thought of it that way, but Ali was also a great Jimmy Page fan, so there might be a connection. The other guitarist in the band was/is a Duane Allman diehard and wrote in that vein too.

Yeah I got that it was a bit of a spoof once they mentioned Roth.  Just really tired of hearing people riff on that riff, ya know.

Update . Im redoing this for my cousin who is a dead ringer  for Breaking Bads Walter White.
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d138/shadowcastaz/IMG_0984_zpsp04wzsdv.jpg) (http://s34.photobucket.com/user/shadowcastaz/media/IMG_0984_zpsp04wzsdv.jpg.html)
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d138/shadowcastaz/IMG_0986_zpswnx5tgkn.jpg) (http://s34.photobucket.com/user/shadowcastaz/media/IMG_0986_zpswnx5tgkn.jpg.html)
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d138/shadowcastaz/IMG_0987_zpssyi4shtb.jpg) (http://s34.photobucket.com/user/shadowcastaz/media/IMG_0987_zpssyi4shtb.jpg.html)

Is that why the bass is going blue?

 :mrgreen:
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d138/shadowcastaz/256b40e8-ccc8-4247-8274-6914172644a7_zpsghlimcq0.jpg) (http://s34.photobucket.com/user/shadowcastaz/media/256b40e8-ccc8-4247-8274-6914172644a7_zpsghlimcq0.jpg.html)
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d138/shadowcastaz/9c1ab58f-088a-4419-a550-afb330731761_zps5fi6fkrz.jpg) (http://s34.photobucket.com/user/shadowcastaz/media/9c1ab58f-088a-4419-a550-afb330731761_zps5fi6fkrz.jpg.html)

It needs some orange burst!!!

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v615/uwehornung/DCP_2333.jpg)

Quote from: uwe on April 12, 2016, 10:28:43 AM
It needs some orange burst!!!

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v615/uwehornung/DCP_2333.jpg)

What happened to the two-point bridge that bass had when I shipped it to you?

Wait, don't tell me, it took one look at the PumpkinGlo finish and refused to cooperate.  :P

That's still a Gibson bridge, so not sacrilege.

Jake, danke! Victory bassists have to stick together.

When the old man rants like this, it always hurts me deeply.

"PumpkinGlo"  :mrgreen: :) ;D 8)


Seriously, on a long scale bass with respective long scale string pull, the hallowed (in some heathen quarters) two-point bridge is an even more cursed device than usual. You might just as well glue the ends of the strings there.

Happy to oblige in the face of such obvious persecution and dissenfranchisement.... though I have to say the 2 point is a fine bridge saddle; Gibson just should have sprung for the slightly extra cost of a separate stop bar or tailpeice like on old TBirds or even  a trapeze (which is an easy  reversable mod I recommend to everyone on the regular; though in the case of  a long scale there may not be enough room, so it'd have to the TBird style stop bar, which is unfortnate).

Quote from: uwe on April 13, 2016, 06:35:10 AM
....

When the old man rants like this, it always hurts me deeply.

"PumpkinGlo"  :mrgreen: :) ;D 8)


Seriously, on a long scale bass with respective long scale string pull, the hallowed (in some heathen quarters) two-point bridge is an even more cursed device than usual. You might just as well glue the ends of the strings there.

Never had a problem with my EB-0L.

Those pics I've seen with the bridge body distorted into an arc must be photoshop jobs you commissioned.  :P

All my long scales are a two-point free zone I am happy to say!

Now get working on replacing all your three pointers with one of the alternatives that adjusts easily and doesn't look hideous.

I've only replaced one three point ever, on my Blackbird, just to see what it's like (ok, but not mandatory). No intention to repeat the exercise ever again - it might be down to having adjusted so many, but the three point is the bridge I feel most at home with, setting it up is totally undaunting for me. And I do like its look (no other bass has it) plus it's a comfortable hand rest for a pick player.

Still a better design than the original Telecaster bridge (guit or bass).

Never had a problem adjusting a 3 point either.

But  my SB400 is in black not chrome! :mrgreen:

Quote from: Granny Gremlin on April 14, 2016, 05:53:45 AM
Still a better design than the original Telecaster bridge (guit or bass).

Never had a problem adjusting a 3 point either.

Never had a problem with the original Tele bridge.  It's strongly preferred by most Tele players. You and Uwe are the lonely cheering section for the three-pointer.

There are better bridges, sure, but one thing that cannot be denied is that the 3 point is probably the best bridge for use on an archtop bass (because the bridge is, unlike a guitar, on the slope, vs the crest of the arch) especially ones with a larger neck join angles (LP etc).  It's charms are much less on a flat top, but it is still infinitely more stable than a 2 point and no less adjustable.  The saddles only being held on by string pressure is silly, but hardly a real issue.

Tele bridges are even less adjustable than a 3 point, and I know they have their fans anyway, but it is far from unanimous appreciation - look at how many replacement bridges are on the market (as well as Fender themselves changing the design over the years).  Frankly, until the Badbird II, I thought the available 3 point drop in replacements were even worse, but I am in the minority on that I know.

Most of the aftermarket Tele replacement bridges are also 3-saddle.

Not so sure about "most," but yeah there are some (many even).  But at least they're sturdier/heavier - 3/2 (guit/bass) saddles was only 1 issue, not the whole story. 

Seriously, this is pathetic:

(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/Njk0WDEwMjI=/z/OZwAAOSweW5VYNNX/$_1.JPG)

And yet some masochists still love them.

The overwhelming majority are 3-saddle. Easy to adjust close enough for a tempered instrument. I find the original style easier to adjust than the ones with compensated saddles. Never had a problem with the 2-saddle on my old Tele Bass II either.

Two strings pressing down on one saddle produces a tone different enough that most players can hear the difference. YMMV.

Quote from: Dave W on April 14, 2016, 12:46:05 PM
Never had a problem with the original Tele bridge.  It's strongly preferred by most Tele players. You and Uwe are the lonely cheering section for the three-pointer.

Lies! There's the model trainer with the knee high boots too so we're already an Unholy Trinity! Besides, historic interpretation demands it, it sez in that one document of that One Nation under Canada:



Death to false bridges!

(http://manowar.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Band_tour-2014-spring_5047-med-640x420.jpg)

I don't know a single Tele player who prefers the old style bridge.  I know these people exist, due to the product offerings.  As such I must dispute your wonton use of the word 'most.'  The rules of rhetoric dictate that use of this word requires that you have actually studied the issue (beyond personal experience; a representative sample your acquaintances are not)  or that you be citing such a study; strictly speaking the most you can get away with here is 'many,' and with such a statement as that, I would not argue.

Further, as we all know, popularity has absolutely no causal relationship with quality or more specifically in this case, functional perfection. 

The fact is that even Fender decided improvement was warranted (never mind all the third parties), and it certainly didn't save them any money to add complexity to the part. ... Just like Gibson realised the 2 point was going to tilt, in some cases, under string pressure and added a 3rd post to stop that.  The bit that perplexes me is how they weren't able to anticipate this and didn't, at the risk of sounding like a broken record, just use a separate tailpiece; a cheap part that hey already had in stock for TBirds.

For those who insist on using the two saddle bridge, there is a nice solution on the market:

(http://www.grguitars.com/bass%20bridge%203356.jpg)

Quote from: Granny Gremlin on April 15, 2016, 07:30:43 AM
I don't know a single Tele player who prefers the old style bridge.  I know these people exist, due to the product offerings.  As such I must dispute your wonton use of the word 'most.'  The rules of rhetoric dictate that use of this word requires that you have actually studied the issue (beyond personal experience; a representative sample your acquaintances are not)  or that you be citing such a study; strictly speaking the most you can get away with here is 'many,' and with such a statement as that, I would not argue.

Further, as we all know, popularity has absolutely no causal relationship with quality or more specifically in this case, functional perfection. 

The fact is that even Fender decided improvement was warranted (never mind all the third parties), and it certainly didn't save them any money to add complexity to the part. ... Just like Gibson realised the 2 point was going to tilt, in some cases, under string pressure and added a 3rd post to stop that.  The bit that perplexes me is how they weren't able to anticipate this and didn't, at the risk of sounding like a broken record, just use a separate tailpiece; a cheap part that hey already had in stock for TBirds.

Good lord, Jake. I'm not just talking about a few people I know.

Spend a few months at TDPRI. In the main section subforums where you can see what people buy and post pictures of. You'll see a lot more 3-saddle bridges than 6-saddle. And over time you'll also see 5-10 times as many threads asking what vintage-style 3-saddle bridge will replace the 6-saddle American Standard and Deluxe as you will threads asking what 6-saddle bridge is a drop in replacement for a vintage style. Look in the DIY section and see how many 3-saddle bridges are used in builds compared to 6-saddle. Look in the section where people post their own music and see what they use. Look where people post videos of well-known Tele players and see what they use.

There's a reason Fender has gone back to the 3-saddle in many lines, not just in the vintage reissues, but also in everything from the American Specials to the Squier Classic Vibes: most Tele players prefer it.

We're getting too far off topic here, so that's all I'll have to say about this.

"... As such I must dispute your wonton use...."

Dang. Dave is serving Chinese food now?   ;)

It probably doesn't count, but the two-saddle bridge on my Bronco intonates and plays very nicely. 

(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j306/apowell1/Electric%20Basses/Bronco%20Bass/PB070031.jpg)

The funny bit is where Dave argues that TDPRI is somehow representative of Tele players as a whole.

Quote from: Granny Gremlin on April 19, 2016, 07:04:58 AM
The funny bit is where Dave argues that TDPRI is somehow representative of Tele players as a whole.

Just can't give it a rest, eh?

I'm genuinely sorry it irritates you, Dave, but you have not given any indication as to how this bridge is better, but continue to put forth a tenuous argument of popularity = superior product, which you have explicitly argued against in other cases.  I know it doesn't win me many friends, but pointing this sort of thing out is my mission in life.  I believe it is far more important than many of us realise.

(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01660/Blues-Brothers_1660615c.jpg)

Quote from: Pilgrim on April 16, 2016, 09:15:02 AM
"... As such I must dispute your wonton use...."

Dang. Dave is serving Chinese food now?   ;)

LOL. Damn you autocorrect? 

And yeah, the 2 saddle bass version of the bridge is much less problematic than the 3 saddle geetar one - due in large part to the lack of a B string. ... I just don't see them as superior to  3 point in any way (tonally or functionally); and they definitely don't work on an archtop.

I didn't say that popularity makes it superior. The tone is different, whether it's better or worse is all a matter of personal preference. More Tele players prefer the vintage style bridge, whether it's for the tone, the look, or both. Maybe it's different in your neck of the woods. Not in the US.

Sometimes this forum reminds me of Japanese monster movies I devoured as a child:

(http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-qI6qnpCBSUU/Va0-eSfjyGI/AAAAAAABuGE/zvo2aA1mWmI/godzilla%252520game%252520cheats%252520and%252520secrets%25252001_thumb%25255B2%25255D.jpg?imgmax=800)

Any resemblance to real persons, living or dead, in- or outside of Minnesota or Toronto, is purely coincidental, but that is of course Jake on the right hand side, he has three heads (one is watchful to Germany and one to Russia, the middle one likes to have a drink and is concerned about veganism and homosexuality while the others do border patrol), one of those heads always strikes back when you think you are done with the other two. Godzilla, otoh, has a reputation for being flexible in argument and shunning away from being always adamant about things, hence it is also sometimes referred to as the "art of compromise-lizard". Minnesota does get cold in winter, so the reptiles there are hardy little critters.

(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR51TJUlH44btpAvFMMFZnFu17sAzeOaC-_Iw7DR7vEDY7knphOcjcEyg)
(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSbbVO2G7TTIiQpoN_hHW4MsC_FeqzO5PnZW05aHgYWeeLSEc-DYpvl)

LOL

Quote from: Dave W on April 15, 2016, 10:40:39 AMSpend a few months at TDPRI. In the main section subforums where you can see what people buy and post pictures of. You'll see a lot more 3-saddle bridges than 6-saddle.

Nah, not buying it. There was that thread on TDPRI where a bunch of good ol' boys were talking about dousing for water. You link them to studies that proved conclusively that in scientific tests dousing doesn't perform any better than random chance, and they still dispute that because some family member found a spring in their back yard using two lengths of wood or copper wire. The mentality over there, on the whole, is to favour empirical 'feel good' noise over hard scientific fact, and I lost a bit of respect for TDPRI on the whole as a result. There are one or two guys over there that know their shit, especially in the amp and pedal forums. There are also a shit-tonne of hicks who favour woolly feel-good bullshit over hard fact, so will cling doggedly to piss-poor designed, over priced and obsolete technology because it hits them a little bit more centrally in 'the feels'. They will also mire down threads endlessly with the same rhetoric. Honestly there are predatory businessmen that can market any old shit to this crowd as long as you appeal to that fuzzy 'just like Leo did it' and 'things were better in the olden days' mentality and dress it up a certain way.

An argument about which atrocious, obsolete 50+ year old bridge design of impaired functionality happens to be the shittest looks a lot like a race to the bottom, honestly. The 3-point bridge is only useful if you feel that 'yaw' is a useful attribute to have some degree of control over on a bass bridge and you enjoy chasing saddles across the floor when a string breaks. The Tele bridge is only useful if you feel that the last couple of inches of guitar string should be kept safely out of reach by a metal barrier and that intonation is just some scientific bullshit.  :mrgreen:

Come out from under your rocks.  :mrgreen: ;D :P

"The 3-point bridge is only useful if you feel that 'yaw' is a useful attribute to have some degree of control over on a bass bridge and you enjoy chasing saddles across the floor when a string breaks."

Brit villain, darned one!!!

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-EnQPE3iQAdM/T2xAvDq2RuI/AAAAAAAAG3k/rOvn0q48tjY/s1600/The_Patriot05.jpg)

I feel pretty vindicated actually.  I DO actually think that the 'yaw' (very apt I must say) is useful.  But yes the saddles not being secured is a silly oversight.

I had to look up what that meant. I thought it was something limey colloquial!

Quote from: Alanko on April 21, 2016, 05:56:24 AM
Nah, not buying it. There was that thread on TDPRI where a bunch of good ol' boys were talking about dousing for water. You link them to studies that proved conclusively that in scientific tests dousing doesn't perform any better than random chance, and they still dispute that because some family member found a spring in their back yard using two lengths of wood or copper wire. The mentality over there, on the whole, is to favour empirical 'feel good' noise over hard scientific fact, and I lost a bit of respect for TDPRI on the whole as a result. There are one or two guys over there that know their shit, especially in the amp and pedal forums. There are also a shit-tonne of hicks who favour woolly feel-good bullshit over hard fact, so will cling doggedly to piss-poor designed, over priced and obsolete technology because it hits them a little bit more centrally in 'the feels'. They will also mire down threads endlessly with the same rhetoric. Honestly there are predatory businessmen that can market any old shit to this crowd as long as you appeal to that fuzzy 'just like Leo did it' and 'things were better in the olden days' mentality and dress it up a certain way.

An argument about which atrocious, obsolete 50+ year old bridge design of impaired functionality happens to be the shittest looks a lot like a race to the bottom, honestly. The 3-point bridge is only useful if you feel that 'yaw' is a useful attribute to have some degree of control over on a bass bridge and you enjoy chasing saddles across the floor when a string breaks. The Tele bridge is only useful if you feel that the last couple of inches of guitar string should be kept safely out of reach by a metal barrier and that intonation is just some scientific bullshit.  :mrgreen:

Come out from under your rocks.  :mrgreen: ;D :P

You're completely missing the point of this discussion. It's not about whether or not it's a better design, or whether or not it sounds better, it's about what's preferred by more Tele players -- for whatever reason. And while you don't have to like it, it most certainly sounds different.

Dissing a bridge design that's usable can be fun, but it's obviously usable, just as the Gibson 3-point is usable.

Hear, hear!  :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

It also comes complete, not like the two point which would be usable if it came with that pull-avoiding stringholder we're alsways promised!

Quote from: Dave W on April 21, 2016, 06:13:12 PMDissing a bridge design that's usable can be fun, but it's obviously usable, just as the Gibson 3-point is usable.

A piece of string with a tin can on each end is usable... I still prefer an iPhone for communicating over distance.  :mrgreen:

I think the preferences of the bulk of Tele players on the Internet is pretty simple, and I don't think there is really much of a point for me to be missing here. They are staunch traditionalists, and on TDPRI the demographic is largely white men in the 50s and 60s (if the mugshot thread is anything to go by), and therefore unrepresentative of all Tele players.

One cannot say "Telecaster" without saying "Rick" and "Francis" too. So what bridges do they prefer? That decided the case for me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhnmPadl290

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hq0XEtY5V8

People always belittle how Quo are "always doing the same thing", but the truth of the matter is that I have never met a guitarist who could remotely emulate Parfitt's and Rossi's rhythm techniques (which are quite different, yet gel to the characteristic Quo rhythm wall of sound).

Granted, they have been, uhum, concentrating on it for so long they should be perfect at it by now!  :mrgreen:

Quote from: uwe on April 22, 2016, 06:30:18 AM
One cannot say "Telecaster" without saying "Rick" and "Francis" too. So what bridges do they prefer? That decided the case for me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhnmPadl290

LOL.  A bud of mine had me do the exact same mod to his Tele Custom when we were teenagers.  I had no idea it was a real Fender (the neck had been replaced with an el Degas - rather nice flame to it too) until he told me after.  The one diff was that it wasn't string thru so we also put a stop bar on it.  I think I still have the offcut from the original ashtray in my parts drawer.

Also love how the spot I randomly fast forwarded to to get a better view of the bridge was right in the middle of a riff that sounded like it was the source for the sample Apollo 440 used in Can't Stop the Rock.  I watched a bit more and damn, he does have some good chops.  A little too blues focused with the stereotypical turnarounds, but other than that he's doing some cool/fun shit, and more importabntly, demonstrating a great economy of movement.

I have no particular investment in this, but my general take is that when I play an instrument with a history like a Tele, I kind of like to keep it in an original configuration. If that configuration has a major shortcoming (which the two-saddle bridge on my Bronco is not), then I'll probably correct it.  I call that an upgrade, because it's fixing a problem.

I also have an inclination to believe that the manufacturer built the instrument in a particular way to have a particular sound. Therefore, unless I buy an instrument with the express intent of modifying it for fun (like the Bronco) I usually leave it as built. I figure if I want to hear it sound the way it was designed to sound, leaving it as built is the best way to achieve that.

Of course, being one of "those", I do usually install flatwound Labellas.  Perhaps that tends to defeat idea #2.

Yeah, that's fair, but, we know for a fact that not all instruments are made the way they are made to saound a certain way - some design decisions and hardware choices are purely cost driven.  Sometimes, not always.

Quote from: Granny Gremlin on April 22, 2016, 09:37:34 AM
Yeah, that's fair, but, we know for a fact that not all instruments are made the way they are made to sound a certain way - some design decisions and hardware choices are purely cost driven.  Sometimes, not always.

Quite true! Definitely true with US vs. import electronics, ferinstance.

Quote from: Alanko on April 22, 2016, 05:20:28 AM
A piece of string with a tin can on each end is usable... I still prefer an iPhone for communicating over distance.  :mrgreen:

I think the preferences of the bulk of Tele players on the Internet is pretty simple, and I don't think there is really much of a point for me to be missing here. They are staunch traditionalists, and on TDPRI the demographic is largely white men in the 50s and 60s (if the mugshot thread is anything to go by), and therefore unrepresentative of all Tele players.

Now you're just trolling.

I get it. You don't like TDPRI.

Quote from: uwe on April 22, 2016, 06:30:18 AM
One cannot say "Telecaster" without saying "Rick" and "Francis" too. So what bridges do they prefer? That decided the case for me.

LOL! Mention Rick Parfitt or Francis Rossi to 100 random Americans and you'll be lucky to find one who knows either of them. They aren't that well known among Tele players either. And doesn't Parfitt's Tele have some sort of non-intonatable Gibson wraparound type bridge anyway?

3-saddle Tele bridge users, present and past, off the top of my head: Roy Nichols, Redd Volkaert, Bill Kirchen, Muddy Waters, Danny Gatton, Joe Strummer, Roy Buchanan, Albert Lee, Steve Cropper, Mike Bloomfield, Graham Coxon. 6-saddle bridge users: Keith Richards, James Burton, Albert Collins. Either/both: Bruce Springsteen. Not that numbers matter. Use what suits you.

But Dave, the sad status quo of your good countrymen's persistent ignorance of Status Quo is nothing to boast about!  8)

Quote from: Dave W on April 22, 2016, 12:32:38 PM
Now you're just trolling.

Not really. If I was trolling I would be arguing an opinion I don't personally hold simply to get a rise out of somebody. Not the case here.

I have argued the reason for why 1) I don't consider TDPRI to be a reliable data source and 2) why I don't consider it to be fully representative of Telecaster players as a whole, but simply a rather specific demographic of (mostly) elderly (mostly) white men with (mostly) the same music tastes. No trolling here.

And your list of Tele players cited here is no better:

3-saddle Tele bridge users, present and past, off the top of your head: Roy Nichols (dead), Redd Volkaert (elderly), Bill Kirchen (elderly), Muddy Waters (dead), Danny Gatton (dead), Joe Strummer (dead), Roy Buchanan (dead), Albert Lee (elderly), Steve Cropper (elderly), Mike Bloomfield  (dead), Graham Coxon (youngest dude here at 47). 6-saddle bridge users: Keith Richards (elderly), James Burton (elderly), Albert Collins (dead) . Either/both: Bruce Springsteen (elderly). Not that numbers matter. Use what suits you.

This was my original point, albeit argued from a different angle. If you are only going to cite examples only of dead or geriatric Tele players then you are going to get skewed results. Your youngest guy on the list is 47.

No Kele Okereke or Russell Lissack (Bloc Party), Jonathan Higgs (Everything Everything), Jason Simon (Dead Meadow), John 5, Jonny Greenwood etc....

No trolling.

status quo came to atlanta one time that i know of and that was in the mid 70's. i remember telecasters or cheapie epiphone guitars? they never cracked america because they were not very good and had bad songs. that simple. kind of like saxon but different.

Quote from: Alanko on April 22, 2016, 01:05:27 PM
Not really. If I was trolling I would be arguing an opinion I don't personally hold simply to get a rise out of somebody. Not the case here.

I have argued the reason for why 1) I don't consider TDPRI to be a reliable data source and 2) why I don't consider it to be fully representative of Telecaster players as a whole, but simply a rather specific demographic of (mostly) elderly (mostly) white men with (mostly) the same music tastes. No trolling here.

And your list of Tele players cited here is no better:

3-saddle Tele bridge users, present and past, off the top of your head: Roy Nichols (dead), Redd Volkaert (elderly), Bill Kirchen (elderly), Muddy Waters (dead), Danny Gatton (dead), Joe Strummer (dead), Roy Buchanan (dead), Albert Lee (elderly), Steve Cropper (elderly), Mike Bloomfield  (dead), Graham Coxon (youngest dude here at 47). 6-saddle bridge users: Keith Richards (elderly), James Burton (elderly), Albert Collins (dead) . Either/both: Bruce Springsteen (elderly). Not that numbers matter. Use what suits you.

This was my original point, albeit argued from a different angle. If you are only going to cite examples only of dead or geriatric Tele players then you are going to get skewed results. Your youngest guy on the list is 47.

No Kele Okereke or Russell Lissack (Bloc Party), Jonathan Higgs (Everything Everything), Jason Simon (Dead Meadow), John 5, Jonny Greenwood etc....

No trolling.

You're doing a damned good job of convincing me otherwise, especially since you're continuing to try to refute things that I've never claimed and arguing for the sake of arguing. Enough.

Quote from: Dave W on April 22, 2016, 12:32:38 PM
3-saddle Tele bridge users, present and past, off the top of my head: Roy Nichols, Redd Volkaert, Bill Kirchen, Muddy Waters, Danny Gatton, Joe Strummer, Roy Buchanan, Albert Lee, Steve Cropper, Mike Bloomfield, Graham Coxon. 6-saddle bridge users: Keith Richards, James Burton, Albert Collins. Either/both: Bruce Springsteen. Not that numbers matter. Use what suits you.

OK, now take out the ones who lived/worked in eras where the 3 saddle was the only option (I don't know them all, but Muddy Waters for sure - he did work later too, but by then he had his nice vintage Tele  for what, 20 years on the road,and would fall into the second category), and then the ones with vintage guitars who just couldn't be bothered for their patriotism/nosdtalgia/I've had this axe forever and I love her ( as I would suspect with Bruce Springsteen and am almost certain as regards Joe Strummer  - who is known as a complete agnostic when it comes to gear and tone) - are any of them on the record anywhere speaking on the topic? If not then what's on their vintage axe is meaningless.  If I had a vintage Tele with a 3 saddle I probably wouldn't change it either.... I just also wouldn't walk around like it was the key to my tone.

And just because it's doubly topical:

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_goYdint7r2g/TSO6M3PTojI/AAAAAAAAAqM/wcoyu08uNB0/s1600/Screen%2Bshot%2B2011-01-04%2Bat%2B7.23.15%2BPM.png)

(http://edsguitarlounge.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/hohner_the_prinz11.jpg)

A pro, working in an era where alternatives are available and is not religious about hardware and who went out of his way to avoid any sort of ashtray whatsoever.

I would also point to how no post-Fender Leo-designed Tele-like  instrument  has a 3 saddle bridge (as far as I have seen; mighta missed one but I doubt it).... and TDPRI like em just fine:

http://www.tdpri.com/threads/g-l-leo-fender-signature-asat.11401/

As Leo intended indeed. 

If that's all to TLDR (fair enough) think about it this way:  would you accept the FACT that most 3 point equipped instruments still have the original 3 point,  despite alternatives being available (granted not as many, but still) even the ones used by famous or pro players, as evidence of their superiority?  You're not taking Uwe and my word for it either so why would you think that the adamant ramblings of a few obsessed loudmouths on another  (in the grand scheme of things) obscure web board have any more validity?

Quote from: Granny Gremlin on April 23, 2016, 07:06:30 AM
....

If that's all to TLDR (fair enough) think about it this way:  would you accept the FACT that most 3 point equipped instruments still have the original 3 point,  despite alternatives being available (granted not as many, but still) even the ones used by famous or pro players, as evidence of their superiority?  You're not taking Uwe and my word for it either so why would you think that the adamant ramblings of a few obsessed loudmouths on another  (in the grand scheme of things) obscure web board have any more validity?

Of course I know that most three-point equipped Gibson and Epi basses still have the factory bridge, but no, I don't accept that as any evidence of superiority. This has nothing to do one way or other with superiority or which I think is better. I never claimed that the three-saddle Tele bridge was superior, I just stated that it's preferred by more Tele players (meaning Fender Telecasters, not non-Fender copies) than the six-saddle bridge. No more, no less, and no need for paragraphs of argument against things I never said in the first place.

As for what prominent Tele players use which, it wasn't meant to prove anything or to be representative. As I said, I was just naming some off the top of my head (in response to Uwe). It certainly didn't warrant a bullshit diatribe about the ages of the players.

Thread closed.