The Last Bass Outpost
Gear Discussion Forums => Bass Amps & Effects => Topic started by: drbassman on October 12, 2013, 01:57:21 PM
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Any thoughts on the specs of these new amps? Construction?
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You could start here:
http://www.mesaboogie.com/Product_Info/Bass_Amps/prodigy/bassProdigy.html
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I guess I hould have been more specific. I was wondering what the amp experts thought of the specs/manufacturer claims.
Vastly improved Tone, features, dial-ability, portability, packaging and control over the entire spectrum make the PRODIGY™ an iconic step forward in Bass amplification. With an all-new tube preamp, a 5-position Rotary VOICE Selector, Multi-Watt™ 2-Way Selectable Power, Footswitchable SOLO and VOICE control (optional footswitch required), Rear Tuner Outputs, and an all new, high output power section utilizing four KT-88s – the PRODIGY is THE tube Bass Amplifier for the new millenium.
PRODUCT SPECIFICATIONS:
Finally, a compact, portable tube bass amp that packs the massive tone and expressive feel only possible from tubes, into a midsized “lunchbox” package
Weighs Only 29lbs
Tube Power Amp & Preamp featuring 4xKT88 Power Tubes & 3x12AX7 Preamp Tubes
Class A/B, Multi-Watt™ Power Amp provides two power options via a Full/Half Power Switch
Choose from:
4 power tubes, producing 250 Tube-Watts* (“Sounds like in excess of 500”) or
2 tubes, producing 125 Tube-Watts*
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You can still get conventional power amp topology (Class A/B- IOW, "normal") with weight that light, even with tubes. The power and output transformers would have to be toroidial, but it's easily possible and cheaper to build. There's a bigger version still in the works, the Strategy Eight/88, which packs twice the power of the Prodigy. Mesa killed the Bass 400+, which is no back-breaker to start out with, to develop these since the buzzword in bass amps is "lightweight." Some of their s/s heads weighed about the same as the 400+, and they've quietly put them out to pasture, too: the Basis M-2000 and Carbine M3 are gone too. The M-2000 was a great amp, but way too complicated for the average player (many of them are STILL sitting on store shelves NOS after ten+ years) and the Carbine M3 didn't pack enough power for the price/weight.
The wattage/volume blurbs are typical Mesa hype: ie- the Bass "400+" is a 240 watt amp on a GOOD day, same for its predecessor the Bass 400. Mesa bass amps generally sound good to great but tend to be more pricey than most folks want to pay. I applaud the fact that they're a US manufacturer, but a lot of their supposed "rep" is self-created, and Randall Smith is a patent troll of the first order, even if he IS super nice on the phone. Don't even get me started on their bull$hit tube "testing and rating system." Until I see pictures of guts of a Prodigy/Strategy or get to try one out (you KNOW the local GC's are going to be stocking those... NOT) I can't comment any further, but for the record, I am VERY cautiously optimistic.
Garbage like this: NOTE: IMPORTANT! DO NOT ATTACH OR USE A CABINET OR CABINETS WHOSE IMPEDANCE/LOAD IS LOWER THAN 4 OHMS. USE OF A 2 OHM LOAD ON THE AMPLIFIER WILL DRAMATICALLY STRESS THE POWER TUBES AND OUTPUT TRANSFORMER, AND MAY CAUSE EXTENSIVE AND EXPENSIVE NON-WARRANTY DAMAGE TO THE AMPLIFIER.
and this: MESA/Boogie amplifiers can handle 4 and 8 ohms effectively. Never run below 4 ohms in a tube amplifier unless you are absolutely certain that the system can handle it properly; this can cause damage to the Output transformer. A few amplifiers can handle 2 ohms effectively without damaging them ( for example the MESA’S Bass 400+ ). You can always have a higher resistance ( 16 ohms, for example ) without damaging results, but too low of a resistance will likely cause problems.
doesn't do much to help my faith. The advice is entirely wrong, dangerously so in many other amps, but Mesa runs its B+ line fairly conservatively, so in many cases, people who follow their faulty advice never know that they're slowly destroying their output transformer, but the physics of many series/parallel cabinet connections which most modern bass cabinet makers employ also play to their favor with that, too. I seriously cannot believe that they have any in-depth knowledge of basic tube amp operation and flyback voltage (how CRT TV's work) and still put idiocy like that in their manuals. Oh well, it's their ass, not mine.
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So what would be an equivalent/comparable amp to this one with at least 250 watts? I'm thinking more head room than I currently have.
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So what would be an equivalent/comparable amp to this one with at least 250 watts? I'm thinking more head room than I currently have.
The trouble with many modern tube amps is that because they're tube, they're designed to NOT have the same headroom/gain structure of a s/s bass amp because, of course,
tubes ALWAYS = distortion
;)
The Bass Prodigy may actually fit the bill. I won't know until I see one in person. Online reviews and sound clips are mostly worthless. Bass 400+'s are plenty loud but dirty, but with a few tweaks, can be much cleaner and punchier, like mine. They're basically a throttled-back Fender Studio Bass power section with extra power tubes and a s/s graphic EQ. If you want loud, cheap, tubes and light, the Peavey VB-2 is the way to go. I can't say enough about how good of an amp it is. I don't have one, but if given the opportunity, I would. Traynor's current stuff is excellent, too.
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So you are saying there's more head room in ss amps? I have to say that the Mesa M Pulse 600 sounded really good to me. Lots of headroom and great tone.
Might I do as well with a high watt ss amp?
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So you are saying there's more head room in ss amps? I have to say that the Mesa M Pulse 600 sounded really good to me. Lots of headroom and great tone.
Might I do as well with a high watt ss amp?
That's not what I'm saying at all. I was commenting that many recent tube bass amps are designed to distort because that's how modern marketing has 'sold' tube amps. Amps like the Mesa Bass 400+, Sunn 300T/Fender Bassman 300, and the Ampeg SVT CL aren't designed for maximum clean volume because players "expect" tube distortion out of them. You can attest just how loud 100 AND clean tube watts can be.
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I get it now. I didn't understand your design remark. I see the marketing angle, making new tube amps sound like old ones. Makes sense.
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I get it now. I didn't understand your design remark. I see the marketing angle, making new tube amps sound like old ones. Makes sense.
It sure does. That seems to be the specific reason that many people buy tubes.
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The Traynor YBA-300 has oodles of clean headroom. I sold mine and went back to a YBA-200 because it was too clean for my liking - at the volumes we played at. No doubt it would have got some distortion at a stadium concert though LOL
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Eh...Mesa's hype is nothing new. 4 KT88s get what they get, not "sounds like 500." Likewise, I never paid any attention to the claim that the 400+ is 500 watts.
The shipping weight on my Mesa 400+ was only 52 lbs., I suspect the amp weighs about 45 if you don't put it in a rack or enclosure. That's light to me. Building a 29 lb. tube amp means something's gotta be sacrificed.
The Bass Prodigy will probably be loud and sound good. Beyond that, I'd have to hear it head to head against a comparable tube amp.
BTW, didn't Mesa pull out of GC?
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Sweetwater has these arriving soon, $1799 for the Bass Prodigy Four, $2399 for the Bass Strategy Eight which they call 465 watts. Good grief, the supposed reason they discontinued the Bass 400+ was that sales dropped after they had to raise the retail to $1800. I'd sell mine for a lot less that that!
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Based on this thread and a couple others, I'm thinking a Traynor might be a good one to experiment with. There's even a dealer in Buffalo/Niagara Falls area.
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I thought I remembered seeing a pic of a Prodigy chassis and I did here (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151706227122685&set=a.112196417684.100780.59345672684&type=1&permPage=1).
(http://i646.photobucket.com/albums/uu183/PsychoBassGuy/MesaProdigy_zpsa6f5ebde.jpg)
Those are most definitely NOT toroidial transformers:
(http://i646.photobucket.com/albums/uu183/PsychoBassGuy/vt300-large-med_zps2e2e8df7.jpg)
like the Koch/Eden/Sadowsky VT-300 had.
I'm not a fan of ribbon cables, but those look heavy-duty, and the main bus lines look pretty big, too, as well as the clump of filter caps. I want to see that thing make clean full power on a scope and a meter, 32 volts into 4 ohms at 40 Hz. Those transformers look too small. At a glance, I'd say that it probably makes an honest 150-180 watts, which puts it right in line with Mesa's historical naming/rating versus actual output. There are ways to get the power they claim and more out of that little of amp real estate, but Mesa traditionally is conservative in its circuits and loud with its advertising.
With them pulling out of GC, which has been LONG overdue, their new price list looks like they're aiming squarely at the 'booteek' collector market outside the US. Notice there's no line of cabinets to match= not geared for the average gigging musician. I don't see how they ever maintained GC in the first place. Even only in "select" stores, the amps very clearly were rushed in production. The year and a half I worked at GC, not a SINGLE Mesa came off the truck 100% functional.
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Well, I've never wanted to be the first to buy something right out of the factory. I like to know the bugs have been worked first. Thanks for the review of the Mesa-construction.
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BTW, I cleaned up my previous post and copied and embedded from my own stash the relevant photos to make things less confusing. I'm sure Tom Bowlus wouldn't mind me using his Photobucket, but I don't want to impose, and I removed the Sadowsky shot from Talkbass. Even though they were less than fair with me and have volumes of my tech data posted without my consent that I cannot remove, I won't bogart their bandwidth.
I still want to give a MAJOR shout out to the Peavey VB-2. It's pretty much the same volume as the Traynor, but more versatile tonally, and a little cleaner according to those who have A/B'ed them.
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Bill...I get the feeling that you're on a perpetual amp search....?
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Bill...I get the feeling that you're on a perpetual amp search....?
Well, I wouldn't say perpetual. Just looking for the one that gets inside my head and grabs me for good. Kinda like how I feel about my ThunderJet.
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Seriously considering the Traynor, but the Peavey is in second place right now.
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I still want to give a MAJOR shout out to the Peavey VB-2. It's pretty much the same volume as the Traynor, but more versatile tonally, and a little cleaner according to those who have A/B'ed them.
Can the Peavey VB-2 get dirty sounding? I don't mean a gnarly distortion but a gritty edge to the sound? I have thought about getting one of those a few times but never pulled the trigger.
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The Peavey VB-2 has the single most intuitive and useful preamp I've seen in ANY bass amp. It can replicate the basic tone of just about EVERY tube bass amp out there. It sounds like nothing Peavey, or any one else for that matter, has ever put out. To contrast it with another good Peavey tube bass amp, the Classic 400, the VB-2 is like a blank slate while the Classic 400 sounds like what it is, a "Peavey-ized" SVT, regardless of preamp or channel settings. The VB-2 will do what you're asking and then some.
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The Peavey VB-2 has the single most intuitive and useful preamp I've seen in ANY bass amp. It can replicate the basic tone of just about EVERY tube bass amp out there. It sounds like nothing Peavey, or any one else for that matter, has ever put out. To contrast it with another good Peavey tube bass amp, the Classic 400, the VB-2 is like a blank slate while the Classic 400 sounds like what it is, a "Peavey-ized" SVT, regardless of preamp or channel settings. The VB-2 do what you're asking and then some.
If i don't win the Traynor, I'll look at the peavey.
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Doc, there is one on TB for sale right now. I would love to buy it but can't right now.
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Doc, there is one on TB for sale right now. I would love to buy it but can't right now.
Thanks for the heads-up. I'll look into it.
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Doc, there is one on TB for sale right now. I would love to buy it but can't right now.
Gone already!
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The HOG has a Prodigy so I'll be checking it out tomorrow.
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Slipped in today and couldn't help myself. Played it through a Mesa powerhouse 2x15 stack (like the one I bought for the club a couple weeks ago -2 1x15 cabs-thump thump) and I was blown away. So much more presence and depth compared to my SS Mesa and the MMs. Head room too is a plus.
I feel like I need to join GAS anonymous. I told myself it was too new, too expensive, too overhyped etc., etc. After looking at the 5 year warranty and knowing HOG will always back it up, I plunged. But I just realized today that I have become my dad. When he went looking at new cars, he always came home with one. He never window shopped, ever. It's awful when you become your parents!
I've had great experience with all of my Mesa stuff. The kicker for me is the 5 way switch and the head room. You can jump between these really nice freq settings from boomy to hi-freq nasal with a flip of the switch. You still have the other controls you can enhance things more with. I wish I was better at listening and discerning the fine differences in tone like some of you guys. I just found the combo of this amp and those heavy duty 15's to be a powerful and pleasing sound. I'm playing it at home with my cheapo Ampeg 15 cab and it's working well thus far. It'll go to practice next week. Well I'll stop blabbering for now and report back more after I've had more time on it.
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Congrats! I sincerely hope Mesa has some winners on its hands with its new tube bass amps. The move to KT88's for power is encouraging; A single KT88 has a higher plate current capability than a pair of 6L6GC's which translates into a bigger bottom and more clean lows. Even if the amp still continues in Mesa's 'overrated naming' tradition, it's going to have a bigger low end and more punch at its 'weight' in the watts it does provide.
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Congrats! I sincerely hope Mesa has some winners on its hands with its new tube bass amps. The move to KT88's for power is encouraging; A single KT88 has a higher plate current capability than a pair of 6L6GC's which translates into a bigger bottom and more clean lows. Even if the amp still continues in Mesa's 'overrated naming' tradition, it's going to have a bigger low end and more punch at its 'weight' in the watts it does provide.
Thanks for all of the pointers, it helped. The sound of this amp with two 15s is really nice. It's like you can hear the notes breath. Like I said, I'm not good at discerning but the sound just grabs me. It approaches the sound in my head that the Mesa M pulse 600 put in there years ago. That's a good thing for sure.
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I hope it works well for you, especially with your ThunderJet.
Two 15's rule.
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I hope it works well for you, especially with your ThunderJet.
Two 15's rule.
For sure. HOG let me try a Mesa 15 and a 2x10. I took the 2x10 back and swapped it for a 15. Much better sound IMHO. I got a bonus on one of the cabs. It was used and someone put an EV in it and it is super strong. I didn't think Mesa did that. I love that cab!
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For sure. HOG let me try a Mesa 15 and a 2x10. I took the 2x10 back and swapped it for a 15. Much better sound IMHO. I got a bonus on one of the cabs. It was used and someone put an EV in it and it is super strong. I didn't think Mesa did that. I love that cab!
My two Mesa 1x15s came with EVs stock. No idea what's standard now.
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One cab you can see the EV logo through the grill, the other I can't. I'll have to pop it open and see. Either way, they make great bass cabs.
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OK, I use the Prodigy at practice last night and it was great. The guys loved the sound and I had a lot of fun with it. The 5-way tone switch is super and I used two different settings, one bassy and the other with enhanced mids, giving me nice quick flexibility from song to song. The treble, mid and bass controls can essentially be left at 12 o'clock for the most past and used to fine tune the 5 way settings. The middle setting is neutral and you use only the other knobs to dail in your desired tone. I gotta get their foot switch and then I can switch between the 5 settings without messing with the amp.
There's also a solo setting that is foot switchable and you can use it up your volume when you want and then drop back down. There are lots of great features on this amp. There are also 3 speaker jacks, 2 of them 4 ohm and one 8 ohm. You can do a ton of combinations depending on your speaker set up.
The combination of the amp with two Mesa Powerhouse 15" cabs is super. The ThunderJet, with TI rounds, growls like crazy. I really had to back off on the bridge pup and use the pup switch in the top position. As for power, wow, there's plenty. Kept the gain at 12 o'clock and the volume at 10 o'clock.
It's still early yet, but I'm loving it so far. I usually leave my amp at the club between practices, but I'm bringing this baby home to play with in between.
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Here she is, my dream rig. All tubes and two 15s. It sounds so good in our little club. I run the volume just under 9 o'clock and the power is more than enough to fill the room. Saturday night the club will be full of people, so it will be interesting to see how it performs then. The other night I wasn't as happy as I could be with the sound and then I tweaked the bass knob and bang, it boomed to life. I was running things a bit too flat and the tone was harsh, but the additional bass gave it the sound my brain was craving.
If you look close, you can see the cabs are a bit different. The bottom cab is speaker only, no horn or crossover. The top cab has all of that. They are like new, not a mark on them. Got them at the HOG, used to belong to the bass player for Gary Lewis and the Playboys. He traded them in for an all Orange rig. Can you believe it, he's still out there playing? Doing the casino circuit mostly. Bubble gum lives!!!! :bored:
Anyway, here they are........
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/drbassman/AMPS/DSCN1116_zps1e673c61.jpg) (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/drbassman/media/AMPS/DSCN1116_zps1e673c61.jpg.html)
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Looks great! I'm partial to the Mesa look, of course.
I recall reading that Gary Lewis lives in Rochester.
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Looks great! I'm partial to the Mesa look, of course.
I recall reading that Gary Lewis lives in Rochester.
I agree Dave, their designers are pretty darn good. I believe he does, I don't remember which town, but he is local. I suppose some of his band is too. Nice of the bass payer to trade in some great stuff so I could get it for a huge discount!
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Those look GREAT!
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Those look GREAT!
And the sound is amazing, top notch.
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damn GAS pains...
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Played the rig at a gig on Saturday night. All went really well! She performed without hardly any effort in a crowded club. I've very happy! Thank you Mesa.
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I'm glad to hear Mesa is doing well with these. It would appear their solid state bass amp years weren't too kind to them, even though they're still nice amps.
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Yep, so far so good. Have another gig this Saturday, so we'll see how it goes. Gonna try some different basses this time.
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OK, things have been going well with the new rig, but I do have one small dilemma. The Mesa powerhouse 15s are huge sounding speaker cabs but they are difficult to tame. I can plug a hollow body bass with flats on it in and the darn thing growls like a j bass with rounds. I cut back on the highs on the one cab that has a switch and I've tried adjusting the amp, but I seem to be missing something. I'm beginning to think the cabs are a bit too modern and I need to work more with the EQ on the amp.
Otherwise, all is good. Several other bass players who attended my last 2 gigs loved the sound of the rig, so I know it's that little "expectation filter" in my brain that is telling me it's not what I expected!
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.. I'm beginning to think the cabs are a bit too modern and I need to work more with the EQ on the amp.
Otherwise, all is good. Several other bass players who attended my last 2 gigs loved the sound of the rig, so I know it's that little "expectation filter" in my brain that is telling me it's not what I expected!
The cabs aren't too modern, especially considering that they're 15s. I'd say your brain is just expecting a little more vintage sound than they have.
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The cabs aren't too modern, especially considering that they're 15s. I'd say your brain is just expecting a little more vintage sound than they have.
Yep, it's a brain thing for sure. I should be glad the rig doesn't sound as crappy as my old B-15 trying to do outdoor gigs and huge dance halls. I just have to work more at tweaking the amp and quit being an old fart! :o
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Don't be afraid to turn the tweeter entirely off... sometimes that's what it takes.
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Don't be afraid to turn the tweeter entirely off... sometimes that's what it takes.
I'm with you. I decided that was going to be my first step. The edge on my sound cuts like a knife and I suspected it could one of the culprits.
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Lots going on with the Mesa. I bought the 4 button pedal made for the Prodigy and it's really nice. The Mute feature is great and you can add a tuner to the pedal so you can tune while in mute mode. I'll be doing that. I love the Solo button, being able to increase volume in the middle of a song and drop back down again is really cool. I don't use FX but the Voice button is fun as well since you can toggle between your 5 voice settings. Gotta learn how to do that better! You could expect the pedal to come with an amp that costs $1799, but I paid $110, so it was worth it IMHO.
I haven't been able to tone down the Powerhouse speakers, so I'm changing them out to two Mesa Scout radiating 15" cabs. You just can't get the low deep end out of the PH cabs and the Scouts are great for that. Should be in the shop in 4-6 weeks.
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If the amp cost 10 times that, don't expect the pedal. You're livin' in the past doc, you're livin' in the past ;D ;).
Rick
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If the amp cost 10 times that, don't expect the pedal. You're livin' in the past doc, you're livin' in the past ;D ;).
Rick
I know! But sometimes the past is so much better than the present, except when you're a cancer survivor. Viva el presente y futuro!
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Congratulations on beating the big C pal ;D.
I am working on a time machine out in the garage. It mows the lawn great, but I haven't worked out all the bugs in the time travel thing. When I get it all sorted out I'll give you a call ;D ;).
Rick
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Congratulations on beating the big C pal ;D.
I am working on a time machine out in the garage. It mows the lawn great, but I haven't worked out all the bugs in the time travel thing. When I get it all sorted out I'll give you a call ;D ;).
Rick
It's easy to be nostalgic at my age! I have lots of fond memories.
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It's easy to be nostalgic at my age! I have lots of fond memories.
Or as the old joke from the late 60s went, I remember when air was clean, sex was dirty and hot pants was a condition instead of a fashion.
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Or as the old joke from the late 60s went, I remember when air was clean, sex was dirty and hot pants was a condition instead of a fashion.
Or my dad walking to school everyday, uphill both ways.
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Or my dad walking to school everyday, uphill both ways.
Hey, I did that too........at least I think I did :-\ ;)
Rick