The Last Bass Outpost
Main Forums => The Outpost Cafe => Topic started by: Dave W on March 13, 2009, 08:16:47 AM
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And good riddance: the only US Interstate with metric markers will be redone with mile markers.
http://www.gvnews.com/articles/2009/03/06/breaking_news/00mileposts0308.txt
Never should have been changed in the first place.
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If they're smart they'll sell the signs on Ebay and raise funds with them - they're collectors items!
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That should justify at least a 10% tax increase >:(
Rick
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Does this mean we are not changing to the Metric System?
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Does this mean we are not changing to the Metric System?
I told that idiot Mrs. Albert (my 2nd grade teacher) that the metric system was stupid. She assured me that I knew nothing and that it would be implemented in the US within a few years. Ha Ha, I win! I hope she's still alive and thinks of me when she sees this news... :mrgreen:
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Ha ha haaa
Funny too that when I got a new car stereo in my Vette I was headin' home with it from Vegas before I realized that the installers had switched my speedometer & odometer over to kilometers.
That gave me a shock!
Got it changed back when I got home to SoCal.
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I marvel how you guys even have the nerve to relish bathing in your own metric ignorance!
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If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
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I marvel how you guys even have the nerve to relish bathing in yiur own metric ignorance!
Spoken ..er typed...with excellent eloquence. :D
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I marvel how you guys even have the nerve to relish bathing in yiur own metric ignorance!
Uwe, in all seriousness, when I was introduced to the metric system (by the aforementioned 2nd grade teacher), it was explained in a way that made sure I understood that Americans were stupid and backward for ever having NOT used the system, and that Europe and Canada, which were so much smarter than we dumb Americans, had devised this wonderful new way to measure everything. Then the teacher explained that it would only be a few years before we did away with the dumb American way of doing things and all would be well once we did. Even at 7 years old, I understood what she was saying perfectly well and my initial reaction was not only that she was a dried up old windbag, but that I didn't need her or anyone else telling me how inferior the 'American' way of doing anything was. I'm not implying that anyone advocating the metric system today is saying those things, but (other than needing two socket wrench sets), I just don't have a great need for it.
I have to note here that I don't think I, being an American, am superior to anyone born here or anywhere else. I do, however, like being one, just as I'd hope Aussie Mark prefers being Australian and Uwe prefers being German. I think everyone should have an innate sense of pride for who they are and where they come from. It makes them what they are, and can't ever be changed, so why not embrace it?
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Years ago, when I took physical science in college, the textbook had a picture of a girl in a bikini. The purpose was to convert her measurements to the metric system. It was at that time that I actually thought changing to the metric system might be fun.
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I think the metric system actually makes a lot of sense since it works in tens: ten millimeter is one centimeter, ten centimeter is one decimeter, ten decimeter is one meter and so on.
In my job as a guitar builder/repairman I frequently have to shift back and forth between Inches and centimeters and it's rather confusing since the measuring system of inches, feet and miles don't really make a lot of sense if you're not taught about them in school. The fact that Inches, feet and miles also aren't measured in tens adds to the confusion.
If the Americans on this board value their measuring system so much, good for them, but I'd rather stick to the Metric system since it makes doing what I do so much easier.
Besides, you Yanks already took revenge on the French for the Metric system by sending Jerry Lewis to France, isn't that cruel enough?
;)
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And good riddance: the only US Interstate with metric markers will be redone with mile markers.
http://www.gvnews.com/articles/2009/03/06/breaking_news/00mileposts0308.txt
Never should have been changed in the first place.
They took them down here in MA but don't ask me when, I didn't even notice it until this post. They used to have them in both miles and Kilometers. We're too big for those puny kilometers. Now we gotta get rid of this stupid extended daylight savings time thing.
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What's next? Ditching grams and Kilograms and going back to lbs.? :P "My bass weighs in at 9 lbs." Does that really mean anything? ;D
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I will not rest until we stop IDing engine sizes by liters. LITERS?!
It's an engine, not a g*d*mned bottle of fizzy water! >:(
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Uwe, in all seriousness, when I was introduced to the metric system (by the aforementioned 2nd grade teacher), it was explained in a way that made sure I understood that Americans were stupid and backward for ever having NOT used the system, and that Europe and Canada, which were so much smarter than we dumb Americans, had devised this wonderful new way to measure everything. Then the teacher explained that it would only be a few years before we did away with the dumb American way of doing things and all would be well once we did. Even at 7 years old, I understood what she was saying perfectly well and my initial reaction was not only that she was a dried up old windbag, but that I didn't need her or anyone else telling me how inferior the 'American' way of doing anything was. I'm not implying that anyone advocating the metric system today is saying those things, but (other than needing two socket wrench sets), I just don't have a great need for it.
I have to note here that I don't think I, being an American, am superior to anyone born here or anywhere else. I do, however, like being one, just as I'd hope Aussie Mark prefers being Australian and Uwe prefers being German. I think everyone should have an innate sense of pride for who they are and where they come from. It makes them what they are, and can't ever be changed, so why not embrace it?
The reason for adopting the metric system is that it - like Blazer says - works in decimals (making it easy to learn, even for Americans! ;) ) and that it is the world language in measurements. It has nothing to do with US inferiority or superiority. The US is groundbreaking state and culture in many things and continues to be, but using a measurement rooted in medieval times that is quite remote from accepted mathematical principles isn't among them. (It's not like Europe didn't have similar systems. But we did away with them a couple of hundred years ago.) And I sure hope that the imperial measurement system is not what defines America, you guys and gals have myriads of other things that characterize you and make you great, special or just lovably strange, no need to cling to an archaic measurement system that your former colonial oppressors forced upon you (and have meanwhile themselves done away with)!
Look at it this way: I'm all for advocating English as the world (first or second) language. It's not because English is a better language than others or because Anglo-American culture is superior, it is just a bloody effectve means of communication and a popularly accepted one at that. English is a beautiful langugage, but you can speak and write it badly, reduce it to pidgin and it still works for communication at a basic level, where many other languages fail if not spoken at least medium-well. English is a good tool then (irrespective for the literary qualities it has as well and the heights of sophistication it also offers).
In much the same way, the metric system is a good tool and prevalent measurement language. So listen to the well-meaning advice of your worldwide friends for once and sensibly adopt it so at least your next generation can work with it. It's not like abolishing Thanksgiving, you know. :)
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+1
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- 1. I come to praise metric, not to bury it.
The plain truth is that imperial is better. It always was, and always will be. I say this not out of ignorance of metric: I understand it, and lived "under" it. You pick it up fast enough, and it works, kind of. This is not a case of being backward, or forward. These are concepts that metric was invented to address, and failed at.
Where to begin? There are too many flaws, but I will start with the decimal concept. It IS easier to convert from one subset to another, simply by adding zeroes or subtracting. For instance, If one knew the distance between two cities - say Paris and Riga - were "X" km, then the conversion of that measurement to Meters, CM, MM is a simple matter of adding zeroes to it. The same can be said of weight measure.
Now, if one knew the distance between say New York City and Apache Junction, then if someone asked the question "How many inches is that?" The answer, of course, is "What is wrong with you?" One would only ask this kind of a question, in metric or imperial, if one were a complete a-hole.
That doesn't mean this is not an unanswerable question. You can figure it out, and you can even commit the conversion to memory. But that is the beauty of the imperial measure: it takes into account humanity. The designers of imperial (Summerians, Israelites, Greeks, Romans, etc) knew that some things were big (miles) and some things were small (inches). So, the concept of having them inter-relate was secondary, as they knew, and all people know, that conversions are largely irellevant.
Another point to consider is the human eye. When one buys a piece of artwork, where do they typically hang it on the wall? Typically, one wants it to be a third of the way down, or 2/3rds up. What is a third of the meter?
Now, imperial measure has all of that built in. Want a half? Got it. Want a quarter? Got it. Want a third? Got it, and built in, part of the system.
Imperial is better.
Uwe's Edit: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: As a lawyer I can appreciate brilliant advocacy even for a non-sensical system/lost cause!
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So listen to the well-meaning advice of your worldwide friends for once and sensibly adopt it so at least your next generation can work with it. It's not like abolishing Thanksgiving, you know. :)
Insert "raspberry" here... ;D
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I am afraid the non-sensical element is demanding a measurement that is decimal to provide ease of use in areas that really are never used.
But I add another facet of this foolishness: Celsius. Celsius scale is, in theory, simpler(?) because it bases its scale on two solid points: zero is freezing, and 100 is boiling. This "improves" on the superior Fahrenheit scale as nobody can remember those points (32 and 212 by the way) and in Fahrenheit zero means nothing.
Except, that they do.
And water only boils at 100 if you are at the right elevation, where Celsius goes out the window at other elevations. So, its base points are off at best. And that is important because when one boils water, one always inserts a thermometer to check its progress. And when one makes ice cubes, one inserts the thermometer in the tray constantly to check for that 32 degree point. Right?
I guess that leaves weather. Fahrenheit being a scientific and Germanic fellow, loved humanity. He knew that it got a heck of a lot colder, and a heck of a lot hotter than his zero and 100. But, being a human being, he realized that you really wanted a nice round about scale that told you things. Zero outside? That is really cold, about as cold as it ever gets where most humans live. 100? That is about as hot as it gets. 50? Take a sweater. Way below zero? It so cold it matches Celsius.
Celsius tells you at zero that you got a ways to go in the cold department. 50? 100? You're dead. Useless as a weather scale, imperfect as a thermal scale, and not as good as Fahrenheit - which is more precise anyway.
But some people think being able to count on your fingers should base everything. Thank God the metric clock died in the womb. Yeah, I know about that too.
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This is getting way too political now with celsius and all that. :-X :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
I guess while you guys are intellectually ever so slowly inching forward to realization what the clearly superior and more widely accepted system is you still may have some miles to go. :-*
Flashthought: Are lightyears metric or imperial or has the speed of energy chosen to ignore both?
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this country could never afford the metric system even if we wanted it . we would have to re-tool the entire nation. besides, we like being different . ;)
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I don't WANNA drive a "5-litre".
I wants me a good ole 302, 305 or 307 small-block!
"Six litres" sounds wimpy. A Chevy 350 sounds MUCH MAS better!
And a Pontiac 389, 400 or 421 shall always be referred to by that nomenclature!
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Sigh! How comfortable ignorance can be ...
Doesn't it bother you that you are in century-old default of your own voluntarily chosen commitments? :P
"Since the mid nineteenth century the United States has made several attempts at converting over to the World Standard. On May 20, 1875 the United States became a charter member of the metric club, having signed the original document (The Treaty of the Meter), in Paris. They were the only English-speaking nation to do so. Since then, 48 nations have signed this treaty, including all the major industrialized countries. In 1975 the US Congress passed the Metric Conversion Act and although made with good intentions, the Treaties, Acts, established Institutes, and passed legislation have yet to push through the change.
To answer the second half of the question - it is not true that the US remains the last holdout. While the rest of the world is pretty much standardized on the metric system of measurements, when it comes to mandatory use, the United States has company in its foot dragging. Great Britain, Liberia and Burma are right there along with the United States. Some international organizations have threatened to restrict U.S. imports that do not conform to metric standards and rather than trying to maintain dual inventories for domestic and foreign markets, a number of U.S. corporations have chosen to go metric. Some Motor vehicles, farm machinery, and computer equipment are now manufactured to metric specifications. We have a feeling that you will be seeing more and more of your customers in the US using the Metric system in their purchases with you as their customers make more and more original specifications in Metric.
One More Important Thing To Know: SI is the abbreviation for the Système International d'Unités, the modernized version of the metric system that most nations have agreed to use. It defines the length of a Meter as the distance light will travel in a vacuum in 1/299,792,458 of a second. Talk about calibrating your measuring tools!"
"It defines the length of a Meter as the distance light will travel in a vacuum in 1/299,792,458 of a second." Wow, that number sounds crooked enough to be imperial/standard! :mrgreen:
Let's just settle for the fact then that the US of A is a rogue state in metric terms - together with Liberia and Burma. The company you keep ... :mrgreen: ;)
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"Besides, you Yanks already took revenge on the French for the Metric system by sending Jerry Lewis to France, isn't that cruel enough?
Not really ;D
I wish we had a young clone of Mr Lewis to give to the French ;)
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Ahh, the futility of a losing argument.
First, let's examine the SI. It is now the "the modernized version" of measure. Why modernized? Simply because the systems units were based on mis-calculations. And arrogant concepts to boot: the idea that modern (then) men could improve on time-tested and functioning measurement systems used by those pesky Brits. So they based it on the mis-calculated circumference of the world, the world being their mother or some such egalitarian nonsense that pollutes the globe till this day. Bottom line is that to legitimize a system of measure that has been involved in or contributed to virtually no modern scientific invention or convenience, one needs to express it some rediculous galaxian constant - the speed of light? Please. And if I never see that shibboleth about metric-standard nations refusing US imports again. This of course would lead one to believe that US goods cannot be measured in metric standards, which is again nonsensical. Most European goods (ahem) are not squared off or cut down to exact metric sizes either. The argument has been used 40 years ago for trade wars. The good ole bushel of wheat is welcome wherever starving children await it. If someone needs to express that in liter displacement, have at it. If some nation is capable of out-producing or out-consuming the US, get in line.
No, our European friends cling to the arrogance of their illusionary superiority in embracing the measurement system of the modern world, only it isn't worth the effort. Imperial is better, and will always be a better system, because it was designed by people for people. Metric was dictated by egalitarians for improving on those dirty lowly people back then. Its inherent bombast is its flaw. And just who are we supposed to be joining in with, globally? Europe? Hardly worth the effort. For international trade, there isn't that much to bother with. For building codes? Same deal. Are our roadways supposed to be more welcoming for vacationing engineers from Slovakia? I think they get around fine.
Besides, look at the people who used imperial measure, and who chose metric. Imperial: Virgil, Charlemagne, St Catherine of Sienna, Abraham Lincoln, JFK, Mickey Mantle, John Entwistle.
Metric: Lenin, Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Fidel Castro, Mugabe, Versace.
Canada drags its feet as well. Signs are changed, but try ordering 454 grms of baked ham somewhere. Try figuring out why the Coke and paint cans are such an odd non-metric size.
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Besides, look at the people who used imperial measure, and who chose metric. Imperial: Virgil, Charlemagne, St Catherine of Sienna, Abraham Lincoln, JFK, Mickey Mantle, John Entwistle.
Metric: Lenin, Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Fidel Castro, Mugabe, Versace.
EB2 I hope for you that you're kidding with what you've just stated.
BECAUSE: Metric also stands for Klaus Voorman, Rinus Gerritsen, Eddie Van Halen, Werner Von Braun (The USA would've never set foot on the moon without the Metric system!)
And why would you say a fashion designers' name in one breath with tyrants? Versace had no blood on his hands.
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Come on, man! Don´t take this so serious! He´s just joking! Chear up a bit.
BTW: Hugo Boss designed the SS uniforms:)
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Clearly I was referring to Donatella.
Werner Von Braun would have never set foot on Florida without Robert Goddard, who used no metric. And I suspect a major part of the Apollo program was imperial measure as well. Metric had as much to do with the moon landings as imperial.
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Flashthought: Are lightyears metric or imperial or has the speed of energy chosen to ignore both?
That would be Imperial! ;D :P :P
And please, in the future, make sure that you capitalize the "L" :mrgreen: ;)
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Tom Lehrer, 1965 :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEJ9HrZq7Ro
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EB2 I hope for you that you're kidding with what you've just stated.
BECAUSE: ..................Werner Von Braun (The USA would've never set foot on the moon without the Metric system!)
I'm fairly certain the Mr. Von Braun made a coversion to Imperial measure - I am quiet certain it was less trouble to learn Imperial measurements than whatever Stalinist Russia was using.
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A lot of things the German's introduced during the war are still in use in Holland nowadays. I believe it's Mother's Day, the change of time during summer, and some more. Uwe maybe know more about this?
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This forum is populated by Beavis and Butthead types: ignorant, biased and relishing in it. But also highly entertaining. So please continue to put a foot or a corresponding amount of inches in your mouth! :mrgreen:
Eb2 hasn't been that brilliantly vitriolic in a long time. :rimshot: Great intellectual marksmanship, I admit it, but imperial measurements are still a dying breed!
Uwe
PS: And you can say what you want about our Führer but he always knew how to dress his age and was never seen in Versace!
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aw come on, tell us how you really feel. :rolleyes: the bias rolls both ways on this one.
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How do I really feel? I'm not taking any of this serious, but appreciate the wordsmithy expertise of some cherished Überforumsters here! :) Whether you darn Imperialists adopt metric or not, I really don't give a millimeter about. Since when has the US ever accepted good advice from the outside when it had the option of doing it wrong on its own first? :mrgreen:
Seriously, this is just good fun. What would I do with all my lovingly collected imperial guitar tools if you guys suddenly saw the errors of your ways? ;)
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I prefer to think of imperial measures as just a breed, not dying yet needing no improvement. Like the primeval fern, they exist as a perfectly thriving plant, providing the beneficial oxygen and CO2 exchange as perfectly any later-developed plant. Yet they are an archaic life form in relationship to the rest. They exist, like imperial measures, as they were developed and adapted to change by evolution: not concocted by delusionary 18th century Frenchmen.
Truth be told, I find it hard to sustain prickly dialogue two days in a row. In a note of social observation of a more serious measure, one great reason that the old mile, inch, pound, etc., persist in the US and other areas where His and Her Majesty's troops once trooped, is a testament to the British educational system. And the devotion to education of our Yankee and Southern founding fathers in particular. In great contrast to most of the world, especially Europe, basic education and citizen-controlled commerce were ingrained in every US community almost from the beginning (first public school: 1635). Familiarity with imperial measure was common to every town, even rural (not denying the Jethro Bodine concept, of course). In many other places, including many nations/kingdoms in Europe, that social institution was non existent or rare until the 20th century. Most Americans have been exposed to metric, and on a scientific/bio-med/engineering level it is the norm. Yet for daily life - weather, carpentry, farming, travel - imperial rules as it should.
To know imperial - for generations - is to love it.
I believe Werner would have had an easier time using versts, but I don't think the Ruskies were having a problem using metric.
And all us WWII fans know that the Führer had an intense interest in the design of the uniforms, being heavily influenced by his love of a WWI surplus coat he wore...of...the...BRITISH Army! Designed in inches!
And now you know...the rest of the story.
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:mrgreen:
I was waiting for that. The imperial system as evidence for a balanced and effective education system. :-\ And I thought your wholehearted absorbing of Darwin's evolution theory had already evidenced that. :mrgreen:
That said, I remember parts of the Bible that mention imperial-akin measurements, while metric units are not mentioned at all. So metric is inherently ungodly and devillish, while imperial sizes are heaven for any creationist. There we finally have it, it all makes sense now. The three steps to heaven are measured in feet and yards, not meters!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHgO7yh06V0
And here is the metric version by Ex-Tornado Heinz, who emulated Cochran after his death in England, being of German/metric origin, hence the naturally aryan hair color!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BY_PQG5gyPc
Now, how does Ritchie Blackmore work into all this? A former radio engineer, I'm sure he appreciated the advantages of the metric system, but he also played with Heinz, that is young Blackers deftly playing the lead guitar and solo here (atr 1.30):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xlef4f_66A
We definitely have too few Joe Meek threads here!
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That said, I remember parts of the Bible that mention imperial-akin measurements, while metric units are not mentioned at all. So metric is inherently ungodly and devillish, while imperial sizes are heaven for any creationist. There we finally have it, it all makes sense now. The three steps to heaven are measured in feet and yards, not meters!
I did allude to that in my initial post. Imperial is rooted in the ancient Sumerian system, which is the source of our superior divisibility in thirds. That system evolved into the famed cubit units, familiar to any colonial and post-colonial American school child and framer of the US Constitution via his Bible study, even if they didn't buy into it like Jefferson. And as we all know, Noah was instructed to use said cubits by Jehovah himself. God don't do metric, although I am sure he hears the prayers of people who use it.
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Since when has the US ever accepted good advice from the outside when it had the option of doing it wrong on its own first? :mrgreen:
Flawed logic here - This implies that there has been, at some point, good advice from the outside. ;D
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"God don't do metric, although I am sure he hears the prayers of people who use it."
Ich ergebe mich, Kamerad!!!
(http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/3071503.jpg?v=1&c=ViewImages&k=2&d=396B455078B246ECB0EA2A5F0DC7F728A55A1E4F32AD3138)
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The claim that only Liberia, Burma and the US don't use metric is one of those "wiki-facts" -- possibly true but AFAIK just unconfirmed propaganda spread by the US Metric Association which has been trying to ram the metric system down our throats for years.
Not that I GARA anyway. The metric system is a solution in search of a problem.
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God don't do metric, although I am sure he hears the prayers of people who use it.
/thread! ;D
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The metric system is a solution in search of a problem.
I think it is a solution to a problem that has been solved. I own some metric tools (and a twenty year old Toyota), but before that were the MG's and Triumph's. Metric wrenches make sense, 10, 13, 17, nice even numbers. I just looked to make sure I didn't dream it, I do have a 19/32" wrench. Who would make a fastener that needs a 19/32" wrench when you could use a more standard size like 8/16" or 5/8"? The British, that's who. Somewhere on a 1961 MG there is a need for a 19/32" wrench, maybe on the SU carbs. At least the metric system fixed that. Maybe not, now I have twice as many wrenches as I had before.
For our European friends 7/16", 1/2", 5/8" are close in size to 10, 13, and 17, and of course we also have a bunch more.
Maybe the metric system does make sense.
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I will not rest until we stop IDing engine sizes by liters. LITERS?!
It's an engine, not a g*d*mned bottle of fizzy water! >:(
Haha! I've always hated that, CI's are so much more descriptive. I have two LT-1 350 Buicks and a 364 Pontiac. I think those numbers describe the difference between them much more precisely that 5.7 and 6.0L, no? Celsius or Centigrade as it was known for centuries is easy to work with and great for labs but again is not as descriptive as there are only 100 degrees from freezing to boiling while they are 170 degrees Fahrenheit. English measure wins out in every way, even a Kg is a less precise and harder to grasp weight than a lb. A Kg is 2.2 lbs approximately.
As a matter of fact, let bring back quarts, Pints, and Gallons, man!
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I feel like a missionary in a maneater village now with an invite "we'd like to have you over for dinner".
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There are only two things that keep me from traveling to Europe. My lacking knowledge of the metric system and the fact that I don't speak European ;)
Rick
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Aww man I've tried so hard to stay out of this one. :rolleyes:
It seems that us Australians are the only ones currently of this "era" that have actually gone through the full conversion from one system to the other. Bob That 68 Monaro uses mostly 9/16 bolts to hold it together. I grew up knowing all the sizes and being able to just look at a nut and tell what size it was. The 2001 Monaro is all metric. Most of my life we have had to deal with both systems here in Oz.
With this in mind I feel me and my fellow countrymen probably have the most objective perspective on the matter.
A quart is roughly a litre (yes we spell it different to you). To a person buying that amount of milk the difference is in name only. In case like that who really cares what its called.
When we buy meat or cheese for instance it is nice being able to say I would like 300grams of ham or 200g of ham because guess what I might not want just a half or quarter pound.
When working in the building industry (I was a stone mason for a part of my life) Even the English (and I worked on the Tokyo bank and other fine buildings in London) agree that Metric is just so much easier and less prone to mistakes due to mathematical error. I never found a single Pom that was keen to go back to using the imperial system on a building site in 3 years there. Even though they wanted to keep miles so much that they deemed the change to Kms un-British.
My height is still 6 feet even though I without a shadow of a doubt find metric easier to use. My weight however is 96kgs because trying to use Stone and pounds is just so messy by comparison. Here people who drive 5 litre Holdens are proud of the fact that it is 5L. One of our most famous raceing/production cars (made famous by Peter Brock winning so much in it) is the Holden SLR 5000 Torana. One guess what the 5000 stands for. Due to things like this it has gone into our cultural identity more and more over the years.
We still refer to these motors as both 308's and 5Litres.
When the fat lady has all but been put to bed, having dealt with and lived with both systems I do prefer metric. Its just easier to use. Sorry guys but all else is just denial IMHO.
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"Sorry guys but all else is just denial IMHO."
:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzRAzVkwwGA
Well done, Aussie boy, here is your reward, thirty pieces of shiny chrome in imperial size! It's a gift, it's a gift, it's a gift nothing more ...
(http://www.mhkohl.com/images/102.jpg)
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I prefer to ask for a pound or half a pound of deli meat. I have to say that ordering 300gr (pretty much half a pound with the over) is proof of the pointless nature of metric. Most people buy a pound or half a pound of sliced deli meat to keep in the house. Ordering it in the hundreds of grams is neither more convenient or sensible, and has nothing in the nature of how metric is superior. It begs one to go into the market and ask for 12gr of baked ham. Or 70gr. That is rediculous, of course. No one would ask for such a small amount, as grams are a terrible unit for selling food. But the lb, which evolved as a unit for people like butchers, is fine.
As to the 9/16" wrench, this is also an instance of where imperial can be at first glance confusing, but, as NASA can attest, be made to work like metric if needed. Most people would never need one, and would never know or care about this. People who do this for a living would, like lab workers who function well with the micro-measurements that are exclusively metric. A good mechanic would know that size bolt, or the cars that use them. The other 99% of the world wouldn't, or would use an adjustable wrench/spanner and be fine.
Simillar to the bushel concept: most people don't know or care about different bushels for apples or wheat. This is pointed to as an area where metric makes more sense. But the apple orchard knows, and the grain farmer know there is a difference. Regular people don't. The old lady next door buys neither apples nor wheat by the bushel. Or the liter. It has no relationship to daily usage. And converting wholesale level processing to metric provides no benefit to the producer or distributor, or yield any "easy" concept to counting on ones fingers.
These are specialized areas, so out of the mainstream, that an argument could be made that is is perhaps "easier" to create an entirely new system that would only be used in those fields, and equally arbitrary in nature.
I keep hearing the argument that it is better because people got used to it, and that it was mandated, and you can use it. As Socrates would recognize halfway to hemlock's-ville, this is not any argument for its supposed superiority over imperial in daily usage: it sidesteps the issue entirely. It is not a superior system for daily usage.
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When we buy meat or cheese for instance it is nice being able to say I would like 300grams of ham or 200g of ham because guess what I might not want just a half or quarter pound.
Take Freud's comments with a grain of salt - the toilets flush backwards there, y'know ;D
I routinely see people order 1/8lb or even 1/3lb at the deli. Some even just say "give me 5 slices of ham, thin please". I, for one don't get all knotted up about precise measurements of luncheon meats.
Automotive powerplants sound so much cooler in CID - and cool is very important
426 Hemi
455 Super Duty
440 Six Pack
Boss 302 / 351
428 Cobra Jet
400 Ram Air
Rocket 350
We haven't even discussed breast sizes and penis length yet :o
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I now know why it always says "The Imperial Knights of the Ku Klux Klan"! And those crosses they burnt were of course metric. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
To quote Joey Ramone: The KKK took my meter away ...
;)
But to enhance the discussion and keeping in mind that this is a forum dedicated to scientific truth:
"Metrics in America
The cost to the US for not being on the metric system is no doubt high. Just last year, a Martian probe was destroyed because some of its navigational data was in feet, and some was in meters. All exported goods have to be labeled in metrics or they do not sell. We are slowly getting our act together. Almost all packaged goods have both the standard and metric measures on their label. The can of Root Beer I am drinking is labeled 12 FL OZ (355 mL).
In truth, the US is using the metric system extensively, just not totally. Doctors do all measures in metrics especially distributing medicine in cubic centimeters. Virtually all scientists in the US use metric measures exclusively. Track and field events have dropped yards and miles all together. I remember when running the mile in under four minutes was a big deal, now they do not run the mile anymore it is the 1600 meter event.
All new car speedometers are in both KPH and MPH, and many recent cars have KPH as the dominant measure. Ironically, speed limit signs are almost exclusively MPH, even on highways where distances are measured in kilometers. Here in Arizona, Highway 19 from Tucson to Nogales is marked in Kilometers. I used to live along this highway, and drove 14 km to work everyday, it is not difficult to adjust if everything is marked that way, yet I was annoyed that the speed limit was posted as 65 instead of 105 KPH. There is not a single KPH sign on the entire 100km stretch of highway.
In other respects, we have actually gone backwards. During the late 70's early 80's, there was a major effort to move metric. Weather forecasts would show both Fahrenheit and Celsius measures of temperature. Then broadcasters decided there were too many numbers being reported, people got overloaded, so they dropped all the Celsius numbers. I think the real reason was that it made the weather report shorter, thus giving more time for commercials.
The Metrics killer: The Decimal Inch
Manufacturing and some engineering disciplines have abandoned traditional measures as well, but not in favor of metrics. They have discovered an even better system of measure called the decimal inch. It has been discovered that the smallest distance of separation visible to the unaided eye is 0.01 inches, or 0.26 mm. What this means is that being accurate to within a hundredth of an inch is better than being within a millimeter. Four times better as a matter of fact. The only way metrics can be better is if rulers used half and quarter millimeters, but adding fractions defeats the whole purpose of decimal measurement. So now manufacturing and engineering have embraced the decimal inch, a standard inch divided into tenths and hundredths. This has set off a chain reaction, if manufacturing does not have to convert to metrics, why should we?
Top 10 reasons we should convert to the Metric System (with apologies to David Letterman)
10. People will finally understand my joke about driving attoparsecs per nanocenturies.
9. Gas will seem cheaper at 50 cents a liter.
8. Being 22 kilos overweight does not sound as bad as 50 lbs.
7. Defense will be easier if the offense has to drive 10 meters for a first down.
6. Arizona summers will not seem as bad when its only 40 degrees outside.
5. Its not "metric", its "Digital"!
4. Imagine all the exciting math you will do converting your favorite recipes to milliliters.
3. Less fractions to deal with like, "Do I need a five eighths socket or a nine sixteenths to loosen this nut?"
2. The boy band 98º will not be as popular calling themselves 36.7º.
1. Half a liter is more than a pint, which means, MORE BEER FOR EVERYBODY!
Its not metrics people are afraid of, it is the conversion.
I do not have to spend time writing why the metric system is superior to standard units. Anybody who has been schooled in both understands the advantages of metric units. Not only is metric measure easier, it is universally accepted everywhere, except in the United States.
So why do we avoid it? It is not because we are afraid of using the metric system, it is because we are afraid of the whole conversion process. In other words, we are afraid of a lot of math that goes along with the converting. People are not going to convert recipes to metric measures as I pointed out above. Land division has been done in acres and square miles for centuries now, and because all of the property is divided this way it will not change anytime soon. Traditional measures will be with us forever in some form or another, which means converting back and forth will be with us forever.
Converting to the metric system can only happen a little at a time, and one step at a time. I would start by dropping miles for kilometers on all US highways. Let's use that KM/H dial on our car. If kilometers catch on, meters instead of yards, and centimeters instead of inches will follow (except where the decimal inch rules). Once distances are metric, we can start working on liquid measures. We already buy 2 liter bottles of soda, everything else is easy. Weight will be tough, people are used to pounds. Same goes for Celsius temperatures. Because temperature measurement is not tied closely with other metric measures, it will take at least another decade or two to get rid of Fahrenheit.
Britain went to the Metric system officially in 1975, yet the old traditional measures are still a part of daily life in Britain today. I suspect that is how it will be in the US as well."
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Little Anthony & the Metrics just wouldn't sound right.
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Yeah, but would "Lovely Rita, foot maid"?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l87Vvb7JcDU
But if things like that are a concern to you, Dave, we could create a special law making the use of "National Meterball League" for the NFL optional. For a transitional time only, of course.
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I have both metric and SAE tools, and I WISH that GM had decided some time ago to use fasteners of one type or another. Dang cars require constant swapping back and forth.
Grumble grumble, mutiny mutiny.
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Gibson is no exception. Metric and imperial side by side ... Stevie Wonder and Macca could write a song about it.
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Oh, dang. I thought I would not have to tackle more nonsense, but I do. And lifted stuff yet? If only I hadn't been reading this hogwash for the last 15 years, but sadly you'll all have to deal now. For brevity, I will tackle but two, as many of the other points were addressed earlier anyway.
1: Just last year, a Martian probe was destroyed because some of its navigational data was in feet, and some was in meters.
Well, now it is about twelve years ago, but the example is wonderful both in what it suggests and the fire-storm that erupted shortly after and died even quicker. The probe was destroyed because of two separate data feeds, but the assumption was that the thing plowed into Mars The Martian's backyard because of the imperial data, and that imperial is bad somehow. The disturbing reaction then was we should all stop using imperial in favor of metric so that all those other Mars probes would not die. Or that we would have gotten there sooner using metric. Like all those other countries that have space programs that don't hitch hike on NASA vehicles and do stuff like this. The glowing truth that never got mentioned is that you can make, launch and land a interplanetary vessel using..IMPERIAL. You don't need metrics at all, in fact my argument - irrefutable and equally valid as the reverse - is that the thing crashed because of metric units.
2: All exported goods have to be labeled in metrics or they do not sell.
Again, this is ancient trade wars jive from the 70s. We mill board feet of lumber, and it goes overseas. Same as from Canada. You can express any measurement of wholesale imported goods in metric, or even old Russian if you wish. They sell. They always did, and they always will. No country imports US domestic labeled individual products unless they are purchased as salvage. Same for the US, where by law US Consumer info labeling must be placed on the can of beans, or bags of rogenbrot. And sometimes KitKats from the UK where the chocolate is BETTER.
Again, for scientific and bio-med, the measuring of particulate sizes lends itself to the small-minded nature of metrics. For daily usage, or commerce, the premise that it is better, easier, or we -the US - would benefit in any way from switching is false. I tend to be one of a small number of people who argue, and have argued, with the assumption that is seldom if ever challenged.
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It sure seems to mean something to him! ;)
Find the right subject, and the old badger will actually leave the mound ... ;D
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I do like driving in KM/H, it seems so much faster..... ;D
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No one would ask for such a small amount, as grams are a terrible unit for selling food. But the lb, which evolved as a unit for people like butchers, is fine.
I've had to do both in 2 different countries. In my experience its makes no difference and I personally find having the nice clean numbers of 100, 200 (or 250 which is of course a quarter of a Kilo :rolleyes:) ) or a half kilo actually more flexible than being locked in to JUST quarters halves and a pound. I mean asking for 7/16ths of a pound of bacon now that is absurdity. Whereas asking for 300gms is simple to understand. I dont particularly care or wish to necessarily argue about which system is better from a semantics point of view. Just what has been easier in my experience living with both systems for most of my life.
For what its worth imported consumables cannot be sold in Australia without metric weight being displayed. This is usually done on American goods with the use of a sticker which is applied over the original weight.
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Some even just say "give me 5 slices of ham, thin please". I, for one don't get all knotted up about precise measurements of luncheon meats.
We haven't even discussed breast sizes and penis length yet :o
Amazing as it may seem but the metric system also extends to being able to ask for 5 slices of Fritz as well ;)
I used Lunch meats as an example because it seems as good as anything that we do on a daily/weekly basis but cars breasts and penis's......feel free to digress. :)
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For what its worth imported consumables cannot be sold in Australia without metric weight being displayed. This is usually done on American goods with the use of a sticker which is applied over the original weight.
Amercian goods show both. Almost nobody pays any attention, but it's there. In most cases the convenient imperial measurement still determines the actual size. For example, you still buy a pound of rice, and 454g is also shown, rather than the metric measure being the easy amount to remember. Except in the drink industry, where we went to liter bottles.
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Makes sense then why each of us prefer the system in use in our countries. A 500ml drink here has um... whatever the fluid ounces measurement is, and because its not a round number we also ignore it.
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Take Freud's comments with a grain of salt - the toilets flush backwards there, y'know ;D
Is that metric or imperial pinch we are talking about here? :mrgreen:
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It was easier to change the quart upon conversion to plastic bottles to go liter and 2 liter. The 2 liter was sold initially as "THE BOSS." Occasionally you can hear the odd stick refer to a 2 liter bottle as a "Boss of Coke." But I grew up with the 19th century hangover of calling it all tonic anyway.
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It seems that us Australians are the only ones currently of this "era" that have actually gone through the full conversion from one system to the other.
Not true. Canada's conversion began in 1977 and took about 10 years to implement. Having grown up through this, I use both systems. I convert on the fly as required, I measure my pants in inches, my speed in km/h, my weight in lbs. (or kgs.), my height in feet/inches (or meters/centimeters) and my food and drink in kilos and litres (and it's litREs damnit ...... not litERs!). My daughter, however, and all the other "Gen Y-ers", don't have a clue about the Imperial system and probably will have much more difficulty with it than I ever did.
Canada drags its feet as well. Signs are changed, but try ordering 454 grms of baked ham somewhere. Try figuring out why the Coke and paint cans are such an odd non-metric size.
Want to know why? Because we're right beside the USA which is still on Imperial, that's why! Our biggest trading partner still dictates our internal policy and forces us to be able to readily use both systems ..... and, dare I say, we like it that way! We WANT to mix it up and to be different! We're usually so freaking boaring this gives us the opportunity to stand OUT in the crowd! Oh, and we don't order 454 gr. of ham. We order a half-kilo. We basically have abandoned the pound as a legitimate unit of weight. Inches, however, are perfectly acceptable although I don't think you can order ham by the inch. Re: coke and paint - again, the trading aspect. We manufacture, you buy from us - or at least, you might buy from us. It's easier for our production lines to market one size for both nations (ie: 330 ml. coke cans, 3.785 litre paint cans) and then just indicate metric and imperial on the labels. As Canadians, we don't question why we're getting a 3.785 litre can or paint - we just accept it and move on. Much less risky that way ....
I have to say that ordering 300gr (pretty much half a pound with the over) is proof of the pointless nature of metric.
See above. The pound means nothing to us (and most metric nations, I might add) and has been abandoned as a standard measurement.
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The pound means nothing to us (and most metric nations, I might add) and has been abandoned as a standard measurement.
Somebody better tell most of the grocery stores and delis in Ontario then. ;D
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UK'er here...
I haven't worked on an aircraft since 1981, so British Airways (ex BEA & BOAC, also other companies they looked after at LHR) had exotics American (720, 707, 747, DC10) British (VC10, BAC1/11 and Trident) and Anglo/European (Concorde) so I had to have Imperial, Metric, BA, Whitworth, Triwing, Phillips, Allen, Torx, Spline, Bristol, and whatever else now lurks rotting in my shed...
I'm now a security engineer and I don't even know the names of half the security key tools I have...
We have Pints and Litres in bars, miles on the roads, and it would be nice if something standardised...
We did get rid of the LSD (L=£ - S=shilling - D=Pence... Pence...?) - 240 pennies to the pound, 120 pennies in ten-bob, 60 pennies in a crown, 30 pennies in half-a-crown, 12 in a shilling; then we had a farthing, ha'pennie, pennie, thruppence, sixpence, a bob/shilling, a half-crown, crown, a ten bob note, and there was/is the Guinea - one pound and one shilling...
Tell me people - is US currency "METRIC"...?
Signs...? Most of the Scottish Islands removed the English/Gaelic signs and replaced them with Gaelic only, so if you do not know the phoenetics you might as well poch-ma-hon, and that spelling varies...
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The pound means nothing to us (and most metric nations, I might add) and has been abandoned as a standard measurement.
Somebody better tell most of the grocery stores and delis in Ontario then.
The point I'm trying to make is that - while there's plenty of us old guard left who understand the Imperial system and can easily slide between it and Metric - many don't use the pound as a base unit of measure. I live in Ontario and I go to deli's in Ontario - I know of what I speak from waiting behind soccer moms ordering 125 grams of blackforest ...... or 350 grams of mortadella. The point is, as a unit of measure in Canada, the pound is really quite obsolete.
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The point I'm trying to make is that - while there's plenty of us old guard left who understand the Imperial system and can easily slide between it and Metric - many don't use the pound as a base unit of measure. I live in Ontario and I go to deli's in Ontario - I know of what I speak from waiting behind soccer moms ordering 125 grams of blackforest ...... or 350 grams of mortadella. The point is, as a unit of measure in Canada, the pound is really quite obsolete.
We started using grams ;) way before the government tried to force us to use the metric system. I know it pretty well, I took a lot of chemistry in school and work in the medical field. It is nice for tiny amounts but Km's and Kg are ridiculous for measuring large weights and long distances. Why? Kilos are too big and kilometers are too small.
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Honestly tonight I wish the Kms were even smaller when I had the tread on one of my trailer tyres come off on the freeway on my way home. Took me 30 mins to do 7 kms. Felt like I had square wheels >:(