The Last Bass Outpost
Gear Discussion Forums => Bass Amps & Effects => Topic started by: drbassman on March 25, 2013, 04:59:21 AM
-
I'm thinking I'd like to try a full tube amp on down the road. I love the sound of my Mesa Walkabout, with just a tube pre-amp. As a youth, I naturally only played through full-tube amps (Ampeg). Thought it might be fun to try again. Been searching around for something reasonable and entry level. Any suggestions? I found the EBS line and Bugera. Anyone know anything about these buggers? Unlike Mark, I did like the tone of the new Bassman 100T at the full 100 watt setting, but the price is up there. Just wondering what you guys think.
-
I see a 70's MusicMan amp that looks nice. Anyone have experience with one of these?
-
Bill, You can't go wrong with a old MM amp much like a Bassman but a little beefier. A Ampeg V4B would be a great choice as would a B-25B. I rehearse with a B-25B, perfect for a small room I bet it would fill your needs nicely. He's my Ampeg B-25B with matching 2x15 cab. (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v102/godofthunder59/AmpegB25B003.jpg)
-
I knew you'd chime in. I thought the MM amp looked pretty good. At least we've got good folks around here to help us maintain these things! Thanks for all of the possibilities. I'll look into them too.
You think 25 - 50 watts would be enough for my little bar venue? I'm keeping my 300 watt Mesa for backup.
-
25w might be a little light, 50w would be the lowest I would go, 100w will get the job done with power to spare. Whats the MM rated at? I'm a little hazy on the models.
-
OK, dollar for dollar, the MM looks great. More watts per buck than the other vintage/new tube amps. Gonna do it.
-
:thumbsup:
-
Whoa there! MusicMan amps were not full tube amps. They had solid state preamps and tube output sections.
-
Whoa there! MusicMan amps were not full tube amps. They had solid state preamps and tube output sections.
Well, it might be in the wiring/schematic, but this looks like tube power and pre-amp to me (I know, I don't know what I'm talking about, but it won't be the first time!)
Here's the specs posted by the seller:
All Tube Operation (1 x 12ax7 / 4 x Telefunken EL34)
A LOUD 130 Watt RMS output at a switchable 4 or 8 ohms
Standby Switch
Ground Switch
Dual Hi/Lo Power Operation (65w/130w)
Normal Channel Features: Dual Inputs, Bright/Normal Switch, Volume, Treble, Mid, Bass
Bass Channel Features: Dual Inputs, Bright/Normal Switch, Volume, Treble, Mid, Bass, Master, Deep/Normal Switch
Sturdy Housing
Grounded Electrical Outlet
3-Prong Power Cord
Made in Anaheim, California, USA
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/drbassman/MMtubeamp_zpseacd4585.jpg)
-
I was just about to chime in on that Dave. The preamp was SS, some had a 12AX7 as a driver, and then (depending on the year) either 6CA7 or 6L6 power tubes. There were some full solid state amps in the line as well.
Doc, how much do you want to spend on this endeavor?
-
Yep, I read that the newer MM models had the transistor driver, but this one has the 12ax7. I wanted to keep it under $600 and this one works out. I'm gonna give it a shot. It can't sound any worse than my Mesa with tube pre-amp and SS power unit. If it doesn't work out, I can always try something else. It's a big market out there and I'm a fickle bass player! ;D I really want an Ampeg B-15 (what I had as a kid), but I'm just not gonna spend that kind of money.
-
Go for it, then. They do sound good, IMHO, better than a SS power section.
I only responded because you said you wanted a full tube amp. These have one driver tube in an otherwise SS preamp, that's not a full tube amp.
-
Go for it, then. They do sound good, IMHO, better than a SS power section.
I only responded because you said you wanted a full tube amp. These have one driver tube in an otherwise SS preamp, that's not a full tube amp.
Figures! There's always a catch. Should be fun though to play around with. I don't feel hosed by the price or the specs.
-
It is funny how things change for me. Before I got the Mesa Scout Walkabout with 15" ext cab, I had the SS Ampeg SVT Pro something or other (can't remember the exact model) with a 2x15" cab. It had a lot of volume, but the tone was NEVER what I expected or wanted. Fart, fart, fart. I was constantly disappointed with its sound/tone.
I went to the Mesa and it was a world of improvement. I really wanted the Mesa M-Pulse 600, but it was way overpriced, but it has a kickbutt sound. So, anyhow, this will be the next step for me. If I get hooked, who knows what crazy thing I might buy next?
-
...So, anyhow, this will be the next step for me. If I get hooked, who knows what crazy thing I might buy next?
:popcorn:
-
Here comes the Sunn
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sunn-2000s-Bass-Amp-/221205939730?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3380e6c612
-
:popcorn:
Ha, ha, Al! I'll try to keep you entertained!!!!
-
Here comes the Sunn
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sunn-2000s-Bass-Amp-/221205939730?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3380e6c612
Yours?
-
Nope. I have one like it. This looks like a nice example. Great all tube amp. Lots of power.
-
Seems like a good price for that 2000S and it looks like it's in really great shape.
A 200S would be a good option too. Less powerful than a 2000S but less expensive as well. They also sound great.
-
I'd be snagging this but I don't want to make the 300 mile round trip.
http://bassoutpost.com/index.php?topic=7878.15
-
It does look pretty cool. I've never played a Sunn amp, I was hooked on Ampeg as a youth and into my recent playing days. Mesa was my first non-Ampeg excursion.
-
I really liked my Mesa Walkabout as well and as you said it has a kick but sound. However in some of the acoustic settings with a lot of space the fan on that thing was just too loud (really). So I traded it in and got one of the new Roland 120's and new GK 200( like hieronymos'). One for home living room and the other for gigging around smaller venues.
-
I really liked my Mesa Walkabout as well and as you said it has a kick but sound. However in some of the acoustic settings with a lot of space the fan on that thing was just too loud (really). So I traded it in and got one of the new Roland 120's and new GK 200( like hieronymos'). One for home living room and the other for gigging around smaller venues.
Duh, I was supposed to get back to you about my fan noise and I just realized I forgot! My fan is not all tht loud, but we never play at a low volume.
-
Another vote for the Ampeg V4BH - tremendous sounding 100 watts. Just as nice sounding, but at 200 watts and no heavier is the Traynor YBA-200. I've owned both, and they are both fabulous amps. The Traynor is very well made, in Canada and isn't very expensive used because Traynor tends to fly under the radar.
-
Another vote for the Ampeg V4BH - tremendous sounding 100 watts. Just as nice sounding, but at 200 watts and no heavier is the Traynor YBA-200. I've owned both, and they are both fabulous amps. The Traynor is very well made, in Canada and isn't very expensive used because Traynor tends to fly under the radar.
Thanks mark. I looked at the Traynor online and it is a nice looking amp. Might be one to move up to later on if I get into the tube thing.
-
We're trying to keep those in Canada, Mark! Too many Yanks buying them up and taking them home already. :D
Personally, when it comes to classic Canadian amps, I prefer Garnet. Traynors are great, and tough as nails (they used to test amps by throwing them off the factory roof - if they could put the tubes back in and it worked it passed), but Garnets are just a tad better sounding to me and have (usually) better feature sets (i.e. there ain't no Traynor with on board reverb, or not many.... a few had master volumes, but most higher powered Garnets, 50 and up, did). In particular the Garnet 'stinger' distortion circuit is particularly good. The "Pro" line even had rocker EQ boost switches like Ampeg (later models; earlier ones just had push-pull switches on the bass, treble and vol knobs instead, but did the same, or similar thing).
... just don't bother with any Canadian (Traynor or Garnet) bass speaker cabs. Some Traynors were OK (better drivers in the higher end models) but Garnets were not so great unless you had a lot of them or really over rated (power handling wise) vs your amp. Love their guitar cabs though; again due to the speakers (I have a special love or 12" Marslands for guitar use).
-
Any of the Ampeg V-4 series would be good. The vintage V-4 and V-4B only vary my reverb and the midrange frequency tone control. The V-4BH is a completely different animal, much less bassy and more mid-focused as well as lower gain and power, but it is an option. The B-25 is as close to a B-15N as you'll get in a separate head, but be aware that it does have a different preamp and no more power than a B-15. Vintage Musicman amps do pretty well because they're designed for much more 'clean' power than their Fender contemporaries. Vintage Traynors are basically Marshall copies built much better with better parts. Their more recent amps like the YBA-200 have had serious issues with autobiasing, but they abandoned the concept for the second version and the 300 watt head. If you're adventurous, many old tube PA's make for excellent bass amps with very little modification.
-
BTW, "Bugera" is just Behringer's brand for their copies of SLM-era Ampegs,the SVT CL, SVT IIIPro and IVPro (which are just s/s amps with tube preamps anyway) which are made even more poorly than modern Ampeg tube amps, and that's saying something.
-
Thanks for the Bugera and Traynor info. If things go well with the MM, I might explore more options down the road. Having a couple amps with different characteristics is appealing. Got enough basses for now!
-
Vintage Traynors are basically Marshall copies built much better with better parts.
Mainly the YBA-1(A) Bassmaster series (and the YGA guitar versions, which were basically the same amp but with tremelo, and possibly different tone stack, though I doubt it). Other Traynors were distinctly Fender based (e.g. YGL-3 mk III: "Twin on steroids"). Traynor maintains that the influence went both ways (WRT Fender), though I wasn't there.
Garnet tended to be more Fender based in the early years, but with improvements to those old basic Fender designs, mostly in the power supply and input sections. The Herzog distortion unit, for example, was a Champ circuit with a different output transformer to drive another amp vs a speaker, and the Rebel series was based on a Fenderish 6L6 power section, but the preamp was very Garnet. Later there was some British amp influence, especially with the higher power models - so basically backwards to Traynor.
Anyway, to call either of these brands copies of something else is somewhat unfair because many improvements/modification in the circuit design were made, and it was mostly just the power sections that were similar (and in the case of many Traynors, the 4 input jacks on the front left that allowed daisy chaining the 2 input channels like a Plexi). If anything they were Fender/Marshall mashups more so than copies of one or the other.
If you're adventurous, many old tube PA's make for excellent bass amps with very little modification.
I use old tube PA heads exclusively, so I concur. I have a Bogen Challenger (LoZ inputs, so works for standard mics and my Gibson LP Triumph.... also good for the dirtiest guitar sound ever if that's what's required; you just gotta change the input jacks to 1/4" from whatever outdated jack type was on there originally; tube rectified tone monster, but only 33 watts, though IIIRC they also made a 50 and maybe higher powered models too, but in uglier, less portable chassis formats), a Garnet Rebel PA Reverb (same wattage but silicon rectified, reverb, master volume, and generally cleaner) and Garnet Sessionman Reverb Vocal System which is 6CA7/EL34 based vs 6L6 on the Rebel series (both Garnets have standard HiZ instrument level inputs; no mods required at all). I love the more neutral voicing of the EQ section, because I use them all for both Bass and Guitar, as well as keys or vocals sometimes. They all have master volumes and a 4 channel mixer input section which is also handy.
A good bud has the Traynor tube PA head, The YVM-1 Voicemaster, which is very nice sounding as well but no reverb (fx loop to patch in the stand alone Traynor reverb unit) and the inputs are all on the back which is annoying. He uses it mostly for keys but occasionally for a clean guitar.
-
Anyway, to call either of these brands copies of something else is somewhat unfair
Traynor got started making amps precisely because Marshalls could not be reliably imported. The entire YBA series was based on Marshall 50 and 100 watt guitar and PA amps. There were minor tweaks, but the YBA series follows closely to Marshall circuit topology, specifically in regards to the design changes that separate Marshall designs from contemporary Fender offerings such as preamp r/c values, phase inverter design and output stage feedback, which Marshalls were copied from intially: the JTM-45 was more different than the tweed Bassman, which it is a direct copy of, than the YBA-1 is from the JTM-45. The very reason YBA-1's which used to be much more affordable sell so for so much today is that they are easily converted to Marshall "plexi" specs. After the success of the YBA series, Traynor branched out in circuit design, with the high point being the YBA-3A using four 6KG6 tubes to develop over 250 watts to compete with the Ampeg SVT. Even then, the most exotic aspect was the choice of output tube, which was used for horizontal deflection in televisions at the time.
-
You guys blow me away! You should get together and write a book about tube amp history.
-
I was just reading about the YBA 300 and it has 12 6L6s inside. I bet that sucker is louder than god.
-
It's amazing how much Psycho and I can agree and disagree about something at the same time. But generally I got little arg with that that isn't somewhat semantic or nitpicky (like how you say that the entire YBA series was Marshallesque, but then say not the YBA-3.... and ignore the YGA series altogether - I get what you mean, but you didn't express it accurately).
My point stands because they did a lot of non-Marshall things like make Fenderish tube, and then solid state, reveb units.... and use 6L6 and 6V6 based power sections (as well as 6BQ5) on many amps after the YBA-1 and YBA-1A (and guitar, YGA, equivalents - which included a few combos). Basically everything after the first product lineup was no longer so heavily Marshall based (aside from the 4 input jacks); started to look at Fender more, even when the output was still 6CA7 ( the preamps were more Fenderish) like with the higher powered Guitar amps (YSR-1 Custom Reverb was a redesigned YBA-1 Bassmate using the same tube compliment but, apparently, a totally different circuit) and the YBA-3 Custom special and the YBA-3A Super Custom Special (both used 6CA7s though, not 6KG6s, though it wouldn't be that surprising to me if they switched from one to the other at some point).
-
You guys blow me away! You should get together and write a book about tube amp history.
I have learned to keep much of the info I share in easily digestible and less-than-nitpicky form. That doesn't mean that I view the exchanges here as a collaberative effort, nor am I open to the idea. I saw firsthand how the Ampeg book glossed over and essentially made up much of their information about Ampeg during the 70's, the company's most successful years, and ones that I have firsthand knowledge about, and I have also seen much of that info passed around since it was published as fact on the internet by many so-called experts who have absolutely zero expertise ( ie- a cabinet designer/prolific poster on TB who likes to slam Ampeg's designs from the 60's and 70's based on nothing more than his own self promotion). I have also seen far too many suggestions by people perceived to be authorities with little to no basis in fact gain traction with very ludicrous suggestions in print and online. I'd rather simply point people in the direction of the actual facts and clear up murky details with little used tools like science and history.
-
I was just reading about the YBA 300 and it has 12 6L6s inside. I bet that sucker is louder than god.
12 6L6GC's is roughly equal to six 6550A's, and is also the power tube complement of the Mesa Bass 400+, which is a 250 watt amp. The Traynor probably makes an honest 300 watts.
-
(like how you say that the entire YBA series was Marshallesque, but then say not the YBA-3
I said the power section differed. The YBA-3 (4xEL34) and YBA-3A (4x 6KG) are the same amp otherwise, and VERY much like Marshalls.
.... and ignore the YGA series altogether - I get what you mean, but you didn't express it accurately).
If you understand the meaning, that's all that's necessary. The YBA series came first and the YGA series was added later with added features to market it towards guitarists. Besides, since the topic of discussion of this thread is bass amps, that's what I was talking about.
My point stands because they did a lot of non-Marshall things like make Fenderish tube, and then solid state, reveb units.... and use 6L6 and 6V6 based power sections (as well as 6BQ5) on many amps after the YBA-1 and YBA-1A (and guitar, YGA, equivalents - which included a few combos)
I never said it didn't. What I DID say was that Traynor's YBA series were better made Marshall copies and you got all upset about it.
YBA-3 Custom special and the YBA-3A Super Custom Special (both used 6CA7s though, not 6KG6s, though it wouldn't be that surprising to me if they switched from one to the other at some point).
You are incorrect. I have seen, played through, and worked on a YBA-3A and it used 6KG6 output tubes and was not modified, but you don't have to take my word for it.
http://www.0rigami.com/vb/models.html#supercustomspecialyba-3a
http://www.0rigami.com/vb/traynor_customspecial_yba3a_all.pdf
-
I'll see your bet and raise you with the Official Source (from Yorkville/Traynor's own website) vs those fan pages:
http://www.yorkville.com/products.asp?type=71&cat=46&id=293#yba3
Like I said, they may have changed the power section partway through the life span of these models, but the (arguably, few) I have seen or used were 6CA7. They're just too heavy and expensive for me to bother with.
PS I wasn't upset about anything. You seem to not want to understand what I am saying but defend somewhat misleading categorical statements (and ignore accidental contradictions) you've made. Not all YBAs were Marshall based. Basically there was the YBA-1 and YBA-1A (also YBA-4 and YBA-5 which were the later combo versions of those same amps) and that's about it (if we're ignoring amps designed for/marketed as being for guitar). That leaves the YBA-2 (6V6), 2A (6BQ5), 2B (6BQ5) as having little Marshallness to them. ... and of course the YBA-3 and 3A which were kind of a Marshall/Ampeg mashup.
Also: A Plexi is a guitar amp so why did you bring it up if that's how you feel about me bringin up the YGAs (which are used by bassists FYI, because its the same amp as the YBA-1 as mentioned) :P (< rhetorical FYI)
Play fair, dude. It's not a competition for anyone to win or loose. I'm not trying to take your amp expert title away from you; nobody knows everything all the time and though you are very knowledgeable, and I appreciate that, you are not always the best at communicating that knowledge. I was trying to fill in the gaps, but it appears that you took it personal.
-
I'll see your bet and raise you with the Official Source (from Yorkville/Traynor's own website) vs those fan pages:
Those "fan pages" have been around much longer than Yorkville's "Traynor" section, and if you'll note the second link I posted was to a .pdf of the owners manual from Traynor.
http://www.yorkville.com/products.asp?type=71&cat=46&id=293#yba3
Further to that, there is absolutely NO mention of output tube types, but it does say that the YBA-3A had double the power of the YBA-3. How do you explain this feat using the same type of output tube?
Like I said, they may have changed the power section partway through the life span of these models, but the (arguably, few) I have seen or used were 6CA7. They're just too heavy and expensive for me to bother with.
The YBA-3A was designed from the ground up to compete with the Ampeg SVT (and it does quite well). I'll venture you've never seen one, only its similarly named smaller sibling, and thus, don't understand that it is a separate model and not some mythical "revision." The 6KG6 tubes actually have a slight green glow around the top plate cap under operation
You seem to not want to understand what I am saying but defend somewhat misleading categorical statements (and ignore accidental contradictions) you've made.
...and you have yet to grasp that I am speaking in broad generalities intentionally, and the information I am giving is correct while you fret over irrelavent minutae while making many categorically fundemantal incorrect statements.
Not all YBAs were Marshall based. Basically there was the YBA-1 and YBA-1A (also YBA-4 and YBA-5 which were the later combo versions of those same amps) and that's about it (if we're ignoring amps designed for/marketed as being for guitar). That leaves the YBA-2 (6V6), 2A (6BQ5), 2B (6BQ5) as having little Marshallness to them. ... and of course the YBA-3 and 3A which were kind of a Marshall/Ampeg mashup.
Let me put this a little more plain: I don't care. I could take you through the schematics and show how all the circuits, inlcuding the EL84 and 6V6 models, are still very similar to Marshall designs with only minor variation, but it would be a waste of my time as you would only try to find some way to cloud and prolong an issue that is only a minor point and not germane to this discussion anyway. It's clear that you like to throw around numbers and designations, and it's also clear that you don't actually understand what a lot of them mean, though you think you do.
Also: A Plexi is a guitar amp so why did you bring it up if that's how you feel about me bringin up the YGAs (which are used by bassists FYI, because its the same amp as the YBA-1 as mentioned) :P (< rhetorical FYI)
Marshall Plexis came in PA, Guitar, and Bass models, all based off the Bass (no pun intended) model.
Play fair, dude. It's not a competition for anyone to win or loose.
I'm not being competetive, just factual. If you don't like being corrected, learn what you're talking about.
I'm not trying to take your amp expert title away from you
There is no "title." The only competiton that exists is in your head and you have been very antagonistic, both to me and others, quite needlessly. I have absolutely NO doubts that if you had to do any actual work to a tube amp, you'd be completely lost and all of your internet bravado and stubbornness could not overcome the laws of physics.
nobody knows everything all the time and though you are very knowledgeable, and I appreciate that, you are not always the best at communicating that knowledge.
As I said earlier, I learned that much of my info must be simplified. In YOUR quest to expound my comments beyond that, you consistently post factually incorrect information and do so in an incredibly antagonizing manner. My days of writing near technical papers for the benefit of an anonymous internet audience are over. There is nothing that I have ever alluded to that some simple research cannot clarify for any interested party without me generating tomes that glaze over the eyes of the less technically inclined in the audience.
I was trying to fill in the gaps, but it appears that you took it personal.
There were no "gaps." My comment is accurate. Yours, however, are not. That's not personal.
-
Give it a rest, Jake.
-
I was just reading about the YBA 300 and it has 12 6L6s inside. I bet that sucker is louder than god.
It is. I sold mine last year because it was TOO loud - would be great for a stadium gig, but even in the largest of the venues I play in and the biggest stages I never had the master past 10 o'clock. Very good clean tone though - and well built and engineered. The DIY biasing LEDs are a great touch. And, around half the weight of an SVT head.
-
You DO realize you're giving me GAS, don't you Mark?
-
Here's a cool article on the history of Yorkville Sound if you're into Traynor history.
http://www.msretailer.com/msr/jack-long-%E2%80%A2-chairman-long-mcquade-and-yorkville-sound/
-
Here's a cool article on the history of Yorkville Sound if you're into Traynor history.
http://www.msretailer.com/msr/jack-long-%E2%80%A2-chairman-long-mcquade-and-yorkville-sound/
I am impressed with the Traynors. A lot of amp, watts and features for the money! I live close enough to Buffalo and a dealer to try one out some day.
-
Back in high school, we used to dumpster dive at the factory because they'd throw out working parts that just didn't meet QC for whatever trivial reason. Replaced a lot of speakers that way before they got security guards (although I occaionally had to patch little tears/holes in the cones from kicking around in the bin; the more amazing thing is that some weren't damaged at all).
-
Back in high school, we used to dumpster dive at the factory because they'd throw out working parts that just didn't meet QC for whatever trivial reason. Replaced a lot of speakers that way before they got security guards (although I occaionally had to patch little tears/holes in the cones from kicking around in the bin; the more amazing thing is that some weren't damaged at all).
Wow, cool! It is amazing what manufacturers do. Freebies as a kid were always great fun!
-
Audio samples of YBA-300 and YBA-200 from a German review of the Traynors .....
http://www.bonedo.de/audio/1fcd893535b338752f158e6e63e661c6/TraynorYBA300Flat.mp3
http://www.bonedo.de/audio/a634bf5c6d7b679142a00ec4ce35f2af/TraynorYBA200_2_FLAT.mp3
http://www.bonedo.de/audio/1fcd893535b338752f158e6e63e661c6/TraynorYBA300FullGain.mp3
http://www.bonedo.de/audio/a634bf5c6d7b679142a00ec4ce35f2af/TraynorYBA200_2_GAINFULL.mp3
-
Audio samples of YBA-300 and YBA-200 from a German review of the Traynors .....
Oh yeah, I love the last two and first two are pretty nice, too. I know the bass and speakers make a difference (assuming the recordings were field, not DI), but the tone is really what I've been looking for. I got the Music Man tonight, I'll hook it up tomorrow and report! BTW, it's in great shape, not abused at all, some faint discoloration on the chrome part and aging on the grill, but no mistreatment or even dings, etc.