The Last Bass Outpost
Main Forums => The Outpost Cafe => Topic started by: Dave W on July 09, 2015, 04:07:36 PM
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The Lost Girls (http://highline.huffingtonpost.com/articles/en/the-lost-girls/)
I don't want to put names in the subject line since this involves a registered member here, but I urge you to read it.
If it's too long for you here's a summary (http://www.salon.com/2015/07/09/the_explosive_runaways_rape_story_will_joan_jett_speak_up_for_her_bandmates_now/).
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The article includes Thunderbird broken headstock content too
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Powerful article...
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Everyone knew Fowley was a total dirtbag but this is really the cherry on top, no pun intended. I worked with the Runaways at The Whisky three separate bookings in '77 and mainly dealt with Kent Smythe, their road manager mentioned in the article. He held them in utter contempt. Cherie Curry quit during sound check for the last gigs and Joan Jett just picked up the ball and ran with it.
After one of the Friday night shows I was sitting on the backstage stairs shooting the shit with Smythe. Elvis Costello came barreling up the stairs on his way to their dressing room. As he passed us Kent said to him, "They're definitely NOT 'This Year's Model'." Didn't faze Elvis.
On a similar note, when Camille graduated from Boston University I sprang for the graduation shot of her receiving her diploma from the head of the department. She didn't want anything to do with it. Turned out the asshole had sexually harassed her. I never asked what it exactly was he did but she's no shrinking violet.
Forewarned is forearmed, especially when it comes to our daughters. Remember what dogs we could be!
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I already knew Fowley was a dirtbag too and that story was sickening. Words don't do justice to the anger that stokes in me. My band covered "Cherry Bomb" with all the irony that a bunch of redneck punks could never fathom. I've always treated women with the respect I want for myself and I'm big enough to enforce that policy with others. Awful.
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I'm not surprised one bit. Fowley looked exactly like he was. And even back then it was clear to me that The Runaways were puppets at his mercy, molesting included. But I believe that even as a 16 year old you could sense that the man was evil and scum, Frau Fuchs realized that probably earlier than others, but the girls went for a Faustian pact (for a while at least). The Runaways film was surprisingly light on that shady part, but it seems that band-internally it was and remained a non-subject, never mind how unsurprising it all is. I don't doubt Frau Fuchs' story either. That JJ refuses to confirm it is again no surprise - she was probably just more hellbent than her bandmate in selling her soul and took it as part of the deal, especially if it is done to someone else and not her. JJ wanted fame at any - even the highest - price and she got it from Fowley. Stalking Suzi Quatro (and looking like her) only gets you that far.
There are people you just look at and your sensory warning system goes off - Kim Fowley was an arch example. Bill Cosby was way better at hiding it.
BTW: I wouldn't be surprised if there were male bands with similar experiences with gay managers/svengalis too. And that it remains hushed up.
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Fowley spent some time leaching around Chicago. I know he promised to make some people stars again for 75%, and was laughed at. He came into contact with my singer at the time, who described him as looking like "a gay basketball player", and took no interest in any of his offers.
Anyone who's spent any time in the music business, even at the entry points, will find these kinds of parasites. Music is a wonderful thing, but the life can destroy your soul.
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Fowley lived to be 75 while good people die young. It's a sad fact of life.
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That's an interesting commentary on it:
"And there is no forgiveness for Jett’s chilly response to Fox’s public account: she says she did not witness the event as it was depicted (my emphasis) and refers all other questions to Fox, since it was Fox’s story. It is a statement crafted to deflect legal blame, and the Twitterverse pounced on its guarded insincerity, a cardinal sin social media will never forgive."
http://persephonemagazine.com/2015/07/the-runaways-complicated-legacy/
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That's an interesting commentary on it:
"And there is no forgiveness for Jett’s chilly response to Fox’s public account: she says she did not witness the event as it was depicted (my emphasis) and refers all other questions to Fox, since it was Fox’s story. It is a statement crafted to deflect legal blame, and the Twitterverse pounced on its guarded insincerity, a cardinal sin social media will never forgive."
http://persephonemagazine.com/2015/07/the-runaways-complicated-legacy/
Doesn't surprise me a bit. I heard about the story b/c of a Facebook post by Babes In Toyland bassist Maureen Herman. She's really enraged at JJ.
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If nothing else, I hope and pray there's a Hell simply because Kim Fowley deserves to be stuck there with a remembrance of his every deed for the rest of eternity.
I'm not surprised by Jett's response either. I got the impression long ago that her Faustian bargain extended into her solo career as well and I've never been much of a fan as a result.
I corresponded with Jackie a few years ago. Her aunt worked for my parents and I worked a lot with her when I was young, but we'd lost touch over the years. Ms. Fuchs passed on my number and I was able to catch up with my old friend. As far as she knew I was a faceless nobody on the internet and she still took the time to respond and do me a nice favor, which (to me) spoke highly of her. I hope she is able to make some level of peace with this now and find healing. She deserves it.
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Jett has now issued a statement (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/joan-jett-statement-rape_55a08c7be4b0b8145f72dd93)
Too little, too late and she's still in denial.
Look, there have been a number of public allegations of rape in the past couple of years that have turned out to be false. This isn't one of them. It was witnessed by a number of people who have confirmed Jackie Fuchs' account, including Cherie Currie. There's no doubt it happened and no doubt Jett was there.
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A couple of interesting responses - one from Evelyn McDonnell, author of Queens of Noise and referenced in the "Lost Girls" article: https://populismblog.wordpress.com/2015/07/10/statement-on-the-lost-girls/ (https://populismblog.wordpress.com/2015/07/10/statement-on-the-lost-girls/)
And one by writer (?) Chris Morris: http://watusichris.tumblr.com/post/123795611192/victim?og=1&fb_action_ids=10204510353859974&fb_action_types=tumblr-feed%3Apost (http://watusichris.tumblr.com/post/123795611192/victim?og=1&fb_action_ids=10204510353859974&fb_action_types=tumblr-feed%3Apost)
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I found this comment of Evelyn's to the point: "Jackie herself did not speak about this until now. Joan was also 16, perhaps stoned, possibly traumatized. She is not the villain here."
While the whole thing stinks, I can't claim to put myself in the mindset of a teen-aged girl at the time this happened. For all I know it was traumatic enough that some of those present may have unwittingly blanked it from their memory or otherwise found ways to deal with it without admitting it. I can't say, and I won't presume to say for them.
I also can't presume to speak for or guess at the emotions or motivations of Ms. Fuchs; that's hers alone. I can only wish her the best and hope that some good for her will emerge from its public unveiling.
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I’ve been reading Vickie & Jackie’s post on FB and learning more then I ever wanted to know about Kim Fowly, Fowly was one sick asshole going to their parents & making the case why they should let him manage that Band and look after their Kids and then have him & the roadies treat them like shit, just awful, one of the roadies taped Jackie’s hysterical blow up in Japan and after she was out of the band they would play it and laugh about it before rehearsals, that’s beyond cruel it’s evil,
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That probably sums it up:
"They were glad it wasn't them. He was their ticket to being rock stars, touring, recording -- living their dream. They thought this was part of rock and roll, that she got this messed up, too bad for her."
Of course it was California/Hollywood Babylon at the height of decadence and Led Zep wrote songs ("Sick Again") about teenage groupies which probably weren't stonecold-sober either when "socializing" with the band. And spiking girls' drinks to get what you wanted wasn't rare either - anybody remember Roman Polansaki? Bill Cosby was not an innovator regarding this.
What makes this stand out so awfully was the amount of witnesses who knew Frau Fuchs and the fact that Fowley should have been her guardian rather than molesting her.
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This remark by Jackie Fuchs seems especially relevant---(found at the bottom of the article in the link)
"If we have any hope at all of putting an end to incidents like these, we need to stop doubting the accusers and start holding rapists, abusers and bullies accountable. What we don't need to do is point fingers at those who weren't to blame for their actions."
http://jezebel.com/jackie-fuchs-on-former-bandmates-being-a-bystander-is-1717443741
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http://jezebel.com/jackie-fuchs-on-former-bandmates-being-a-bystander-is-1717443741
This article has quotes which show Ms. Fuchs to be both thoughtful and classy. I'm impressed.
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This article has quotes which show Ms. Fuchs to be both thoughtful and classy. I'm impressed.
She graduated Summa Cum Laude from UCLA with a double major in Linguistics and Italian, with a specialization in computing...and was in Obama's class at Harvard law for her J.D. Doesn't make her necessarily classy but she ain't dumb. BTW I agree 100% with your first post.
That probably sums it up:
"They were glad it wasn't them. He was their ticket to being rock stars, touring, recording -- living their dream. They thought this was part of rock and roll, that she got this messed up, too bad for her."
They were 15 YEARS OLD and under the spell of a Svengali. There were a lot of basic emotions at work, fear probably at the top of the list.
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They were 15 YEARS OLD and under the spell of a Svengali. There were a lot of basic emotions at work, fear probably at the top of the list.
You bet. Teenage girls even more so than boys.
I've read what's been revealed in the past couple of years here with the Catholic sex abuse scandals in Minnesota. Men (and a few women) coming out with their stories years later, having hidden it because of shame, and it almost always turns out that the accused priest was already known by the church as an abuser. When someone is in a position of authority over you, it has to be difficult to cope with what's happened.
This remark by Jackie Fuchs seems especially relevant---(found at the bottom of the article in the link)
"If we have any hope at all of putting an end to incidents like these, we need to stop doubting the accusers and start holding rapists, abusers and bullies accountable. What we don't need to do is point fingers at those who weren't to blame for their actions."
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We certainly don't need to blame victims for being raped. But I can't agree that we should stop doubting accusers. There have been too many high profile cases recently where the accusations turned out to be false. Just off the top of my head, there's the phony story that Rolling Stone published and later apologized for, the outrageous lies told by the Columbia U. "mattress girl" and her sicko supporters, and and admitted child abuser Lena Dunham 's phony rape story that her publisher pulled from the second printing of her book.
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^
The Rolling Stone story was due to incredible incompetence on the part of the reporter. As for accused rapists, Jameis Winston is still high on the list as far as I'm concerned. Not a fan.
The article goes way beyond the Winston case, noting that the vast majority of accused rapists are actually guilty. Personally, I believe in Blackstone's Formulation---
"It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer"
But it really bothers me that often rape cases don't seem to be taken seriously enough and it's the victim herself who seems to be put on trial. Of course the idiotic Rolling Stone article by the incompetent reporter does nothing but reverse whatever progress might have been made. I hope this "reporter" never has a job again even remotely connected to journalism.
A point from the article which I think should be noted----
"A third of rape victims contemplate suicide, and 13% will actually attempt it. The suicide rate for the public at large? About 0.1%."
My thoughts on this is that I can only wish the very worst for people who actually are guilty, whether they get charged for the crime or not.
http://deadspin.com/jameis-winston-is-not-a-victim-1666874524
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^
The Rolling Stone story was due to incredible incompetence on the part of the reporter. As for accused rapists, Jameis Winston is still high on the list as far as I'm concerned. Not a fan.
The article goes way beyond the Winston case, noting that the vast majority of accused rapists are actually guilty. Personally, I believe in Blackstone's Formulation---
"It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer"
But it really bothers me that often rape cases don't seem to be taken seriously enough and it's the victim herself who seems to be put on trial. Of course the idiotic Rolling Stone article by the incompetent reporter does nothing but reverse whatever progress might have been made. I hope this "reporter" never has a job again even remotely connected to journalism.
A point from the article which I think should be noted----
"A third of rape victims contemplate suicide, and 13% will actually attempt it. The suicide rate for the public at large? About 0.1%."
My thoughts on this is that I can only wish the very worst for people who actually are guilty, whether they get charged for the crime or not.
http://deadspin.com/jameis-winston-is-not-a-victim-1666874524
I agree 100%.
I also believe there are far more rapists who never get punished than their are innocent men who are are falsely accused. Sexual assaults committed in the military against both women and men are a prominent example of that IMO.
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I agree 100%.
I also believe there are far more rapists who never get punished than their are innocent men who are are falsely accused. Sexual assaults committed in the military against both women and men are a prominent example of that IMO.
My father never told many stories. But one that always stuck with me was when he once stopped a girl from being raped. He was an MP in the army and had to stand up to five guys. Of course he was armed, but some of them were, too. I suppose he was pretty bad ass. But he was no show-off, only doing what was right.
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I'm sure there are more rapes occurring than are reported. Still, there has to be evidence to charge someone, as with any other crime. You can't just automatically believe an accuser. Remember the rush to judgment against the Duke lacrosse three and what they had to go through to clear themselves. Imagine if their families had been poor.
Don't get me started on Jameis Winston. From what I've read, there was a conspiracy to hide evidence that should have resulted in him being charged.
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I'm sure there are more rapes occurring than are reported. Still, there has to be evidence to charge someone, as with any other crime. You can't just automatically believe an accuser. Remember the rush to judgment against the Duke lacrosse three and what they had to go through to clear themselves. Imagine if their families had been poor.
Don't get me started on Jameis Winston. From what I've read, there was a conspiracy to hide evidence that should have resulted in him being charged.
I read quite a lot about the conspiracy, too. It was pretty pathetic all that happened. Now Winston is in the pros of course. His replacement at FSU just got kicked off the team for punching a woman in a bar like she was an opponent in a boxing ring. All on video, although I have no desire to see it again myself.
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I'm sure there are more rapes occurring than are reported. Still, there has to be evidence to charge someone, as with any other crime. You can't just automatically believe an accuser. Remember the rush to judgment against the Duke lacrosse three and what they had to go through to clear themselves. Imagine if their families had been poor.
They would have ended up in prison like the West Memphis Three, who were definitely innocent. I'm not sure those Duke guys were. I do know they were privileged jock slime balls bound for Wall Street who had to take a very slight detour.
Jameis I won't comment on. I'm a Gator, we have enough problems of our own.
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They would have ended up in prison like the West Memphis Three, who were definitely innocent.
Who, BTW, had to make a "guilty" plea to be released from prison. Arkansas couldn't bear the thought of being sued by the men who were innocent children it railroaded on its 'righteous' witch hunt. If you watch the "Paradise Lost" documentaries, skip to the last one first.
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Who, BTW, had to make a "guilty" plea to be released from prison. Arkansas couldn't bear the thought of being sued by the men who were innocent children it railroaded on its 'righteous' witch hunt. If you watch the "Paradise Lost" documentaries, skip to the last one first.
Yeah, the legal/political system continues to amaze as to who gets punished, for what, and how long.
Durham is a company town. Duke's interests are the #1 priority and it was in Duke's interest to protect their most desired customer demographic, the rich.
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You bet. Teenage girls even more so than boys.
I've read what's been revealed in the past couple of years here with the Catholic sex abuse scandals in Minnesota. Men (and a few women) coming out with their stories years later, having hidden it because of shame, and it almost always turns out that the accused priest was already known by the church as an abuser. When someone is in a position of authority over you, it has to be difficult to cope with what's happened.
I read and hear about this stuff and it always makes me wonder. During my complete childhood and youth I was never in a situation where someone might have been in a position to molest me. Not because I was so protected, I had fist fights and brushes with the law, contact with drugs etc. Jokingly, I always say "I was already sexually unattractive as a child, no one went after me even back then." Essentially, I was respectless of adults and had a disdain for all of them, I kept my distance. I did not think they should wield any power over me; age and experience meant nothing to me (folly, I know, but that is how I was). I didn't have a trust relationship with anyone adult - not even my parents, you're darn right I was a loner! - that would have allowed exploitation. (I guess you could have forcibly physically raped me though.)
I remember one evening in Munich (it was the week Never Mind the Bollocks came out, I remember being disappointed about its "glam rock" sound when I had expected something like the MC5) - I was 16 - where an adult in a bar asked (a teacher, he said) whether we would like to come to his apartment. I could immediately tell he wasn't after me, but after my friend. We went there, he offered us drinks (not that I didn't drink back then, but I just didn't want to be invited for a drink), I declined and got itchy to leave. My thought was, why should an adult show any interest in us unless ... In the end, I basically dragged my friend out of the apartment by his (long blond) hair (the "teacher" did not stop us, he just looked kind of sad at us departing). That was my one and only close encounter. Certainly harmless by other people's experiences, I know.
My parents weren't great or especially conscious pedagogues (as a middle child you learn quickly that you are not the be- and end-all of the family! :mrgreen: ), they were pretty much laissez faire, but educated by their own behavior and conduct (leading by example), but one thing they did happily not imbue me with was respect for authorities (real or perceived) or the adult world (I guess the Nazi experience - a whole nation being molested and misused - and their disdain for the bigotted Catholic Church had a lot to do with that). They gave me a sceptic outlook on things.
A lot of these victim reports - discounting scenarios where you are pinned down to the ground and raped - share that people were either in fear or awe of authority or found adult interest in them somehow a positive thing. I was so alienated from everything, I just wanted to be left alone. And for the very overwhelming part, that is what people did.
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Chick fight!!! :popcorn:
http://www.vintagevinylnews.com/2015/07/cherie-currie-adamantly-denies-that-she.html?utm_content=bufferc9a8b&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer
Not sure whether polygraphs are the solution to this type of dispute. Typical American Californian idea.
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Who, BTW, had to make a "guilty" plea to be released from prison. Arkansas couldn't bear the thought of being sued by the men who were innocent children it railroaded on its 'righteous' witch hunt. If you watch the "Paradise Lost" documentaries, skip to the last one first.
Yeah, that left a sour taste. And the way authorities used a hovering death penalty over one of them as a bargaining tool, horrible.
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This is a perfect example of how social media can be bad for everyone. The last thing Jackie or anyone else needs is to get into a "she said - she said" exchange in social media. It will end badly, as just about all such exchanges do.
It was A. Lincoln who said "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool then to speak out and remove all doubt?"
This is just such an event - on ALL sides.
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Horrific but I'm not surprised, even to my young eyes the whole Runaways thing seemed odd. I hope Jackie finds some healing.
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Assuming that my former teenage fantasy/legal colleague is right, she perhaps stayed silent for way too long?
It's hard for me to say who is wrong and who is right here. I don't doubt for a minute that Fowley, given half the chance, would have molested one of the girls under his patronage, but whether Cherie, Sandy (never one to take much interest in hetero-sex) and Joan (ditto) sat there and watched, who knows? Subjectively, Jackie might have indeed seen something, but she was drugged out of her mind and barely conscious. Not remembering much of the rape (which I don't doubt happening) and having a vivid recollection of who was actually in the room doesn't necessarily go too well together.
Doesn't excuse Fowley or any other bystander who just watched.
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From the original article:
Currie claims that she spoke up and stormed out of the room.
Currie says the girls, who were then all 16 and 17, never talked about how to handle the rape. There was no decision or strategy. The unspoken rule was simply, “you forget it and you move on,” Currie explains. “I pushed it out of my mind the best I could.”
and this footnote:
Currie found another way to shield herself from Fowley: beginning a relationship with Anderson. “I believed in a way that I was protecting myself because he wouldn’t let something like [the assault on Jackie] happen if I’m with him,” she says.
There were other witnesses, including Krome, who place Currie there. And then there's the part about Currie's book and Jackie's threatened legal action which caused Currie to get affidavits from two witnesses.
So I just don't believe Currie's denials now.
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They would have ended up in prison like the West Memphis Three, who were definitely innocent. I'm not sure those Duke guys were. I do know they were privileged jock slime balls bound for Wall Street who had to take a very slight detour.
Jameis I won't comment on. I'm a Gator, we have enough problems of our own.
The Duke guys were fully exonerated by the state attorney general. Nifong, the prosecutor, who withheld evidence that proved their innocence, was disbarred and briefly jailed. That's almost unheard of. The accuser has a long criminal history and is now in prison for murder.
I have no love for frat boy party jocks and their culture, but I absolutely despise dishonest prosecutors.