The Lost Girls - please read

[uwe]

That probably sums it up:

"They were glad it wasn't them. He was their ticket to being rock stars, touring, recording -- living their dream. They thought this was part of rock and roll, that she got this messed up, too bad for her."

Of course it was California/Hollywood Babylon at the height of decadence and Led Zep wrote songs ("Sick Again") about teenage groupies which probably weren't stonecold-sober either when "socializing" with the band. And spiking girls' drinks to get what you wanted wasn't rare either - anybody remember Roman Polansaki? Bill Cosby was not an innovator regarding this.

What makes this stand out so awfully was the amount of witnesses who knew Frau Fuchs and the fact that Fowley should have been her guardian rather than molesting her.

[westen44]

This remark by Jackie Fuchs seems especially relevant---(found at the bottom of the article in the link)


"If we have any hope at all of putting an end to incidents like these, we need to stop doubting the accusers and start holding rapists, abusers and bullies accountable.  What we don't need to do is point fingers at those who weren't to blame for their actions."


http://jezebel.com/jackie-fuchs-on-former-bandmates-being-a-bystander-is-1717443741

[Pilgrim]

http://jezebel.com/jackie-fuchs-on-former-bandmates-being-a-bystander-is-1717443741

This article has quotes which show Ms. Fuchs to be both thoughtful and classy. I'm impressed.

[dadagoboi]

This article has quotes which show Ms. Fuchs to be both thoughtful and classy. I'm impressed.

She graduated Summa Cum Laude from UCLA with a double major in Linguistics and Italian, with a specialization in computing...and was in Obama's class at Harvard law for her J.D.  Doesn't make her necessarily classy but she ain't dumb.  BTW I agree 100% with your first post.

That probably sums it up:

"They were glad it wasn't them. He was their ticket to being rock stars, touring, recording -- living their dream. They thought this was part of rock and roll, that she got this messed up, too bad for her."

They were 15 YEARS OLD and under the spell of a Svengali.  There were a lot of basic emotions at work, fear probably at the top of the list.

[Dave W]

.....
They were 15 YEARS OLD and under the spell of a Svengali.  There were a lot of basic emotions at work, fear probably at the top of the list.

You bet.  Teenage girls even more so than boys.

I've read what's been revealed in the past couple of years here with the Catholic sex abuse scandals in Minnesota. Men (and a few women) coming out with their stories years later, having hidden it because of shame, and it almost always turns out that the accused priest was already known by the church as an abuser. When someone is in a position of authority over you, it has to be difficult to cope with what's happened.

This remark by Jackie Fuchs seems especially relevant---(found at the bottom of the article in the link)


"If we have any hope at all of putting an end to incidents like these, we need to stop doubting the accusers and start holding rapists, abusers and bullies accountable.  What we don't need to do is point fingers at those who weren't to blame for their actions."

...

We certainly don't need to blame victims for being raped. But I can't agree that we should stop doubting accusers. There have been too many high profile cases recently where the accusations turned out to be false. Just off the top of my head, there's the phony story that Rolling Stone published and later apologized for, the outrageous lies told by the Columbia U. "mattress girl" and her sicko supporters, and and admitted child abuser Lena Dunham 's phony rape story that her publisher pulled from the second printing of her book.

[westen44]

^
The Rolling Stone story was due to incredible incompetence on the part of the reporter.  As for accused rapists, Jameis Winston is still high on the list as far as I'm concerned.  Not a fan. 

The article goes way beyond the Winston case, noting that the vast majority of accused rapists are actually guilty.  Personally, I believe in Blackstone's Formulation---

"It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer"

But it really bothers me that often rape cases don't seem to be taken seriously enough and it's the victim herself who seems to be put on trial.  Of course the idiotic Rolling Stone article by the incompetent reporter does nothing but reverse whatever progress might have been made.  I hope this "reporter" never has a job again even remotely connected to journalism. 

A point from the article which I think should be noted----

"A third of rape victims contemplate suicide, and 13% will actually attempt it.  The suicide rate for the public at large?  About 0.1%."

My thoughts on this is that I can only wish the very worst for people who actually are guilty, whether they get charged for the crime or not. 

http://deadspin.com/jameis-winston-is-not-a-victim-1666874524

[dadagoboi]

^
The Rolling Stone story was due to incredible incompetence on the part of the reporter.  As for accused rapists, Jameis Winston is still high on the list as far as I'm concerned.  Not a fan. 

The article goes way beyond the Winston case, noting that the vast majority of accused rapists are actually guilty.  Personally, I believe in Blackstone's Formulation---

"It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer"

But it really bothers me that often rape cases don't seem to be taken seriously enough and it's the victim herself who seems to be put on trial.  Of course the idiotic Rolling Stone article by the incompetent reporter does nothing but reverse whatever progress might have been made.  I hope this "reporter" never has a job again even remotely connected to journalism. 

A point from the article which I think should be noted----

"A third of rape victims contemplate suicide, and 13% will actually attempt it.  The suicide rate for the public at large?  About 0.1%."

My thoughts on this is that I can only wish the very worst for people who actually are guilty, whether they get charged for the crime or not. 

http://deadspin.com/jameis-winston-is-not-a-victim-1666874524

I agree 100%. 

I also believe there are far more rapists who never get punished than their are innocent men who are are falsely accused.  Sexual assaults committed in the military against both women and men are a prominent example of that IMO.

[westen44]

I agree 100%. 

I also believe there are far more rapists who never get punished than their are innocent men who are are falsely accused.  Sexual assaults committed in the military against both women and men are a prominent example of that IMO.

My father never told many stories.  But one that always stuck with me was when he once stopped a girl from being raped.  He was an MP in the army and had to stand up to five guys.  Of course he was armed, but some of them were, too.  I suppose he was pretty bad ass. But he was no show-off, only doing what was right.   

[Dave W]

I'm sure there are more rapes occurring than are reported. Still, there has to be evidence to charge someone, as with any other crime. You can't just automatically believe an accuser. Remember the rush to judgment against the Duke lacrosse three and what they had to go through to clear themselves. Imagine if their families had been poor.

Don't get me started on Jameis Winston. From what I've read, there was a conspiracy to hide evidence that should have resulted in him being charged.

[westen44]

I'm sure there are more rapes occurring than are reported. Still, there has to be evidence to charge someone, as with any other crime. You can't just automatically believe an accuser. Remember the rush to judgment against the Duke lacrosse three and what they had to go through to clear themselves. Imagine if their families had been poor.

Don't get me started on Jameis Winston. From what I've read, there was a conspiracy to hide evidence that should have resulted in him being charged.

I read quite a lot about the conspiracy, too.  It was pretty pathetic all that happened.  Now Winston is in the pros of course.  His replacement at FSU just got kicked off the team for punching a woman in a bar like she was an opponent in a boxing ring.  All on video, although I have no desire to see it again myself. 

[dadagoboi]

I'm sure there are more rapes occurring than are reported. Still, there has to be evidence to charge someone, as with any other crime. You can't just automatically believe an accuser. Remember the rush to judgment against the Duke lacrosse three and what they had to go through to clear themselves. Imagine if their families had been poor.

They would have ended up in prison like the West Memphis Three, who were definitely innocent.    I'm not sure those Duke guys were.  I do know they were privileged jock slime balls bound for Wall Street who had to take a very slight detour.

Jameis I won't comment on.  I'm a Gator, we have enough problems of our own.

[Psycho Bass Guy]

They would have ended up in prison like the West Memphis Three, who were definitely innocent. 

Who, BTW, had to make a "guilty" plea to be released from prison.  Arkansas couldn't bear the thought of being sued by the men who were innocent children it railroaded on its 'righteous' witch hunt. If you watch the "Paradise Lost" documentaries, skip to the last one first.

[dadagoboi]

Who, BTW, had to make a "guilty" plea to be released from prison.  Arkansas couldn't bear the thought of being sued by the men who were innocent children it railroaded on its 'righteous' witch hunt. If you watch the "Paradise Lost" documentaries, skip to the last one first.

Yeah, the legal/political system continues to amaze as to who gets punished, for what, and how long.

Durham is a company town. Duke's interests are the #1 priority and it was in Duke's interest to protect their most desired customer demographic, the rich.

[uwe]

You bet.  Teenage girls even more so than boys.

I've read what's been revealed in the past couple of years here with the Catholic sex abuse scandals in Minnesota. Men (and a few women) coming out with their stories years later, having hidden it because of shame, and it almost always turns out that the accused priest was already known by the church as an abuser. When someone is in a position of authority over you, it has to be difficult to cope with what's happened.

I read and hear about this stuff and it always makes me wonder. During my complete childhood and youth I was never in a situation where someone might have been in a position to molest me. Not because I was so protected, I had fist fights and brushes with the law, contact with drugs etc. Jokingly, I always say "I was already sexually unattractive as a child, no one went after me even back then." Essentially, I was respectless of adults and had a disdain for all of them, I kept my distance. I did not think they should wield any power over me; age and experience meant nothing to me (folly, I know, but that is how I was). I didn't have a trust relationship with anyone adult - not even my parents, you're darn right I was a loner! - that would have allowed exploitation. (I guess you could have forcibly physically raped me though.)

I remember one evening in Munich (it was the week Never Mind the Bollocks came out, I remember being disappointed about its "glam rock" sound when I had expected something like the MC5) - I was 16 - where an adult in a bar asked  (a teacher, he said) whether we would like to come to his apartment. I could immediately tell he wasn't after me, but after my friend. We went there, he offered us drinks (not that I didn't drink back then, but I just didn't want to be invited for a drink), I declined and got itchy to leave. My thought was, why should an adult show any interest in us unless ... In the end, I basically dragged my friend out of the apartment by his (long blond) hair (the "teacher" did not stop us, he just looked kind of sad at us departing). That was my one and only close encounter. Certainly harmless by other people's experiences, I know.

My parents weren't great or especially conscious pedagogues (as a middle child you learn quickly that you are not the be- and end-all of the family! ), they were pretty much laissez faire, but educated by their own behavior and conduct (leading by example), but one thing they did happily not imbue me with was respect for authorities (real or perceived) or the adult world (I guess the Nazi experience - a whole nation being molested and misused - and their disdain for the bigotted Catholic Church had a lot to do with that). They gave me a sceptic outlook on things.

A lot of these victim reports - discounting scenarios where you are pinned down to the ground and raped - share that people were either in fear or awe of authority or found adult interest in them somehow a positive thing. I was so alienated from everything, I just wanted to be left alone. And for the very overwhelming part, that is what people did.

[uwe]

Chick fight!!! 

http://www.vintagevinylnews.com/2015/07/cherie-currie-adamantly-denies-that-she.html?utm_content=bufferc9a8b&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

Not sure whether polygraphs are the solution to this type of dispute. Typical American Californian idea.