Author Topic: What exotic or unusual Gibson trinkets are you hiding...?  (Read 20065 times)

uwe

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Re: What exotic or unusual Gibson trinkets are you hiding...?
« Reply #105 on: March 30, 2009, 03:30:13 AM »
I could be wrong but I believe that The P-47 once fitted with the paddle blade prop could out climb the BF 109G. The 109 G was heavy and sluggish, they should have stopped at the 109 F, the best of the lot.

The prop made a difference in climbing, but took away a little speed. The former was more important though than the latter, especially since the T-Bolts were meant to engage with the Messerschmidts, not escape from them!

All the armor and armament of the Me 109 G made it difficult to handle, captured Gs were remarked on by Allied test pilots to have the "nastiest handling characteristics imaginable". But there was a reason for it. While the F model was around, the Luftwaffe still reigned European skies, daylight bombing wasn't in full swing and the USAAF Flying Fortress and Liberator fleets weren't yet over the Reich. The F had great handling qualities, but was only armed with one cannon in the snout and two machine guns on the cowling. Try shooting down a B-17 or B-24 with that, especially if you only have a couple of seconds (and a Lightning or T-Bolt at your tail) and your one shot better be lethal to the four engine monster!!! The F's firepower was fine in a dogfight with another fighter, but even when it was introduced it split Luftwaffe pilots right down the middle. Luftwaffe Experte Werner Mölders rejoiced at its agility and the lighter armament ("finally, people have to aim again, not just spray bullets"), but he wasn't an active fighter pilot by then anymore (and crashed to his death in an Me 110 soon after without apparent Allied influence), but many active Luftwaffe pilots were aghast: "where the Allied fighters have more and more armament, we get less!", the F had one cannon less than the E (which had two wing cannons rather than a snout one, those wing cannons would return for many of the various G variants, especially as the war progressed, some Gs sported even three 2 cm cannons plus two cowling machine guns, other models featured two 3 cm cannons plus machine guns, German pilots referred to these heavily armed Gs as "Kanonenboote" you'd better not dogfight with as even a T-Bolt was agile in comparison). Some pilots refused to exchange their Es against Fs as long as they still had spare parts for the older model and part of the Focke Wulf 190 A's initial appeal over the Me 109 (it came out around the time as the F) was its better armament (though its performance suffered above 20.000 feet, making it less than ideal to attack USAAF bomber streams which regularly flew at much higher altitudes, it took the water-cooled engine of the FW 190 D model to make the Focke-Wulf a high altitude fighter).

The G - for the reasons above - also had to have much better high altitude performance than the F, though getting it there did its overall handling no favors. 

So the F was fine over the Channel when dogfighting with Spitfires or in North Africa where Hurricanes, P-40ies and Air Cobras were not a match for it as well as in Russia where most air combat took place at low altitudes against Russian aircraft that were technologically inferior. But I wouldn't have wanted to be the one flying it against several dozen B-17 all bristling with machine guns or against a P-47 twice as rugged and with heavier armament.

Most G models you see at flight shows today have the under-wing cannons removed as they hamper agility and reduce speed by about 30 mph.


The F or "Ferdinand":





The G or "Gustav", notice the telltale bulge behind the cowling:





« Last Edit: March 30, 2009, 05:41:45 AM by uwe »
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Highlander

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Re: What exotic or unusual Gibson trinkets are you hiding...?
« Reply #106 on: March 30, 2009, 04:02:35 PM »
... and Uwe, which rank did you hold back then...? hmm, maybe not military, entwerfer...?

Mark, Scott, Uwe...

I have certainly learnt a lesson here... be prepared for anything, and be certain to do your research, first...


Hey guys, I found this photo in my collection... any clues...?
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TBird1958

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Re: What exotic or unusual Gibson trinkets are you hiding...?
« Reply #107 on: March 30, 2009, 04:17:07 PM »
 That's a B-24 and an Avro Anson.............. ;)

 In 1941 I was part of my then 9 year old mother, she lived in the Rhineland in Annweiler. In '44 she had the priviledge of being strafed while working in a field and later the same day bombed in a bunker by the Amis........   
« Last Edit: March 30, 2009, 05:27:37 PM by TBird1958 »
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Highlander

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Re: What exotic or unusual Gibson trinkets are you hiding...?
« Reply #108 on: March 30, 2009, 04:54:02 PM »
Wow... a double-agent...  8) Mark-a-haari...?

Something I'm much more in tune with, aviation-wise...

Concorde's cousin, the BAC TSR 2 - a victim of "Friendly Fire" and arguably the last independant British Military Design...?

The only one to ever fly was taken to a gunnery range and used for target practice - it is pure luck the 2 prototypes remain intact, just...

... or maybe something a little darker, excluding the cherry red hue they attained at top speed...

Ok, I can understand the USAF allowing one of these to grace the "American" hanger at Duxford, but why the fastest one...?
The random mind of a Silver Surfer...
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Staring at that event horizon is a dirty job, but someone has to do it; something's going to come back out of it one day...

Highlander

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Re: What exotic or unusual Gibson trinkets are you hiding...?
« Reply #109 on: March 30, 2009, 04:55:26 PM »
George... I had some problems trying to post last night (when that beaut of a shot of a Corsair appeared!) and have only just realised that it did not get there...

I've pm'd you directly... above and beyond the call of duty, Sir...

I am truly touched by the way you guys are... thank you...
The random mind of a Silver Surfer...
If research was easy, it wouldn't need doing...
Staring at that event horizon is a dirty job, but someone has to do it; something's going to come back out of it one day...

OldManC

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Re: What exotic or unusual Gibson trinkets are you hiding...?
« Reply #110 on: March 30, 2009, 06:18:53 PM »
I'll do the surgery tonight and get in the post tomorrow or Wednesday at the latest. My pleasure, BTW!

OldManC

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Re: What exotic or unusual Gibson trinkets are you hiding...?
« Reply #111 on: March 30, 2009, 08:32:50 PM »


If this'll do ya I'll pack it up!

godofthunder

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Re: What exotic or unusual Gibson trinkets are you hiding...?
« Reply #112 on: March 31, 2009, 01:03:59 PM »
 I could be wrong but I believe that The P-47 once fitted with the paddle blade prop could out climb the BF 109G. The 109 G was heavy and sluggish, they should have stopped at the 109 F, the best of the lot.

"The prop made a difference in climbing, but took away a little speed. The former was more important though than the latter, especially since the T-Bolts were meant to engage with the Messerschmidts, not escape from them!"
   All the P-47 had to do was dive and the Bf 109 was a dot in the rear view mirror.
Maker of the Badbird Bridge, "intonation without modification" for your vintage Gibson Thunderbird

godofthunder

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Re: What exotic or unusual Gibson trinkets are you hiding...?
« Reply #113 on: March 31, 2009, 02:13:43 PM »
a quote from Ken "Scott and Mark... have you two ever been "regressed"...? just wondering where you both were, post 1941..." I have often wondered that my self, I have always felt i was born in the wrong era, The only good thing about this one is the electric bass ;)
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uwe

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Re: What exotic or unusual Gibson trinkets are you hiding...?
« Reply #114 on: April 01, 2009, 03:00:37 AM »
I could be wrong but I believe that The P-47 once fitted with the paddle blade prop could out climb the BF 109G. The 109 G was heavy and sluggish, they should have stopped at the 109 F, the best of the lot.

"The prop made a difference in climbing, but took away a little speed. The former was more important though than the latter, especially since the T-Bolts were meant to engage with the Messerschmidts, not escape from them!"
   All the P-47 had to do was dive and the Bf 109 was a dot in the rear view mirror.

You're equating the almost twice as much weight of the T-Bolt with a faster rate of dive, Scott?  :o Well, as this forum is by nature devoted to scientific truth ....



... Galileo Galilei has disproven you several centuries ago!  :mrgreen:







I'm not aware that T-Bolts could ever outdive ME 109s, the wind drag from that huge air-cooled engine must have been substantial. Perhaps in the long run through brute force of their stronger engines, but not initially. I'm not aware that any WW II fighter could actually substantially outdive an ME 109 which for all its drawbacks had (more or less accidental) excellent diving qualities. T-Bolts could outclimb ME 109s and were generally superior at very high altitudes, also the more stable and good-natured flight characteristics, took a better beating, were the more stable gun platform but actually outdive? IIRC "diving away" was the Luftwaffe's disengagement tactic until the end of the war with any Allied fighter. 

You probably mistook the ME 109 with the Zero!  :mrgreen: ;)




« Last Edit: April 01, 2009, 06:43:14 AM by uwe »
We've taken too much for granted ... and all the time it had grown ...
From techno seeds we first planted ... evolved a mind of its own ...

uwe

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Luftwaffe Corsair ...
« Reply #115 on: April 01, 2009, 05:51:28 AM »
This is interesting. I didn't know Corsairs flew in Europe, much less we got our hands on one:

"Corsair JT404 of 1841 squadron. Involved in anti-submarine patrol from HMS Formidable enroute to Scapa after Operation Mascot against the German Battleship Tirpitz, in company with Barracuda of Wing Leader Lt Cdr RS Baker-Falkner. Emergency landing in a field at Sorvag, Hameroy, near Bodo, Norway on 18 July 1944. The pilot Lt Mattholie taken POW and the aircraft captured intact with no damage. The german authorities made attempts to get the pilot to explain how to fold the wings so as to transport the aircraft to Narvik.*** Aircraft was ferried by boat for further investigation. It is not known if the Corsair was taken to Germany.  This was probably the first Corsair captured by the Germans.  Aircraft is listed at Rechlin for 1944 under repair."


*** I can just see it: "Leutnant Mattholie, vee are getting verry impatient whizz you! Show us sofort how ze vvvings vvvold or veee haff ze vvays to make you! War is war." And what would our heroic English pilot reply? "Hey Jerry, why don't you bloody crash it yourself into your Tirpitz to see how the wings fold! And have Göring fly it while you're at it ..."   ;)

Seriously, the RAF pilot probably didn't know "how the wings folded" as that would have been done by the ground crew, not him. Corsairs folding their gull wings in mid-flight were kinda rare, those who lived to tell even rarer!  ;D

It is unclear whether the warbird actually ever made it to Rechlin (where the Luftwaffe tested captured Allied aircraft, regularly with lots of yellow finish to prevent them from being accidentally attacked by German Flak or fighters) and apparently no pics exist. Some people envisage it to have looked like this:



Others like this:







http://www.modellversium.de/galerie/9-flugzeuge-militaer-bis-1949/3979-corsair-mkii.html

Goes to show that you can give the Brits anything, they'll inevitably make a mess of it and lose it. And then don't even know how ze wings föld. 8)

« Last Edit: April 01, 2009, 08:28:48 AM by uwe »
We've taken too much for granted ... and all the time it had grown ...
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TBird1958

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Re: What exotic or unusual Gibson trinkets are you hiding...?
« Reply #116 on: April 01, 2009, 08:18:16 AM »

Uwe.......

 Your sense of humor is absolutely priceless!
Resident T Bird playing Drag Queen www.thenastyhabits.com  "Impülsivê", the new lush fragrance as worn by the unbelievable Fräulein Rômmélle! Traces of black patent leather, Panzer grease, mahogany and model train oil mingle and combust to one sheer sensation ...

uwe

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Re: What exotic or unusual Gibson trinkets are you hiding...?
« Reply #117 on: April 01, 2009, 08:25:02 AM »
I'm gonna set that Dutch guy straight tonight!
We've taken too much for granted ... and all the time it had grown ...
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Saf

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Re: What exotic or unusual Gibson trinkets are you hiding...?
« Reply #118 on: April 01, 2009, 08:52:01 AM »
great topic it's starts with gibson and end with woII planes.
 I love it. Just makes me go and find my little booklet about Messerschmitt 109's It's not the biggest book in the world but it has descriptions of all the versions in it mostly with pictures from the early me109's right untill the me190V-30A and even the in licence spanish build Hispano HA112 that was kept in production as late as 1958.

Stjofön Big

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Re: What exotic or unusual Gibson trinkets are you hiding...?
« Reply #119 on: April 01, 2009, 10:11:18 AM »
1958? You gotta be kidding? That late?
(The Supremes had a nice song about a situation like this: Shake me, wake me, when it's over) And I thought bass players were the greatest nerds of them all... javascript:void(0);