Jeff Rath's 4- to 5-string conversions

ilan · January 01, 2016, 12:16:59 PM

He keeps drilling them.

Some like his initiative since RIC doesn't offer 5-string basses. Me, I think many people will be really sorry in the future for what used to be such nice basses. This is going to be like all the vintage Strats drilled and routed for Floyd Rose trems and humbuckers, IMHO.

What's your opinion?

Highlander · January 01, 2016, 01:24:58 PM

I could only offer the butcher's perspective...
If you want a fiver and there is not an available model, what other option do you have...?
None...
But then again, I've never bought an instrument with the intention of selling it, or worried about its intrinsic value, i.e. the PC...
My only concern about an instrument is the playability...

Now... did you want steak or mince...?

Alanko · January 01, 2016, 03:25:56 PM

I don't get the whole 'can't live without my 5er' mentality really. I don't see a 33 1/4'' instrument as the best candidate for a 5er anyway. Rather I would have something made custom, or modify something, with pickups in the 4003's locations. I think Jeff does the work justice, as they don't seem rough conversions in any way. I don't think the work adds any value to the instruments, as it is still a garden shed chop at the end of the day. He is trying to sell this thing for list price, whereas I think such mods easily lop 1/3 of the price, purely because they weren't performed by a renowned luthier.

I also wonder if he is stuck in the rut of modding every Rick bass blindly, just to say he made a 5er conversion out of a Laredo, or whatever. Perhaps I'm being too cynical, but those walnut basses have only been out a year or so. Seems odd to buy one, decide to instantly perform non-reversible mods, then chuck it up on Ebay at list price, presumably making a minor loss for the cost of the new nut, bridge saddles and tuner.

Dave W · January 01, 2016, 05:06:08 PM

I agree, but what can you do or say? He's always had a few buyers for his conversions.

Rob · January 01, 2016, 07:01:38 PM

All of the above here.
What the hell it's your bass do what you want. Where do people think artist models or custom shops come from?

Alanko · January 01, 2016, 07:20:02 PM

Another valid question would be to ask if 2010 - 2015 Rickenbacker basses are actually going to be regarded as gems in the future anyway. I don't see his work as akin to the modding pre-CBS Fenders, which is the angle the OP is heading for. There seems to be an element of the Rick crowd that are adversed to any sort of mods, and who steadfastly believe that any such mods erase the Rick tone forever. With Jeff I just see a guy that doggedly has to play Ricks and doggedly has to have a low-B and is compelled to tell the world every time he sticks one under the knife. The string spacing must be pretty tight at the nut anyway! I'm not convinced his instruments are going to be the most playable, as you are basically singing one song to the tune of another by cramming an extra string on there.

If rumours are true, and John Hall is set to stand down as mighty leader of the People's Republic of Ric, then we may see an upswing in terms of the range of models, finishes and general QC around Rick basses in the next few years.

Dave W · January 01, 2016, 10:41:44 PM

Quote from: Alanko on January 01, 2016, 07:20:02 PM
Another valid question would be to ask if 2010 - 2015 Rickenbacker basses are actually going to be regarded as gems in the future anyway. I don't see his work as akin to the modding pre-CBS Fenders, which is the angle the OP is heading for. There seems to be an element of the Rick crowd that are adversed to any sort of mods, and who steadfastly believe that any such mods erase the Rick tone forever. With Jeff I just see a guy that doggedly has to play Ricks and doggedly has to have a low-B and is compelled to tell the world every time he sticks one under the knife. The string spacing must be pretty tight at the nut anyway! I'm not convinced his instruments are going to be the most playable, as you are basically singing one song to the tune of another by cramming an extra string on there.

If rumours are true, and John Hall is set to stand down as mighty leader of the People's Republic of Ric, then we may see an upswing in terms of the range of models, finishes and general QC around Rick basses in the next few years.

Jeff has been doing this since the early 00s, and to basses older than that. Not that I mind, it's his decision and he wouldn't be doing it for others if he didn't have buyers.

About 15 years ago I passed on an early 90s mapleglo/black trim 4003 that was priced at $500 since I already had a newer 4003. I'd have to pay about 3x that today. Future prices? I won't guess, but it won't surprise me at all if today's Ricks become valuable 25 years from now. I can remember when many people thought 70s Fenders were awful, and look at the prices today.

If John Hall steps down, won't his sons take over? I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for major changes.

dadagoboi · January 02, 2016, 04:46:35 AM

IMO as geezers die off prices for all 'vintage' basses and guitars except for the very rare or historic models won't keep up with inflation. Today's kids don't give a crap about them, it's a disposable society.

Obviously there's a market for the guy's fivers or he'd stop building them. I do wonder why he doesn't show the back of his headstock modification, got to be some visible screw holes at least.

Every Rick he mods makes the untouched ones more valuable so if you got an unmodded one you should be happy...IMO.

Thornton Davis · January 02, 2016, 08:32:18 AM

My take of this is that I think he's trying to fill a nice market that RIC has chosen not to address (for a host of reasons). There are very few major manufactures out there today who don't offer a 5 string bass in their product line up. Since RIC doesn't and there's definitely bass players out there who would love to have a 5 string RIC, Jeff's modified 4 to 5 conversion is attractive to those players and they'll pay what every the asking price is just to own one.

Personally, I bought a new 4003S/5 back in 1998 and the string spacing was so tight that it was almost unplayable. Fortunately for me that bass quickly developed finish problems which allowed me to return it for 100% refund. The 4 to 5 conversion must have even tighter string spacing than the 4003S/5 since the neck width of a 4003 is 1/16" narrower than the neck of a 4003S/5.

Ultimately until RIC comes up with a newly designed 5-string bass I can see there being a small but steady market for the 4 to 5 conversion RIC's. And just because JH may be about to retire, I wouldn't expect anything new to be introduced by his son Ben for quite sometime.

TD

Paul Boyer · January 02, 2016, 09:01:00 AM

First off, Jeff declines offers to convert truly collectible models, so I don't think he is diminishing future values.

Actually, the necks on the 4003S/5 were the same as the four-string models, but measurements vary among all models, so you may find one that is a bit wider. That was the main objection to the S/5 model. Jeff's conversion doesn't widen the neck, but does spread the distance between strings a bit by use of a custom-made bridge. You may find the outer strings (B and G) to be a bit too "close to the edge." He also rebuilds the stock pickups by adding a fifth pole and redistributing the others.

Jeff chooses to add the fifth tuner in between the third and fourth string (G side) and does not relocate any of the other tuners. There won't be any dowel-filled holes or extra mounting holes visible.

Jeff also changes the pot values (ask him about that), so not all of the "improvements" are seen in photos. Personally, I think Jeff's conversions are great and fill a need for those who want five-string Ricks that look as good as new. If you don't want 'em, get a four and enjoy!

Granny Gremlin · January 02, 2016, 09:03:29 AM

Quote from: Highlander on January 01, 2016, 01:24:58 PM
I could only offer the butcher's perspective...
If you want a fiver and there is not an available model, what other option do you have...?
None...

Um, how about a custom from-scratch build? If you can afford a Ric, plus this mod service, you can afford a custom job.

Not that I have any problem with the mod. Just saying; there's options. I really don't feel too sad for people who insist it must be a real Ric 5er.

dadagoboi · January 02, 2016, 10:26:14 AM

Quote from: Paul Boyer on January 02, 2016, 09:01:00 AM

Jeff chooses to add the fifth tuner in between the third and fourth string (G side) and does not relocate any of the other tuners. There won't be any dowel-filled holes or extra mounting holes visible.

Looks like he's using Gotoh style y tuners. How does he deal with the 16 screw holes left by the replaced large footprint tuners?

Dave W · January 02, 2016, 10:57:01 AM

Quote from: dadagoboi on January 02, 2016, 04:46:35 AM
IMO as geezers die off prices for all 'vintage' basses and guitars except for the very rare or historic models won't keep up with inflation. Today's kids don't give a crap about them, it's a disposable society.....

LOL! That's the exact same thing some guys were saying about 15 years ago! Kids today don't play guitar, it's all disposable to them anyway, etc. I remember a discussion at Rickresource where one poster actually lectured John Hall on what he had to do to keep the company afloat because this would happen. Now demand for new ones is high as ever and 80s to mid 90s Ricks are "vintage" enough to sell for 2x-4x what they sold for in the early 00s.

You didn't just hear that about Ricks, either, the same was said about then-recent models from Gibson, Fender et al. Fast forward to today, and now discontinued 80s Gibsons like the Victory, oddball Fenders like the Performer, 3-bolt G&Ls, etc. all selling for at least twice what they did back then when those predictions were made.

Long story short: don't bet against values rising.

Jeff Scott · January 03, 2016, 10:15:54 PM

Quote from: Thornton Davis on January 02, 2016, 08:32:18 AM...I wouldn't expect anything new to be introduced by his son Ben for quite sometime.

TD

As far as I can tell, it has been Ben who has been behind the creation of all those one-offs that have been on RIC Outlet over the years, along with some cool, new colors for special runs, and special models, too.

Jeff Scott · January 03, 2016, 11:36:54 PM

As far as 5 string basses go, I have two wonderful Martin Keith Elfin 5 basses, a fretted and a fretless, and they fill those rolls perfectly. When I need/want 4 string basses, Rickenbackers are where I turn to. Simple; end of story.

Regarding JR's conversions, the only thing I will say is I am not fond of the headstock look with those three tuning keys crammed together like they are, otherwise, everything else is fine that he does. Yes, the string spacing is quite tight, but there are players out there who, obviously, are happy with the basses they play so I am not criticizing this, it is just something that I don't have to, personally deal with. The string spacing on the Martin Keiths work for me (I think the feel of the neck on the fretless would be great for a 5 string Rick bass, but it would require wider pickups).