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[Alanko]

Broadly speaking you are unburdening yourself of something. Do you have AS, or are you using it as an allegory of sorts? I've sometimes wondered if I have it, but the AS community is somewhat hostile towards self diagnosed individuals, especially those that try and glamourise it in some capacity.

Speaking more broadly, I was interested in aircraft as a kid and I got back into it when I turned 25. There was a vast self-policing period from about the ages 12 to 21 where I tried hard to conform to certain groups, political ideas, music tastes etc. It has been quite fun to re-establish an interest in stuff I thought was deeply uncool, or that I figured I had moved beyond or was above. It makes political opinions a tad easier to formulate.

Interesting to see a mention of Ayn Rand. I've only ever met more than one 'follower' in the flesh, and only encountered one serious follower online. Oddly, both worked low-pay jobs as short order cooks. I'm not entirely convinced either of them could claim to be John Galt, at the end of the day. It seems almost that Ayn Rand's works gave them a more solid framework for their own inferiority complex. These guys use 'collectivist' as an insult but are constantly under the boot of some higher up authority and have jobs that stifle any form of creativity or individuality! At the same time they whine endlessly that the John Galts of this world are endlessly under compensated for their work. All very strange!

I've had another think about musicians with aspergers, and I'm thinking (in no particular order): Robert Fripp, Peter Gabriel, J Mascis, Neil Young, Billy Corgan, John Martyn, Blackmore and Jimmy Page.

All of these guys had a fairly robust, unflinching opinion of what their music should sound like, usually at the cost of any level of self awareness. Page, Fripp, Corgan, Mascis, Blackmore and Young definitely drove their bands with an unnerving clarity of vision that I tend to associate with AS.

I read Neil Young's autobiography. Up until that point I wouldn't have considered it a possibility. I thought the book would be full of hoary road-dog tales, but instead it is a rambling monologue about bio-fuel powered cars, model railways and vintage cars. At one point his partner is giving birth to his child, and he tells us more about the car he drives to the hospital in. He doesn't really take full responsibility for any time he f***ed up and ruined a relationship, friendship or band. When his friends went off the rails and ended up OD'ing, by his own admission he was the last to notice things going sour.

[uwe]

Oh, Auntie Rand comes up periodically in this forum of fora (mostly in connection with a certain Cannuck prog rock trio, you just wait!) - I'm fascinated by her work in a macabre car-accident way. Mind you, this is an American forum, they tend to take people like her serious (Ayn, atheist she was, is like Creationism, a matter of belief not science), we have closet AND card-carrying libertarians here.  From their viewpoint, I'm the lounge socialist.  ("At home, only our domestic servants voted conservative, we let them.")   

I've never given a thought whether my condition is clinical as I'm not bothered by it. That probably makes me a severe case. Mental illness is a question of definition anyway. For the avoidance of doubt: I do not want to be making light of people who have a real condition and suffer for it.

[Alanko]

One does wonder if Ayn Rand could have got a book deal if she stuck with Alisa Rosenbaum, or ?? ?. 'Ayn Rand' sounds almost like onomatopoeia; B52s streaking over a desolate landscape as black smoke billows sluggishly in the distance. A harsh, slab-like name, not unlike the clunky architecture and politics of the day. A speed freak Russian that rolls into town one day, loudly denouncing communism for the benefit of a jittery, paranoid audience.

I don't have a problem with libertarianism, really. I prefer certain aspects of it to some of the values of right wing politicians in this country. To give but one example, the conservative government here were considering some sort of control or ban on e-cigarettes. A libertarian would probably say 'why should the state care one jot about my lungs?', whereas the knee-jerk reaction of the conservatives here is to misinterpret the issue, come down like a proverbial tonne of bricks, control and tightly regulate whilst all the while being whispered to seductively by oldschool tobacco lobbyists. I guess I can see the appeal of a sleek monolithic (pseudo)philosophy of objectivism. It gives selfish people a slightly more credible voice for rejecting Kantian ethics outright; To hell with these maggots and parasites, dragging me down! Ayn Rand didn't exactly follow her own philosophy though. Her philosophy also totally overlooks the idea that you might be more privileged than your neighbours, and that it might not be your astonishing work ethic (something lacking anyway in the two Randroids I mentioned before) that got you where you are. Ach wheel.

[uwe]

The troubling thing with Objectivism is that it - thought all the way thru - cannot lead to anything else but a caste system because a society solely made of  "I"s/holy EGOs wielding their magnificent self-spawned talents to their utmost benefit and success without interference and hindrance from lesser creatures won't work, who is gonna empty the trashcans for them? And what argument can be derived from Ojectivism that the trashcan emptier should have the same rights as the Howard Roarks and John Galts of Ayn's fantasy world? Ayn doesn't even want the trashcan emptiers to get together and form a union to ask for a pay raise from Mr Roark and Mr Galt.

Objectivism is more a religion/cult than it is an applied political or sociological science. Its radical individualism has an appeal for youth, hence people read Lord of the Rings and Anthem/The Fountainhead/Atlas Shrugged side by side.   And it's small wonder that the Rand ideology still has a semblance of public receptance in the US which has spawned an open climate for all kinds of religions and cults while she is a freak footnote in conservativism anywhere else in the world. 

Did anybody ever see those Atlas Shrugged Trilogy movies? The third and last one should have come out by now.



The trailer reminds me a bit of Flashdance for Objectivists. 

[4stringer77]

I've only seen the Fountainhead. Gary Cooper was great but Patricia Neal's character was an elitist and kind of a bitch. I'm guessing Rand projected some of herself in to the role. Not sure I want to adopt objectivist philosophies from a person like that. Ideally, a conservative government should be a limited one. Hence on a topic like E- cigs they should resist regulation and taxation and there would be no need for a libertarian party. The problem lies in the corruption by lobbyists and moneyed interests as Alanko pointed out. The evolution of the economy and society by things like immigration and replacement of the worker by mechanical automations (robots) will further test the reconciliation of philosophies such as Objectivism, libertarianism or socialism with the realities of a technocratic oligarchy.

[uwe]

I have that Gary Cooper DVD at home too, have to take the time to finally see it. Dominique Francon (Patricia Neal's role) was a bitch in Ayn Rand's book too, kind of like Scarlet O'Hara, she was neither a nice nor a particularly good person, but a spoiled rotten brat with firm principles. (Auntie Rand had some kudos to present her that way but then The Fountainhead and Gone with the Wind are not too far apart timewise, somewhat less than angelic heroines were becoming en vogue.) And Dominique (I bet you, the name was no coincidence) had a penchant for surrendering to strong men after futile physical and psychological resistance, but then all of Rand's heroines do that, slightly masochist streak running there, but, hey, it's a free country! 




And the spanked shall inherit the earth.

[wellREDman]

I cant talk about Ayn rand because not a single thing I have heard about them ever has been positive, I probably should but Ive been through a period of pushing myself to read distasteful things to try and maintain objectivity, but you know what? lifes too short.

Autism I can speak to: Autism and Asperger's are different things, there's a yo-yo in the science between how their connected, and the  current consensus is that they are part of a "spectrum" but no sooner had the definitions for the latest psychiatry manual been set when new experiments based on blood tests showed them to be separate. I speak as someone who works with both, you definitely approach things in a very different way with an Asperger than an autistic. one of the defining characteristics of autistic kids is that they all present so differently, what soothes  for one is distressing for another, it is very difficult transfer lessons learnt from one to help you work with another in any meaningful way. when presented with an Aspie on the other hand, you kind of know where you are to start with, they are still individual but theres a broad type you can get your head around.
its quite tricky as a practitioner to work under a scientific "consensus" that needs to be paid lip service to while knowing empirically that they are blatantly different

[Highlander]

I have several Rand works in my library but I don't follow her views... Shrugged and Fountain Head  have the DVD too) are classic stories... Anthem is a harder read...

Not seen the film version yet ... no UK release yet... iirc...

Presently too knackered to do anything but glance...

[Dave W]

I always smile when anyone mentions libertarianism in connection with Ayn Rand or objectivism. Ayn Rand hated libertarians. She despised libertarianism and trashed it repeatedly. There are a number of points in common, but Rand was so doctrinaire and authoritarian that she couldn't stand the idea of anyone exercising personal freedoms that disagreed with her rigid code.

Ever meet a hardcore Randist? They all believe exactly as she did, like the same music and arts, and regurgitate everything she said as if it were delivered from on high on stone tablets. If you ever want to really set one of them off, tell him or her that she was a great libertarian -- and prepare to get stern lecture.

[uwe]

A cult leader alright then. I guess her divisiveness attracts me. Plus she was probably hot in bed since (i) not being that pretty she had to make an extra effort, (ii) all that emotion and intellectual discipline needed a place to vent, (iii) her books are smattered with sex scenes, people first abhor each other, then have a meeting of minds and, finally, screw. Objectivism alright.

That Atlas Shrugged Trilogy is supposed to be horrible, bad acting, TV movie visuals, a story in which a train is the symbol for modernisation (very Lenin by the way, some parts of Ayn's formal communist education just stuck with her) doesn't really translate credibly into current times (unless it were some steampunk alternative future) and it had an abysmal public, commercial and critical reception, parts II and III never even saw a European release after part I bombed so badly. Still, I'm likely to get the DVD/BluRay just for the curio aspect of it.

[uwe]

I cant talk about Ayn rand because not a single thing I have heard about them ever has been positive, I probably should but Ive been through a period of pushing myself to read distasteful things to try and maintain objectivity, but you know what? lifes too short.

Autism I can speak to: Autism and Asperger's are different things, there's a yo-yo in the science between how their connected, and the  current consensus is that they are part of a "spectrum" but no sooner had the definitions for the latest psychiatry manual been set when new experiments based on blood tests showed them to be separate. I speak as someone who works with both, you definitely approach things in a very different way with an Asperger than an autistic. one of the defining characteristics of autistic kids is that they all present so differently, what soothes  for one is distressing for another, it is very difficult transfer lessons learnt from one to help you work with another in any meaningful way. when presented with an Aspie on the other hand, you kind of know where you are to start with, they are still individual but theres a broad type you can get your head around.
its quite tricky as a practitioner to work under a scientific "consensus" that needs to be paid lip service to while knowing empirically that they are blatantly different

I have to ask because I'm curious: What is the dividing line/difference between autism and Asperger's? It's never been clear to me except that from one point in time onwards people started referring more to Asperger's Syndrome than to just plain autism.

[Dave W]

A cult leader alright then. I guess her divisiveness attracts me. Plus she was probably hot in bed since (i) not being that pretty she had to make an extra effort, (ii) all that emotion and intellectual discipline needed a place to vent, (iii) her books are smattered with sex scenes, people first abhor each other, then have a meeting of minds and, finally, screw. Objectivism alright.
...

Oh my, you must not know the story about her and Nathaniel Branden. He wrote to her with questions when he was a teenager and became her acolyte and then her heir apparent. She determined that they should become lovers because they shared objectivist values. Her husband had no say in the matter. When Branden broke things off, he became anathema to the movement. Mention his name to dedicated Randist and you'll really get an earful. He's their Emmanuel Goldstein.

[TBird1958]

A cult leader alright then. I guess her divisiveness attracts me. Plus she was probably hot in bed since (i) not being that pretty she had to make an extra effort, (ii) all that emotion and intellectual discipline needed a place to vent, (iii) her books are smattered with sex scenes, people first abhor each other, then have a meeting of minds and, finally, screw. Objectivism alright.

That Atlas Shrugged Trilogy is supposed to be horrible, bad acting, TV movie visuals, a story in which a train is the symbol for modernisation (very Lenin by the way, some parts of Ayn's formal communist education just stuck with her) doesn't really translate credibly into current times (unless it were some steampunk alternative future) and it had an abysmal public, commercial and critical reception, parts II and III never even saw a European release after part I bombed so badly. Still, I'm likely to get the DVD/BluRay just for the curio aspect of it.

Alison and I have seen two of the three movies, the acting is bad.........The railroad scenes are really bad, trains and tunnels should really just allude  to one thing.   

[wellREDman]

I have to ask because I'm curious: What is the dividing line/difference between autism and Asperger's? It's never been clear to me except that from one point in time onwards people started referring more to Asperger's Syndrome than to just plain autism.

on such thoughts are theses and doctorates written, give me a bit of time to get my head round trying to give a laymans breakdown, but I'll give it a go

[Nocturnal]

I sat thru the first movie and watched maybe 20 min. of the second. Calling it bad acting is being kind. It reminded me of the trash that is produced for the Lifetime or Hallmark networks.