New two-pickup Starfire by Guild

[hieronymous]

I also seriously doubt that Fred had anything to do with these or that they're modeled after Dark Stars. If they were based on Fred's modifications, it makes no sense that Guild would specifically call the pickup a Bisonic without any other description.

I wish I had more concrete evidence - all I have to go on are a cryptic message at the Let's Talk Guild forum and the message from my friend - I will check back with him and make sure he actually spoke to someone at the company.

[hieronymous]

OK, finally some definitive words on the matter - the current Bi-Sonics have no connection to Fred Hammon. Here's what I got from a Guild rep:

Guild's classic BiSonic bass pickup was introduced in the mid-1960s. Fred Hammon launched the Darkstar pickup in 2005, which was a more modern take on the BiSonic pickup, making them more aggressive but still preserving the classic sound. That is the only connection our BiSonic pickups have with Fred Hammon.

Gotta remember to take what people say with a grain of salt, especially on the internets! Sorry for the false alarm though I'm glad it pushed me to look into the matter myself.

[hieronymous]

OK, finally some definitive words on the matter - the current Bi-Sonics have no connection to Fred Hammon. Here's what I got from a Guild rep:

Guild's classic BiSonic bass pickup was introduced in the mid-1960s. Fred Hammon launched the Darkstar pickup in 2005, which was a more modern take on the BiSonic pickup, making them more aggressive but still preserving the classic sound. That is the only connection our BiSonic pickups have with Fred Hammon.

Gotta remember to take what people say with a grain of salt, especially on the internets! Sorry for the false alarm though I'm glad it pushed me to look into the matter myself.

And yet when I relayed it to my Facebook friend, he says that the bass rep said that there was a connection...

[dadagoboi]

And yet when I relayed it to my Facebook friend, he says that the bass rep said that there was a connection...

The connection being Fred Hammon used a Bisonic as the starting point for the Dark Star.

[Pilgrim]

Roughly equivalent to Hollywood's "based on a true story".

Meaning essentially that they kept the name and changed the rest.

[BTL]

Has anyone done a build with one of these yet?

Readily available for $100 at Best Bass Gear.

http://www.bestbassgear.com/guild-bisonic.htm

[Pilgrim]

Has anyone done a build with one of these yet?

Readily available for $100 at Best Bass Gear.

http://www.bestbassgear.com/guild-bisonic.htm

Interesting that the template they list is a link to a Darkstar template.  Must be the same dimensions.

[drbassman]

My oh my, I'm smitten.  It is beautiful and the 2 pups would definitely be nice.

[BTL]

It is interesting that they Guild mentions both Fred Hammond and Curtis Novak by name in their ad copy:

The Guild BS-1 BiSonic pickup was originally found in many of the solid and hollow body Guild basses in the 1960s and 70s. The BS-1 has developed a cult following resulting in several reissue versions and designs, including the famous Darkstar by Fred Hammon and BS-DS by Curtis Novak. Wound to 6.4K Ohms, similar in specification to a Hammon Darkstar, the Guild BS-1 provides a refined modern tone in a classic package.

[Dave W]

That wasn't there last time I looked.

As Harry noted above, there was a conflict between what the Guild rep told him and what the rep told a FB friend.

This settles it, and IMHO it's unfortunate. Not just because I don't care for the Darkstar, but because it's not going to sound like the original. What I really find odd is the cult following based on what Jack Casady and Phil Lesh stopped using decades ago.

[hieronymous]

That wasn't there last time I looked.

As Harry noted above, there was a conflict between what the Guild rep told him and what the rep told a FB friend.

This settles it, and IMHO it's unfortunate. Not just because I don't care for the Darkstar, but because it's not going to sound like the original. What I really find odd is the cult following based on what Jack Casady and Phil Lesh stopped using decades ago.

I'm actually not convinced that we know anything - which is what bugs me!

The Darkstar - love it or hate it - was a loving recreation of the modified Hagstrom BiSonics that were used in Guilds in the late '60s. What did Guild really model the current reissue BiSonics on? Original BiSonics? Darkstars? Do they know the difference? If they did, I think they would be more open about the design, but what do I know. I guess I can imagine what Gibson would do with such a history. But if they don't but they are throwing the Darkstar name around? Or they are knowingly using it, hoping to cash in on the reputation of those pickups without replicating the nuances? But what if a player can't fathom the difference and make good music on it anyway? What I guess I'm trying to say is, I'm not convinced that they actually came up with a kick-ass recreation of the BiSonic (or the Darkstar), and that would be fine, if they weren't cashing in on the legacy...

Not sure why this issue gets me so worked up - maybe part of me thinks, "someone shouldn't be allowed to get a great sound out of a $100 pickup" but what should I care? If someone does, then that's great! If not and they only bought it based on the hype, then that's their own fault. But I don't think people should get sucked into the hype either, and maybe I just want to point out that it's a bunch of hype without any solid foundation.

Another part of the equation is that Phil Lesh is back to Alembic - he has been using a couple of custom built Alembic 6-strings for about the past year now. I really think that the Alembic system is the natural progression (early on) of what Phil Lesh was using - first modified BiSonics, which they felt gave a very even tone - then Ron Wickersham designed pickups. Another key is that the BiSonics were being put through filters (usually low-pass) - I personally think that broad frequency pickups don't necessarily sound good on their own - the whole point is that they will reproduce the sound of the instrument, which can then be filtered and EQ'd, a very different approach than using a pickup with a very characteristic frequency response like a split-coil P pickup. So in other words, the "Darkstar/BiSonic magic" of the Dead and early Alembic wasn't only about the pickup - it was also about what you then did with the signal.

I think this is all what I was trying to say before too! 

[Alanko]

This settles it, and IMHO it's unfortunate. Not just because I don't care for the Darkstar, but because it's not going to sound like the original. What I really find odd is the cult following based on what Jack Casady and Phil Lesh stopped using decades ago.

Of course neither Phil or Jack used stock Starfires either. Guild should do a 'San Fran' special issue with brass hardware and most of the treble side of the body filled with hardcore filter-based preamps built up from military NOS components, topped off with chunky Raytheon knobs.

[Pilgrim]

Of course neither Phil or Jack used stock Starfires either. Guild should do a 'San Fran' special issue with brass hardware and most of the treble side of the body filled with hardcore filter-based preamps built up from military NOS components, topped off with chunky Raytheon knobs.

Well said!  Casady practically tore apart his basses and turned them into Frankensteins with metal plates, different pickups, switches, etc.  He was anything but a purist, and I've seen pictures of his basses that look like something a Road Warrior movie.

I don't quite get the popular focus on "vintage" pickup sound.  Pickups are about as simple as pounding clothes on a rock by the stream to wash them; they're magnets with wire wound around them. Many of the pickups from the 50's and 60's were made as best guesses, some of which worked and a few of which didn't. I've seen back-side pix of the Darkstars and it looks like they have some extra "stuff," but I wouldn't place a bet on whether I could hear much difference between them and a TV Jones Thundertron.

If someone would like to explain what the electronic particulars are for the "original" pickups with "extra stuff" that were the genesis of this type, I'll be glad to read and learn from it - but it probably won't make a difference as to whether I'd buy version A vs. B vs. C.

To me, what matters is not so much the derivation of the pickups, but whether they sound good or not to me. There are few things more individual than people's judgments (or lack of them) about pickups, and what I like, some others won't.  For that matter, I know that I'm not very good at hearing distinctions between pickups. 

I care about the overall ergonomics and balance of the instrument, and whether the combination of strings and pickups gives me a sound I like. Most of the time, if I don't like it the answer (for me) is changing the strings, not the pickups.

The Guild Starfire looks really nice to me, has a 30.75" neck, and overall looks like something I'd like. But it's awfully close in look to my medium-scale Gretsch 5123, the price is pretty high, and as a noted cheapskate, I doubt I'll be tempted to buy one.

[Dave W]

All good points, gentlemen. We really don't know for sure what Guild is doing with the design. They could be just trying to reel in people who have heard about Darkstars.

The Darkstar was definitely a hotrodded version of the Bisonic. And IIRC it was based on Rick Turner's hotrodding of the originals. So while Jack and Phil's basses had many more mods than just the pickups, there's no doubt the pickups were partly responsible for the sound.

Pickups are relatively simple, but there are all kinds of variables that can change the sound.

Some things really irritated me about the Darkstar  cultism. One was people repeating ad nauseam that it's a wide range pickup, as if that somehow made it superior. Hey, an EMG soapbar is wide range too and it sure doesn't sound like a Darkstar. The only criterion should be whether it sounds good to you, in your bass. If you like the wide range aspect of it, fine, but by itself, that doesn't tell you if it sounds good.

The other irritant was that back in the Pit days, certain members kept linking to just about every damned cheapo project bass that came up on eBay as a potential "Darkstar project." Really? As if some plywood or mystery wood hunk of junk is going to be magically transformed by dropping in a pickup that costs more than the bass? It's not magic, folks.

[leftybass]

Yeah, that last one was a drag that drug on and on.