Gibson EB-0 Lo Z Christmas project

[Granny Gremlin]

(Granny, sometime would your PM me your exact set up for that Jamerson tone.  Unfortunately you would have to splain it to me  like I was a six year old. You guys are light years ahead of me in knowledge and experience.  I understand D.I. in theory but I have no experience with it)

It's not exactly Jamerson nailed to a T, but gets you in the neighborhood - if anything, a more modern/hihfi version of that tone:  Triumph with flats, tone position 3 into any 60s era Ampex tube preamp.  This is how most Motown bass was recorded; even when micing JJs B15 an Ampex preamp was always in the chain, and they definately add a certain character. JJ did also went through DI - the Ampex and a P with deadish flats were the only constants to his (recorded) tone in terms of gear.  Mostly the studio was using an Ampex MX10 (tube mixer with 2-4 mic pres depending on options), but I find the PR10 (which is a reel to reel 2 track recorder with a very nice tube preamp section ) or 354 (same preamp as the PR10, but larger chassis - easier to work on -  the PR10 is cramped as it was the 'portable' model) sound pretty much the same (they use the same "plug in" preampmodules based on the miniature Nuvistor tubes, to convert the inputs from unbalanced line to mic level).  The Ampexes only have a gain knob so use the treble/bass knobs on the Triumph to dial it it to your liking (probably bass on full or close to it and treble rolled off at least a little).  The Ampex will add that low midrange girth.

I have 2 PR10s (preamps only racked up and slightly modified for stand alone use as mic preamps -the tape transports were broken and not worth fixing - horribly/notoriously unreliable machines).

[Psycho Bass Guy]

Would now be a good time to mention that I have a whole host of vintage Ampex preamps that sound NOTHING like Motown? A tube Altec mixer, however, WILL do that tone. Matter of fact, the 342B powered mixer is a VERY good substitute for a B-15N, down the 5AR4 and 6L6GC outputs. Of course, a B-15N had NOTHING to do with Motown.

[dadagoboi]

Of course, a B-15N had NOTHING to do with Motown.

Because Carole Kay played all those bass parts over the telephone from SoCal.

[Granny Gremlin]

Of course, a B-15N had NOTHING to do with Motown.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here, but I did not say anything close to that.

I find the Altecs to be on the trashy end (tone-wise), but I'm not sure I've ever used the  342B specifically - at least not the power section.  The current prices on them are insane too (I totally missed the boat on that, but at the time I was grabbing up Ampexes which I like better) though Ampexes can be way up there too, price-wise,  it's mostly the 350/351 and 601 that are expensive; moreso  than the PR10/354 (which were seen as dogs due to the PR10 transport), and the 'better' ones have  only 1 channel vs 2 and some of them require an external power supply so cost more to get working stand alone as well after you buy them).  The 354/PR10 are still bargains by comparison (the MX10 is likewise expensive though, especially if gone over/modified - not worth the price IMHO, but you can sometimes find them cheap in random places) these all sound rather different from the predecessors (350/351 and 601) which is what I am assuming you have some of, because they were the ones that were better known for their sound and more desirable/first cannabalized for stand alone use vs the others (the 350/351 certainly look cooler - and it's what they based the look/sound of the Ampex sim DAW plug in on). Anyway, it is rather well documented that Hitsville used MX10s - they had a prominant position just to the left of the console (bottom item in the rack, with other Ampex units in the rack around it):



Though they also had a single Altec (not the 432B, looks like a 1567A, so similar in that it's a powered mixer) in the back rack and I know that at some point (later than these pics I think) they had some Altec compressors in that same rear rack:



(click either for larger)


Anyway, I guess we're hearing different things. Tone is sso subjective.  JJ himself didn't always sound the same on every record.  Sometimes he was really mellow like this:



and other times, while still his mellow self under there, he's dirtier with a certain upper middishness - probably to cut through busier mixes easier,  like here (really obvious before the drums kick in):



The second one definitely does not sound like Ampex to me; but who knows what was in the mixing chain - the whole song sounds like the upper mids were turned up on everything (or at least the entire rhythm section).  The first one does however sound ampexy to me (Ampexes can get dirty, it just doesn't sound like the dirt on the Ain't That Peculiar bass track when they do).

Anyway, I'd say at least 80% of JJs tone was his bass setup (dead old dog flats) and his fingers.

[dadagoboi]

I can forgive you your youth for not knowing but those tracks were cut YEARS apart, one in Detroit and one in L.A....I'll  let you research which.  That seems to be your strong suit

[Granny Gremlin]

And that's relevant how exactly?  I only posted that comparison to show the diversity in his tone over the years.  The one that sounds more Ampexy to me, was recorded at Hitsville, so if anything, it helps, so thanks for pointing that out.

[dadagoboi]

And that's relevant how exactly?  The one that sounds more Ampexy to me, was recorded at Hitsville.

You're the one who was making the irrelevant comparison, not me.  Different engineers, studios, mastering labs, type of song, 4 track vs 16, more than 5 years apart.  Why WOULDN'T Jamerson sound 'different'?

[Granny Gremlin]

It's not irrelevant.  People talk about the 'Jamerson tone' and I was showing that it is not that consistant, static thing (this seems obvious maybe, but people often forget about that); which record/era's sound one associates with that architype of JJ can vary.

[amptech]

(Granny, sometime would your PM me your exact set up for that Jamerson tone.  Unfortunately you would have to splain it to me  like I was a six year old. You guys are light years ahead of me in knowledge and experience.  I understand D.I. in theory but I have no experience with it)

PM him, or this thread will be closed before I get to paint the body

[chromium]

@Blended - Somehow I missed those pics... really cool concept there!  I especially like the Triumph-style fingerboard and headstock treatment.  The latter looks pretty slick on the slothead.  Nice job!

[Granny Gremlin]

Sorry amptech.

[amptech]

Sorry amptech.

Don´t be, I like JJ´s sound as well - but his sound is a huuuge topic and deserves a thread on it´s own

[BlendedCat]

A spirited debate to be sure  But I am looking forward to seeing some picks this weekend amptech.  Any chance for an update?.  I would like to know what value pots you have in mind for the tone stack you envision.  I know you're not taking this route but the Shure A95F impedance matching mike transformer has a multi-tap transformer in it, one for 75 ohms and one for 250 ohms.  Since your pickup is only 15 ohms you could you could switch between both taps.  I wonder how different the sounds would be for each?

[amptech]

A spirited debate to be sure  But I am looking forward to seeing some picks this weekend amptech.  Any chance for an update?.  I would like to know what value pots you have in mind for the tone stack you envision.  I know you're not taking this route but the Shure A95F impedance matching mike transformer has a multi-tap transformer in it, one for 75 ohms and one for 250 ohms.  Since your pickup is only 15 ohms you could you could switch between both taps.  I wonder how different the sounds would be for each?

Well, it´s drying now and will do so for a couple of weeks - I can´t rush it. I´m trying to avoid the ´jeans texture´
I got on a bass I painted when I was 14 years old. Sprayed it black after breakfast, two coats (maybe 5 minutes between the coats). Waited impatiently for an hour or so before I put the parts back onto the body, then i plugged in and played it.. So I got black marks on my pants (looked pretty cool for a punk kid) and jeans texture on the bass

For the electronics, I´ll wait and see. I´ll post the schematics when I know it works. My testy rig (top mounted on my ´67 EB-3 with similar body) was the 15 ohm pup through a 1K cts volume pot, via an unmarked Tamura mic-to line shielded tranny - into a jack. Only roughly put together, but sounded very nice and was not noisy.

Output-wise, plugged into my Musicman rig (HD130/212RH/115RH) it was slightly stronger than most of my basses,
(it had a tad more ´attitude´ than expected) and slightly weaker (and less bassy) then the stock ´67 mudbucker.
I did not tune the circuit, just fooled around to get the best, in my opinion, pickup placement.

I guess tuning the cct will come last, I expect it to sound different with a hipshot bridge an ultralite tuners than with
a tilted bar bridge and worn schallers.

But I´ll keep you updated the second something happens.

[BlendedCat]

Well, it´s drying now and will do so for a couple of weeks - I can´t rush it. I´m trying to avoid the ´jeans texture´
I got on a bass I painted when I was 14 years old. Sprayed it black after breakfast, two coats (maybe 5 minutes between the coats). Waited impatiently for an hour or so before I put the parts back onto the body, then i plugged in and played it.. So I got black marks on my pants (looked pretty cool for a punk kid) and jeans texture on the bass

For the electronics, I´ll wait and see. I´ll post the schematics when I know it works. My testy rig (top mounted on my ´67 EB-3 with similar body) was the 15 ohm pup through a 1K cts volume pot, via an unmarked Tamura mic-to line shielded tranny - into a jack. Only roughly put together, but sounded very nice and was not noisy.

Output-wise, plugged into my Musicman rig (HD130/212RH/115RH) it was slightly stronger than most of my basses,
(it had a tad more ´attitude´ than expected) and slightly weaker (and less bassy) then the stock ´67 mudbucker.
I did not tune the circuit, just fooled around to get the best, in my opinion, pickup placement.

I guess tuning the cct will come last, I expect it to sound different with a hipshot bridge an ultralite tuners than with
a tilted bar bridge and worn schallers.

But I´ll keep you updated the second something happens.

Been a couple of weeks amptech.  Any chance for some updated photo's of the project?