Punk RIP

[uwe]

It's not like they avoided the tag either - it was cool to be punk in 76/77, even Police (all three of them former prog rock or jazz musos!) wanted to be. But it took one listen to realize that The Stranglers had heard more early Deep Purple Mk 1 (their keyboarder was a Jon Lord-buff) and Doors and Television more Wishbone Ash and Grateful Dead than either of those bands had heard, say, The Stooges or The New York Dolls.

[Dave W]

That's not punk either, Dave, just urban rock'n'roll.

Maybe in Germany. Definitely not here. They were one of the first bands called punk.

[Granny Gremlin]

The most annoying thing about punk was its elitism as to all other types of music. The most pretentious prog bands in their mothers' gowns never claimed that their music was the only thing worthwhile to the exclusion of everything else. Punk reeked of musical insecurity and intolerance.

I see that, but I'd argue that much of that is a) warranted (alienated youth and music that didn't speak to them at all - the kids to this day, e.g. yours, say the radio/top 40 is shit and how seriously do you take that?), b) due to the first wave of punk being, on average, not even legal (i.e. to drink or age of majority etc)  when it started, and c) under attack/criticism form all sides.  Yeah they were a bit immature and self-righteous.... but so was (mostly) everyone else at that age (except nobody was documenting it).  That and many of those glam bands were just as elitist, just had the sense/lack of cahones (foolhardiness), to not go around talking shit about it like the Bromley Contingent (for example) would.  

Despite your lack of intended insult (none taken, I ain't them), calling The Ramones more bubblegum not punk makes no sense to me (no 2 bands in the first wave sounded remotely similar, so what is exactly the "punk sound?" ... and also The Ramones schtick is the stylistic basis for what became hardcore and most of what is now classified as punk). Sure "chewing out a rythmn on my bubblegum" etc (a classic, awesome line by the way) and they were very comic book (even to the point of being actual comic book characters, literally, see below) that was never incompatible with punk.  Punk, as the Ramones saw it (if Do You Remember Rock n Roll Radio can be taken as a manifesto) did look back to what was seen as the golden age of rock before all the perceived indulgences crept in (including the start of the popification of rock - aka bubblegum).  Bubblegum implies lack of substance, and though there is a bit of a paradox at play (that revered golden age had some of the most banal lyrics ever) The Ramones can hardly be accused of that (on a consistant basis - they took themselves unseriously enough to allow the odd sappy love song or fun song, in between the more socio-political ones).

Those protopunk bands (I believe now classified as garage or glam, sometimes both, depending on which and what stage of their career; music stores were not as imaginative with the catagories back then I suspect) you mentioned, Iggy/Stooges specifically, were very influential in one way you are ignoring - being over the top and (trying to) make people wonder if they're taking you too seriously.  Iggy self-mutilationg in ways that didn't (usually or intentionally) cause much more than superficial damage, but created a right bloody mess vs being snooty brats - because that's what the.... I dunno what to call it, establishment/adults/moral majority,  thought of them so they owned and hyperbolised that actually elitist attitude as a form of satire - see Siouxsie with the swastika armband and the resulting controversy.... not that I think she should have done  that, it was stupid, but she was what, 17 at the time, and had all sorts of media already crying out to burn her, some more specifically than others, at the stake; nothing to loose).

This elitism was a self-defence mechanism.  Not necessarily a very good or mature one, but nevertheless.

Also there's footage of (I think) Queen (or was it Roxy Music?) dissing the shit out of the Pistols (after, I think, a bit of a scuffle that saw one of the Pistols get a good clocking; they were in the same studio recording their albums), so guilty all around.

[uwe]

Maybe in Germany. Definitely not here. They were one of the first bands called punk.

You Americans. You had to send them to the UK first to even take notice of them.

[Granny Gremlin]

That's a pretty Anglophone disease I'm afraid.  Without a domestic native language music scene (that can't be filled by import bands), and so many wannabe big bands in every city a certain cynicism/scepticism re the local young blood sets in.

Toronto/Canada is pretty bad for that and I am told that it is similar, if slightly less acute, in the UK too.  Quebec with it's franco-cultural protectionism being the exception (as well as smaller/remoter towns without big touring bands coming through all the time).

[uwe]

I didn't want to insult The Ramones, but I could imagine them belting out Yummy, Yummy anytime! They had a sense of pop harmony. Blitzkrieg Bop is a great pop song. Never mind what they were, that first album is iconic.

The Pistols were always quick to pick a fight and lose it, but, admittedly, they never bowed down. Of course there were knocks from old school or to use the phrase popular back then "boring old farts" bands. Pat Travers (a Canadian, you know how they are) wanted a "duel" with the Pistols where he would play with only three strings, his bassist with only two strings and the drummer just with snare, hi-hat and bass drum, claiming that he would still wipe the floor with the Pistols musically. The "challenge" ruled the NME for a while, but the Pistols never reacted, probably not so much for fear of being outclassed but because they did not see the point and didn't need that type of publicity anymore.

As for some of the other stuff circulated at the time (Peter Frampton allegedly threatening to leave A&M Records if they took on the Pistols etc), I wouldn't be surprised if Malcolm McLaren invented all that. Jimmy Page and Robert Plant saw the Pistols and liked what they saw. Rory Gallagher saw the Pistols at a US West Coast gig and was so impressed with their energy that he reconfigurated his band in the aftermath, out went the keyboard player Lou Martin and the nimble drummer, Gallager immediately scrapped the album he was recording at the time which should have broken the US market for him (released as "Notes from San Francisco" decades later), reverted to trio form and the new drummer (Hugh Mckenna from SAHB) was a lot less jazzy than Rod De'Ath, his predecessor.

So the Pistols are even to blame for the break-up of the best Rory Gallagher Band line-up, darn!!!  

[nofi]

i don't buy that no matter what all your fanzines say.

[Highlander]

That's not punk either, Dave, just urban rock'n'roll.

By Dave's standards, Uwe, I guess that's pretty "out there"... 

Punk era... sort of mostly passed me by... stuck by the metal and jeans and tee's and long hair... Motorhead was spawned out of this era, and Tom Petty was (sort of) called new-wave until they heard him... some of the first Pistols LP contains some stunning material - 40/40 hindsight...

[uwe]

Buy what? The Rory Gallagher episode? It's in his brother's Donal booklet notes to the "Notes from San Francisco" release of the scrapped album. Gallagher had pressure from Chrysalis (his label) to finally crack the US where he was a live draw but not much else. They wanted better, more commercial production of his albums, hence the advent of Roger Glover as an outside producer who produced Calling Card (which I rate as the most mature album from that Gallagher period, but Rory obviously had qualms about the more polished sound Roger created). Following Calling Card, Chrysalis wanted to do even better and "treat" Rory with an American name producer: Elliot Mazer (Janis Joplin, Bob Dylan, Neil Young, The Band). He honed Rory's sound even more, but the results (larger arrangements) unsettled the Irishman. Listening to the production today, it sure isn't Bullfrog Blues full onslaught (and the emphasis is more on the harmonica and the piano than anything else), but hardly sterile or subdued either, maybe that album would have been successful in the US after all had he released it at the time, musically I thought his reverting to a three piece as a step backward at the time, he lost musical color when he booted Martin and De'Ath (don't be fooled by the Calling Card cover, it's from the later San Francisco sessions and cropped up as a bonus track on a Calling Card remaster):





Now, does the fact that Rory Gallagher liked the Pistols and that their act made him think about his own desecrate the coolness of the Pistols or taint Gallagher's blues legacy in your eyes?  

Don't be so cryptic, Nofi. We all do want to understand you!

On second thought: Rory Gallagher's brother and longtime manager must have reasons to invent something like that. 

[lowend1]

The Ramones were so hyped in the NYC rock press that I thought "I HAVE to buy their album when it comes out."  I remember plunking down a fair chunk of my meager gas-pumping earnings and heading home to my turntable - only to feel that I had been fleeced.  I remember feeling that either it was some kind of joke or that something positively awful had happened to music. I found some of the subsequent albums more appealing, but that first record remains as a somewhat traumatic musical event in my life.

I liked the Pistols, but still feel that THESE guys were the "real" punks (well, after GG Allin ):

[uwe]

I was disappointed by Never Mind the Bollocks (the production sounded teenybopperish to me), but the Ramones debut left a lasting impression, perhaps because I preferred Joey's vocals (and hypher-NYC accent) over Johnny's (Rotten) cockney sneer. I've read that Joey thought that the demos to the debut were much better and I've heard those too, but I prefer the official debut still. Johnny Ramone's guitar sounded like nothing else I had heard before.

Even their later and last stuff draws a smile to my face to this day. Heck, I've even bought the posthumous Joey solo albums. Call me crazy but I always felt that there was a warmth to Joey's voice which Lydon totally lacked (but then that is not what the Pistols or PIL were about, granted).



And Joey liked Deep Purple, so there! 

[4stringer77]

This is a classic

And this

I like what Jello did with Al Jorgenson too

[Granny Gremlin]

Oh, don't be bringin' Hypo Luxa into it 

[4stringer77]

Granted he's more industrial than punk but how can you not love this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7bqDDmA7cw&list=PL65798A28883222B0

[Psycho Bass Guy]

As a prime example of a band that is fashion/lifestyle first and music second that seems to be a sacred cow for the current 'punk kids' is Social Distortion. Their music is bland and derivative and what few gems exist are covers ("Ring of Fire") or ripoffs of other songs ("Story of My Life"/"The Cowboy Song"), but you will be hard-pressed to find another band with such a fervent group of dedicated fans. I saw them on Axis TV's Guitar Center Concert Series today and the interview with Mike Ness confirmed everything I had always suspected about him in a very bad way. The guitar players in my old band worshipped them (we covered a bunch of their songs) and I tried to like Social D, but I just can't get past the repetition and pose factor. It really turns me off to see a band celebrate their music as a programmed soundtrack to their "lifestyle." Maybe there just too many posers in this world or maybe I'm just too hardcore: I ain't changing; screw the rest of 'em.