Music Man HD-130 and Ampeg cab review

[drbassman]

Here are the particulars.  First, the head and cabs are in 7.5/10 condition.  A few scuffs here and there, some added casters, a couple lightly chipped knobs.  Looks like new tubes in the head, Ruby brand, not familiar to me.

We popped the grills off at the store and it was obvious one was probably a replacement and one maybe original.  The sales guys didn't know squat.  The new speaker gave me some bargaining room.  One cab has a massive JBL, looks really new, cast iron frame weighs a ton.  8 ohm.  The other has a square mag speaker, based on the mag and rust, I'm guessing original speaker.   Don't know how to read the serial number.  The grill cloths are clean and undamaged.

This rig sounds really sweet and was a great deal, especially considering its condition and 40 years old.  Can't wait to test drive it at practice!  I'm very happy with it.

[dadagoboi]

Nice!  I have Rubies in my B-15, no problems with them.  The stock speaker is a CTS,   IIRC "7718" is 1977 18th week.

[drbassman]

Nice!  I have Rubies in my B-15, no problems with them.  The stock speaker is a CTS,   IIRC "7718" is 1977 18th week.

Ah, cool.  So not quite 40 years old. But in great condition.

[jumbodbassman]

JBL 140 is a great speaker.  If in  good working order its worth good money but IMO i would keep that one and upgrade the other. 

[FrankieTbird]

The JBL is a great speaker, worth a few $$$.  The other one is an Eminence.  67 is their EIA code.  7718 is the 18th week of 1977, as already mentioned.

[Granny Gremlin]

Good score with the JBL!  I find the stock Eminence better suited to guitar duties (these rigs were designed for guitar /bass usage), though it might be OK in combination with the JBL, depending on what sort of thing you're doing.

[Psycho Bass Guy]

The JBL is the bass (K) version of the infamous D-140. It's a pretty valuable driver.

Ruby is a testing/grading brand for mostly Chinese-produced tubes, like Groove Tubes, only without the bullshit. They're probably 100% Chinese now but I have seen a few Eastern European and Russian-made tubes that were Ruby-rebranded years ago. They're the house brand of Magic Parts, and probably one of the few large tube marketers whose tube matching data actually means anything.

China is making a couple of modern 6-CA7/EL-34's that would be ideal for a Music Man, and yours looks like it has one of those types, what I have seen sold as the "EL-34B." I always meant to try some in my Traynor, but I have so many old GE, Sovtek, and EI 6CA7's that I really can't justify buying them just to try in my small gigging amp. 

Congrats on the score.

[amptech]

Nice thread, I have a MusicMan HD130 with one 115RH and one 212RH as my main rig.

Now, I´d be careful to unleash full throttle into those ruby´s. At full power (130W - but I´ve seen them put out about 150w at idle) you´d really push the limits on those. I´ve had quite a few of these in my repair shop over the years, and remember they are designed for the U.S. 6CA7 tube - of course a similar tube electronically, but can withstand higher voltage and is a far better considering heat dissipation. Sovtek´s and cheap Chinese EL34´s, as already mentioned, may melt down and cause damage to the amp. They will do fine on the ´lo´setting of course, and do well in many amps including the B-15 or any amp without  7-800 volts pounding that poor anode..

The only EL34 tube I´ve seen work with full power in a MM HD130 over time is the Svetlana Winged ´C´.
I did have a unit into which I put a set of JJ´s (some EL34 special) that reportedly still works nicely, but I´m still stuck with  my recommendations. And if you have the tube driver model, get a decent 12AX7/ECC83 each time you change tubes. They work hard as well!   

[Psycho Bass Guy]

I've had MUCH better luck with cheapire Sovtek power tubes than Svetlana/Flying C. My Traynor cooked a very early pair of Svet EL34's, (they were properly biased, too) which I replaced with 90's Sovtek 6CA7's and they've held up fine. GE's and later Philips' 6CA7 isn't any better those. Ei made them for awhile as well. They're hard to find, but good. My experience with SVT's and their 6550's has been identical. Svetlana developed quite a reputation that they did not deserve. IMO, most of their big fans were either their distributors or techs who biased for idle current and never bothered to measure that the amps were only putting out 75-80% of rated power.

[amptech]

I've had MUCH better luck with cheapire Sovtek power tubes than Svetlana/Flying C. My Traynor cooked a very early pair of Svet EL34's, (they were properly biased, too) which I replaced with 90's Sovtek 6CA7's and they've held up fine. GE's and later Philips' 6CA7 isn't any better those. Ei made them for awhile as well. They're hard to find, but good. My experience with SVT's and their 6550's has been identical. Svetlana developed quite a reputation that they did not deserve. IMO, most of their big fans were either their distributors or techs who biased for idle current and never bothered to measure that the amps were only putting out 75-80% of rated power.

Hi!

I am only referring to my own experience as a tech, and although big fan of winged 'c' (not the U.S. Svetlana's), I am not trying to sell
anything or put sovtek out of business, but many MusicMen passing through me have had problems because of tube failure. The electro harmonics (sovtek) and various tubes selected by TAD is very often the cheapest you can buy in music stores here in scandinavia, and therefore what musicians buy. One problem, of course, is that a musician often pulls out worn 6CA7's and install new 'bettter' EL34's without checking the
bias. Most of the HD130/65's I've had here with tube drivers, also had old american 12AX7 - suggesting this was never replaced.
And, not everyone can hear that an amp is due to be serviced, thats for sure - no tube lasts forever. My bottom line, although you may be of the opinion that the Winged 'C' put out less power, when I measure amps (and tubes) after years of useage, they show very little wear in compearance to cheaper tubes.

Be aware that I'm new to this corner of the outpost forum, I do not visit these pages as a tech - but as a bass player. I do not spend much time
on the internet, but like the relaxed but very informative gibson pages. I don't visit talkbass and such forums, neither do I read tech forums.
Since yesterday, I've read through the amps section here, and I can see that you are a skilled amp-factsman. Now, I couldn't help chipping in on this thread, as I play a musicman stack myself -and although being an all tube lover - have special feelings for these amps. I have also worked on many MM's. If I get too technical in my replies here, feel free to moderate me - I'm here for gibby amusement, not work

[Psycho Bass Guy]

I am only referring to my own experience as a tech, and although big fan of winged 'c' (not the U.S. Svetlana's), I am not trying to sell anything or put sovtek out of business, but many MusicMen passing through me have had problems because of tube failure.

I'm sorry if it came off that way. That wasn't what I meant. I had no idea of your location, so that in itself is a huge qualifier as to our differing views. Svetlana had a separate Northeastern Europe distributor with a Russian contact at the factory that got better tubes than what was available in the US. I tried to order from them a few times, but they never replied to any of my inquires. They had a couple of models that were even completely unavailable at all in the US like the Svetlana EL509 II, which I would LOVE to get ahold of. "Svetlana," the US-based distributor, was corporately headquartered out of Birmingham, Alabama, and they're the ones who made the mess out of the trademark that ultimately led to the whole Flying C confusion and their QC was horrid. The only thing they got right was sending out tons of samples to guitar magazines and letting Eric Barbour promote the hell out them to hi-fi snobs.

The electro harmonics (sovtek) and various tubes selected by TAD is very often the cheapest you can buy in music stores here in scandinavia, and therefore what musicians buy.

TAD has a very good reputation in the US, but I don't have any personal experience with them since I stopped doing repairs before they hit the market. I have more than enough NOS RCA 6L6GC's that I shouldn't ever need them anyway and I prefer Ruby for their EL-34B's and pretty much any big bottled 6CA7. Sovtek stopped making those 15-20 years ago and the set I got about ten years ago was NOS at the time and came in a turqoise and white Sovtek box. Its construction is identical to the GE 6CA7 except for the crimps on the plate welds.

One problem, of course, is that a musician often pulls out worn 6CA7's and install new 'bettter' EL34's without checking the
bias. Most of the HD130/65's I've had here with tube drivers, also had old american 12AX7 - suggesting this was never replaced.
And, not everyone can hear that an amp is due to be serviced, thats for sure - no tube lasts forever.

Agreed and 90% of most amp problems are just musicians messing in things they shouldn't and trying to save a buck that ends up costing them ten times more in the long run.

My bottom line, although you may be of the opinion that the Winged 'C' put out less power, when I measure amps (and tubes) after years of useage, they show very little wear in compearance to cheaper tubes.

Of course they're going to be longer lived; they have to be biased well below rated power to keep from cherrying. The bottom line with Svetlana/Flying C is that almost none of their power tubes actually meet their published data sheet specs for output power. They'll handle plenty of voltage biased cold, but what's the point?

Be aware that I'm new to this corner of the outpost forum, I do not visit these pages as a tech - but as a bass player. I do not spend much time
on the internet, but like the relaxed but very informative gibson pages.

I try to keep things informal and somewhat relaxed, but I do like to make a huge point of making sure that tech comments are put into the proper context because there is so much hype/misinformation/outright bullshit about amps on the internet. You HAVE experience working on amps using the tubes that you're talking about. That is, BY FAR, the exception rather than the rule on bass forums. I welcome your input and we certainly can have differeing views. The 'problem' I have is when folks claim knowledge that they clearly do not possess, and that is NOT the case with you.

I don't visit talkbass and such forums,

You're better off for it. Technical accuracy on Talkbass is as much of an oxymoron as truth in politics.

Since yesterday, I've read through the amps section here, and I can see that you are a skilled amp-factsman. Now, I couldn't help chipping in on this thread, as I play a musicman stack myself -and although being an all tube lover - have special feelings for these amps. I have also worked on many MM's. If I get too technical in my replies here, feel free to moderate me - I'm here for gibby amusement, not work

You don't have anything to worry about. You are actually informed. There are others who speak authoritatively on amps who are not. Opinions presented as such and experience are always respected here. Self-aggrandizing BS is not, and as I said before, you have NOTHING to worry about in that department. It's nice to bounce experience off of other experienced techs. If you're interested, I am a member of another forum that's all about working on amps that is every bit as laid back as this place with guys who have been working on amps for decades that will still take the time to explain to the guy who Googled the forum and wants to put 6V6's in his Fender Twin why he shouldn't do it in as plainspoken terms as possible, but always with the experience, knowledge base, and references to conclusively support that advice should the need arise to provide it.

Other forums have set a tremendously bad example by treating disagreement or even discussion from differing viewpoints as fighting, and because of that, lots of bad information becomes accepted and treated as fact because it is "disrespectful" to correct it. You don't have to worry about disagreeing with me ever. I take legit disagreement just fine. I just won't tolerate bullshit.

[amptech]

Ok, great - I really appreciate having a corner where similar minds can speak.

Svetlana had a separate Northeastern Europe distributor with a Russian contact at the factory that got better tubes than what was available in the US. I tried to order from them a few times, but they never replied to any of my inquires. They had a couple of models that were even completely unavailable at all in the US like the Svetlana EL509 II, which I would LOVE to get ahold of.

Well, if you have any weird tube wishes they might come true in my homeland.
I buy directly from the Northern Europe importer of Winged ´C´, PM Guitartubes and different HiFi tubes if you can call them that. He has an extreme level of knowledge when it comes to tubes - and I am aware that many claim they are. He is very old, and it is a delight to know him - he´s been a collector since the 70´s i think, and he posesses knowledge of tube machinery and manufacturing that is from another time.
The good thing is that he never had a webshop:-) He can meet ANY requests.

Sounds crazy, but when I started to build amps for myself some 15 years ago, there was a handful of places (or communities, if you wish) where you could buy quality NOS, used or new parts and tubes, trannies, printed schematics for next to nothing. A nice, 60´s preamp tube, mullard, telefunken, whatever you wish- 10 bucks... Of course, European tubes are more  easily available here than in the U.S., but my bottom line is - tube prices (and quality) as presented on large webshops, ebay, forums etc. is for the common scandinavian unreal. If every collector put up a webshop, prices would go up - but I think there is a different mentality over here.

Oh, back to the thread - how did that MusicMan rig turn out?

[drbassman]

The first MM rig is working wonderfully with the Mesa and Ampeg 15" cabs.  It is such a great combo with my basses.  The richness of the tone and depth is really noticeable.  Plenty of volume for our club.

The second MM rig I just bought with the two MM cabs is acting up.  It's making some weird sounds and my guitar player, who plays tube amps, says it might a tube issue.  We'll check it out and report back.

[godofthunder]

Almost always pre amp tubes for me.

[drbassman]

Almost always pre amp tubes for me.

Yep, we have practice tomorrow night, so I'll fiddle with it some then.  My new rig set up is to run a Y box to both MM amps creating a 4 x 15" scheme.  Don't need the volume so much as I like to disperse the sound around the stage area, put a speaker behind the guitar player and the drummer.  Worked well till the one MM amp started making noises.

I do have an outdoor gig coming up next month, so the two amps, 4 speakers will be necessary for sure.  My fallback position till be to run the one rig (2 MM cabs) with my Mesa amp if necessary.