Acoustic bass questions

[rahock]

I have never seen the internal construction of a Tacoma/Olympia , but they project extremely well through a fairly small paisely shaped hole and although the body is fairly large, it is not very deep. Other than that design, the only ABGs that project are big and deep bodies with a big ole' round hole.
The largest I've seen is my Earthwood and the second is the old Guild , both dreadnaught style. The Tacoma/Olympia design is about on par with the projection of the old Guild.  After that, there isn't much. There are a couple others that sound pretty good, but I can't think of anything that projects , other that what I've mentioned. Even with the Earthwood, Guild and Tacoma/Olympia, you have to keep your action set considerably higher than you would on your electric bass and you've got to REALLY dig in with your right hand (picking hand).   Your right hand has got to be up to the task or nobody
is going to hear you five feet away no matter what ABG you play. It's different and it takes a bit of getting used to. You  have to make some physical adjustments to adapt to the instrument, rather than make adjustments to the instrument so it can adapt to you.
Rick

[nofi]

this abg top appears to be half and half? only 7,500 bux.
http://ribbeckehalfling.com/BVB.html

[rahock]

this abg top appears to be half and half? only 7,500 bux.
http://ribbeckehalfling.com/BVB.html

Ouch! What did you pay for your Olympia?
Rick

[nofi]

235.

[Granny Gremlin]

I have no idea what tiny jazz boxes you're talking about, but compare an acoustic archtop guitar to a flattop of the same size and the flattop will easy have more fundamental. Theory be damned. The thicker top more than negates any advantage of the arch. You would need a lot more air to make it work. Turn an Earthwood into an archtop and you'd strangle it.

Almost any F hole archtop acoustic is smaller than any flat top dreadnaught style one, so such comparisons are not possible.  The dreadnaught was specifically designed to give more bass response by making the body bigger.  Hence the name (aka jumbo acoustic).  If you're going to be such an impiracist, then control ALL the variables aside from the one being tested.

An arched top also need not be thicker then a flat top.  Second, if carved (vs shaped ply) it is much more resonant then a flat (cross grain) ply top.

An earthwood-size guitar with solid carved top and back would be bassier. It's more air/bigger sound chamber .... It would also be incredibly expensive.

Where I concede to you is that a cheap archtop really suffers in the ways you describe.  Moreso than a cheap flat top.

Upright is the way to go...huge scale length and large sound chamber are what make the sound.

Exactly.  The main diff between an ABG and an upright - larger body,with arched back and top.  Much bassier. 

[nofi]

someone always drags an upright into abg discussions. that is irrelevant.

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=huge+acoustic+bass+guitar&qpvt=huge+acoustic+bass+guitar&FORM=IGRE#view=detail&id=8441C9FD767F1455A7555D248FC3124398A8CFB0&selectedIndex=1
this should be a loud archtop.

http://www.rockzone.com/interviews/images/femmes1.jpg
and this earthwood a loud flat top.

[rahock]

I would love to have an upright and before I die I probably will. I move around a lot when I play. I haven't even used a conventional cord in several years, I'm always using my Line 6 wireless unit. Standing in one place behind an upright would be very difficult for me and dancing around dragging that big ole' hunk -o- wood probably wouldn't work for me either .
Upright and ABG are two very different instruments. If someone wants to buy an upright, I think they should. If someone wants to buy an ABG, I also think they should. I have little advice on uprights, since I've never owned one and have very limited time playing one. I do have a bit of advice on ABGs, since I have been playing them off and on since 1972 and have had my hands on most of what is out there. Most of what is out there is stuff I don't like, but there are a few winners and if you're using a little amplification the list would grow a little bigger.
Rick

[Pilgrim]

I played uprights through junior high and high school, and had an old Kay white plywood bass for years.  WISH fervently I hadn't had to sell it, but I needed to move it and couldn't transport it 2000 miles to Texas at the time.

I'm looking at the electric uprights and considering getting one of them.  I have little doubt they would be easier on the finger than an upright, and I know damn well they'd be easier to move around.  The biggest pain of having an upright is that it is a pain in the butt to move, and it has to be handled with due care.  It's not made of glass but it requires careful handling.

My ABG is a fun instrument, very handy for practice, but due to the bridge design it's difficult to set up he action as well as I can on any electric.  That's just part of the nature of the beastie.  But I don't regret having it for a moment.

I'm looking at the WAV-4 models and reading reviews.  I haven't seen any in stores to test drive, so when the time comes I'll have to make a best guess.  I don't expect it to sound like an upright but if I can get 80% there I'll be happy.  Besides, I think the novelty factor of having it on stage would be a plus anyway.

[rahock]

On advice from nofi, I put a set of LaBella tapewound strings on my Olympia and it got very uprightish . Got to be amplifed with those tapewounds but it sounds great. I did an outdoor electric/acoustic party a few years ago and the bass player from another group had a Martin that was a little over $2,000. They are nice but no projection and overpriced. He was floored by the sound I was getting and he figured I was playing a 4 or 5000 dollar instrument .
Nofi paid $235 for his and I think I paid about $285 for mine with a beautiful Tacoma hardshell case. The guy with the Martin was almost in tears. To be fair, he was having some pick up problems, but my cheapo Fishman PU was just fine .
Rick

[Pilgrim]

On advice from nofi, I put a set of LaBella tapewound strings on my Olympia and it got very uprightish . Got to be amplifed with those tapewounds but it sounds great. I did an outdoor electric/acoustic party a few years ago and the bass player from another group had a Martin that was a little over $2,000. They are nice but no projection and overpriced. He was floored by the sound I was getting and he figured I was playing a 4 or 5000 dollar instrument .
Nofi paid $235 for his and I think I paid about $285 for mine with a beautiful Tacoma hardshell case. The guy with the Martin was almost in tears. To be fair, he was having some pick up problems, but my cheapo Fishman PU was just fine .
Rick

I am not prone to argue about Martin's quality - great instruments, beautifully made.  But this just helps to illustrate that inexpensive instruments can perform extremely well when they're set up properly and played by someone who knows what they're doing,

[Dave W]

Almost any F hole archtop acoustic is smaller than any flat top dreadnaught style one, so such comparisons are not possible.  The dreadnaught was specifically designed to give more bass response by making the body bigger.  Hence the name (aka jumbo acoustic).  If you're going to be such an impiracist, then control ALL the variables aside from the one being tested.

An arched top also need not be thicker then a flat top.  Second, if carved (vs shaped ply) it is much more resonant then a flat (cross grain) ply top.

An earthwood-size guitar with solid carved top and back would be bassier. It's more air/bigger sound chamber .... It would also be incredibly expensive.

Where I concede to you is that a cheap archtop really suffers in the ways you describe.  Moreso than a cheap flat top.

Go back and reread what I said: compare an acoustic archtop guitar to a flattop of the same size and the flattop will easily have more fundamental. And size for size, it would be extremely rare to find an archtop with as thin a top as a flattop.

You clearly don't know enough about design to know whether or not an Earthwood with a solid arched top and back would be bassier. You also don't understand why archtops use the typical bridge and trapeze tailpiece vs. the flattop bridge, or else you wouldn't have wondered why ABGs don't use them. There is a lot more to design that just substituting a different type bridge or substituting an arched top.

There's a reason arched body upright basses have a lot of bass: they have huge bodies to move the needed amount of air. The only way to get even remotely near that with the guitar-sized body of an ABG is with the flattop designs that exist. If archtops of the same size could get an equal amount of both bass and projection as the flattop ABGs, you can bet the market would be full of them.

[patman]

A cheap plywood acoustic guitar or even upright bass can sound better than a mediocre all solid-wood more expensive instrument.

I've played some great plywood uprights...one plywood "American Standard" (no, not a toilet) stands out in my mind as one of the best basses I've ever heard. Kays are often awesome.  I had an Englehardt Swingmaster...set up to perfection.  Never should have let it go.

Sold it when money was tight and the kids were little.

I will have another good playing "white trash" (as in not likely to ever see dead European orchestra music) upright i.e. Kay, Englehardt King et. al. before I retire.  It would be great in the Cincy Rockers. It's sort of a part of my identity that I lost, and that I would like to regain.

[rahock]

I am not prone to argue about Martin's quality - great instruments, beautifully made.  But this just helps to illustrate that inexpensive instruments can perform extremely well when they're set up properly and played by someone who knows what they're doing,

I came real close to buying a Martin several years ago. I first played it in a perfect sound room and it sounded fantastic and projected really well. In a less than perfect room I found it lacking in projection. Still felt great and sounded great, but it made me apreciate my Earthwoods capability that much more . I bought the Olympia to keep from dragging the now expensive Earthwood out. Fell in love with the cheapo Olympia in the end .
Rick

[nofi]

i didn't get a case with my olympia so you came out way ahead on that deal, rick.

[Pilgrim]

My Applause with hard case was about $200 used On Ebay. Well bought, I think.