Dear Connecticut...

[Aussie Mark]

Geez.  We can't do anything right.

That's a bit harsh - other than banking regulations, gun laws, beer brewing and cheese making, Americans do ok.

[patman]

The solution is liability insurance. Just like cars.  There is a risk that a gun will be misused (just like a car).  Make gun owners buy insurance (Ohio requires car insurance-why not gun insurance).  Underwriters will do the rest.  They will figure out what the probablity of a certain model gun being misused is, and what the expected damages are from an instance of misuse.  They will have to examine age, educational level, credit score (if you're not responsible enough to pay bills I don't want you with a gun). They will need to examine all people in a given household. They will actively promote gun safety.

They will be able to determine who is a good risk and who is not.  People who are not good risks may find insurance expensive. Let the market set the price.  You still have the right to own a gun, but you have to responsibly indemnify society against its potential misuse.

There is good beer here...just not from any of the large brewers...

[uwe]

The insurance thing is actually one way to go about it.

[uwe]

Lieber George (that nice and most American of names): You have already in your posting given the answer why I criticize certain aspects of America (among the many great things America stand for and can be proud of), yet you don't return the favor for Germany: You simply don't give a shit. Not because you are ignorant or an uneducated man - the opposite is patently true -, but because Germany plays little role in your life. That is a perfectly sensible stance for an American (no irony or arrogance from me).

I, on the other hand, do give a shit about the US. It's one hell of an important country. To me and billions of people on earth. Still the most important one actually. An economic, cultural, military, political, natural resources and even moral giant. Moral giant not because you are saints and not because you never ill-advisedly waterboard people, but because even when the US does evil, bad, silly or wrong things (as any nation sometimes does, tell me, we've done our outsize share!), you still carry with you that image of the Statue of Liberty the French gave to you. It's your eternal shadow. Your comparatively short history says nothing about your manifold importance in the world. (Although I sometimes wonder whether your scepticism of government - a sociological necessity in my view, I never believed in anarcho-syndicalism as a way forward - has its roots in the fact that you have little experience of how debilitating the absence of if not great, then at least decent government can be.) "You guys" (here I use the term indeed for all Americans as they are important to the world as a collective, in the previous post I meant those of you that share the conspiracy fears) burp and the world has quakes, that is how important you are. And while you sometimes want to isolate yourself from the world, the world won't let you go.

The US still is for a large part of mankind the big brother (not in an Orwellian sense, but in the original sense of an elder sibling) that is secretly or openly admired. You are right, George, your system has by and large worked over the last 200 years (and I sincerely wish that it continues to work for you at least another 200 years, I would hate a world without an important America). There is lot in it worthy of emulation. But it goes with the admiration one has for the big brother that the fact that he is only human (and occasionally does silly, wrong or even bad and evil things) inevitably sometimes disappoints. The world would like America to be perfect. It isn't, nothing is, but the desire to have the US as that unversal role model, flawless, fearless, athletic, yet gentle and thoughtful, but with that can-do attitude please, is not anti-Americanism. It's a longing for hope and an immaculate future, quasi-religious even.

Ironically, "you" (= all Americans again) are often admired for things that mean relatively little to many of you, the fact that you have a black President for instance. If Obama ran in Germany he would have 90% of the popular vote according to a recent survey, he - for better or worse - represents the better "unugly" America many of us still crave for in their hearts. He is universally popular with German conservatives, liberal-conservatives, ecological "greens" and socialdemocrats, I guess we appreciate his thoughtfulness where you register a lack of emotion (we're done with emotional, charismatic leaders , let me tell you ...). Many of you might shake their head at this because you feel he is dismantling the American Dream, but to the world at large he embodies the American Dream.

Anyway, back to the topic, "you guys" are too important to be ignored and so likable (and with a long row of positive historic achievements) that "we" sometimes despair if we see - from our view - something going awfully wrong in your wonderful country. Shot American school children are nothing to gloat about, believe me. And the fact that "you" then don't even consider "ok, let's try to do without this over-abundance and -availability of guns for a while and see what impact it has", but retreat in your "Second-Amendment-tyrannical government-we are all constantly being lied to and reality is only one big conspiracy"-neurosis shell ... well, that is sometimes - lovable as you are - hard to stomach.

Ever thought that the world (ignoring Usama and his cronies) not so much hates or looks down on you, but simply very much cares for the good things you have done and your positive ideals? That doesn't make the world always right and America always wrong, but here in the LBO is a good place to discuss it given the astounding variety and quality of intellects and backgrounds.

That said, your non-metric system is still crap  , but I will always salute you and your ancestors for getting rid of Hitler!  

[drbassman]

The metric system is for sissies.

You humble me Uwe with your kind words about my homeland.  Thanks for sharing your feelings.  I wish the 20 something generation had as much character and self-reliance as my father's.  I'd be a lot more optimistic.

The media is still corrupt, but maybe we can find a way around that somehow. 

[Pilgrim]

Edited (because the message was badly out of place anyway...)

Uwe, that is an extremely thoughtful and incisive post.  Thank you.

[OldManC]

Shot American school children are nothing to gloat about, believe me. And the fact that "you" then don't even consider "ok, let's try to do without this over-abundance and -availability of guns for a while and see what impact it has", but retreat in your "Second-Amendment-tyrannical government-we are all constantly being lied to and reality is only one big conspiracy"-neurosis shell ... well, that is sometimes - lovable as you are - hard to stomach.

Uwe, I appreciate your thoughtful reply. That said, I hope I can get you to understand that your view of my (our) thinking, as evidenced by the statement above, is not even close to what my thinking is on the matter. I absolutely abhor that these deaths occurred, as well as those that have happened elsewhere in mall shootings, theater, etc. As I abhor the greater number of deaths inflicted by my own government in Waco, or the even greater number of deaths facilitated by my government via their gun running operation in the American Southwest. That most of the dead from that adventure are Mexican Nationals doesn't lessen the tragedy one iota (though our national media seems to feel otherwise). The difference is that I don't blame firearms for any of those deaths. Firearms are tools. In the hands of well trained citizens they stop more shootings and other crimes every single day, including mass shooting sprees but most don't hear about those because they don't fit the settled agenda, therefore our national media ignore such events.

http://www.kgw.com/news/Clackamas-man-armed-confronts-mall-shooter-183593571.html

I fully support an effort to address these issues in a thoughtful and substantive way, I just don't believe that goal is served by additional firearms restrictions (the so called "assault weapons ban instituted during the Clinton administration didn't stop such violence). Besides the 2nd amendment issues to be considered, such actions would do nothing to prevent future gun violence. Let's have that conversation, but let's talk about the kind of people who are doing these things and what leads them to do so, and not focus with such a ridiculous single-minded obsession on the tools they choose like some totem seeking cargo cult.

[dadagoboi]

The governors of New York and Connecticut have been making strong statements regarding gun control.  No matter the particulars it's obvious they believe there is support in their states for stronger laws...or at the very least have calculated it is an issue that appeals to their bases.  Cuomo has aspirations to national office, he's making statements that no smart pol would without very carefully figuring where the votes are now or will be down the line. 

[patman]

Let the firearms owners bear the costs of their "tools".  Right now society-at-large is bearing the cost of irresponsible gun ownership. That cost should be paid by the pool of gun owners.

[uwe]

Uwe, I appreciate your thoughtful reply. That said, I hope I can get you to understand that your view of my (our) thinking, as evidenced by the statement above, is not even close to what my thinking is on the matter. I absolutely abhor that these deaths occurred, as well as those that have happened elsewhere in mall shootings, theater, etc. As I abhor the greater number of deaths inflicted by my own government in Waco, or the even greater number of deaths facilitated by my government via their gun running operation in the American Southwest. That most of the dead from that adventure are Mexican Nationals doesn't lessen the tragedy one iota (though our national media seems to feel otherwise). The difference is that I don't blame firearms for any of those deaths. Firearms are tools. In the hands of well trained citizens they stop more shootings and other crimes every single day, including mass shooting sprees but most don't hear about those because they don't fit the settled agenda, therefore our national media ignore such events.

http://www.kgw.com/news/Clackamas-man-armed-confronts-mall-shooter-183593571.html

I fully support an effort to address these issues in a thoughtful and substantive way, I just don't believe that goal is served by additional firearms restrictions (the so called "assault weapons ban instituted during the Clinton administration didn't stop such violence). Besides the 2nd amendment issues to be considered, such actions would do nothing to prevent future gun violence. Let's have that conversation, but let's talk about the kind of people who are doing these things and what leads them to do so, and not focus with such a ridiculous single-minded obsession on the tools they choose like some totem seeking cargo cult.

The guns, what kind and how freely available they are, are certainly not the only issue, granted, but your argument enshrines them in having nothing to do with it at all. That is a bold statement and I believe it is driven by political dogma only: You abhor government intervention (way too much Ayn Rand, George, I told you you should have read something decent once in a while as a young man ) and your instinct is to deny its usefulness in almost any domestic situation. It's a puristic viewpoint, but that is George Carlston for you, smart but dogmatic.   But would that conviction in you have survived if one of your children had lain in Sandy Hook?

"Firearms are tools."

But they are tools to kill, George. Animals or humans. That is their primary historic purpose, the sporting thing came only later. And you seem to have less concerns about regulating the disposal of waste oil into a river than about regulating these tools. You're sure that that is what the fathers of your (in most other aspects: positively iconic) Constitution had in mind? The English King is no longer threatening you.

[drbassman]

Well, since some folks don't want to recognize American reasons for bearing arms, maybe someone from "out of town" will help clarify.  BTW, Uwe, I admire your tenacity and thoughfulness, but you really are becoming the proverbial "broken record."

Americans never give up your guns

28.12.2012 12:15; Pravda

By Stanislav Mishin


These days, there are few things to admire about the socialist, bankrupt and culturally degenerating USA, but at least so far, one thing remains: the right to bear arms and use deadly force to defend one's self and possessions.

This will probably come as a total shock to most of my Western readers, but at one point, Russia was one of the most heavily armed societies on earth. This was, of course, when we were free under the Tsar. Weapons, from swords and spears to pistols, rifles and shotguns were everywhere, common items. People carried them concealed, they carried them holstered. Fighting knives were a prominent part of many traditional attires and those little tubes criss crossing on the costumes of Cossacks and various Caucasian peoples? Well those are bullet holders for rifles.

Various armies, such as the Poles, during the CMYTA (Times of Troubles), or Napoleon, or the Germans even as the Tsarist state collapsed under the weight of WW1 and Wall Street monies, found that holding Russian lands was much much harder than taking them and taking was no easy walk in the park but a blood bath all its own. In holding, one faced an extremely well armed and aggressive population Hell bent on exterminating or driving out the aggressor.

This well armed population was what allowed the various White factions to rise up, no matter how disorganized politically and militarily they were in 1918 and wage a savage civil war against the Reds. It should be noted that many of these armies were armed peasants, villagers, farmers and merchants, protecting their own. If it had not been for Washington's clandestine support of and for the Reds, history would have gone quite differently.

Moscow fell, for example, not from a lack of weapons to defend it, but from the lying guile of the Reds. Ten thousand Reds took Moscow and were opposed only by some few hundreds of officer cadets and their instructors. Even then the battle was fierce and losses high. However, in the city alone, at that time, lived over 30,000 military officers (both active and retired), all with their own issued weapons and ammunition, plus tens of thousands of other citizens who were armed. The Soviets promised to leave them all alone if they did not intervene. They did not and for that were asked afterwards to come register themselves and their weapons: where they were promptly shot.

Of course being savages, murderers and liars does not mean being stupid and the Reds learned from their Civil War experience. One of the first things they did was to disarm the population. From that point, mass repression, mass arrests, mass deportations, mass murder, mass starvation were all a safe game for the powers that were. The worst they had to fear was a pitchfork in the guts or a knife in the back or the occasional hunting rifle. Not much for soldiers.

To this day, with the Soviet Union now dead 21 years, with a whole generation born and raised to adulthood without the SU, we are still denied our basic and traditional rights to self defense. Why? We are told that everyone would just start shooting each other and crime would be everywhere....but criminals are still armed and still murdering and too often, especially in the far regions, those criminals wear the uniforms of the police. The fact that everyone would start shooting is also laughable when statistics are examined.

While President Putin pushes through reforms, the local authorities, especially in our vast hinterland, do not feel they need to act like they work for the people. They do as they please, a tyrannical class who knows they have absolutely nothing to fear from a relatively unarmed population. This in turn breeds not respect but absolute contempt and often enough, criminal abuse.

For those of us fighting for our traditional rights, the US 2nd Amendment is a rare light in an ever darkening room. Governments will use the excuse of trying to protect the people from maniacs and crime, but are in reality, it is the bureaucrats protecting their power and position. In all cases where guns are banned, gun crime continues and often increases. As for maniacs, be it nuts with cars (NYC, Chapel Hill NC), swords (Japan), knives (China) or home made bombs (everywhere), insane people strike. They throw acid (Pakistan, UK), they throw fire bombs (France), they attack. What is worse, is, that the best way to stop a maniac is not psychology or jail or "talking to them", it is a bullet in the head, that is why they are a maniac, because they are incapable of living in reality or stopping themselves.

The excuse that people will start shooting each other is also plain and silly. So it is our politicians saying that our society is full of incapable adolescents who can never be trusted? Then, please explain how we can trust them or the police, who themselves grew up and came from the same culture?

No it is about power and a total power over the people. There is a lot of desire to bad mouth the Tsar, particularly by the Communists, who claim he was a tyrant, and yet under him we were armed and under the progressives disarmed. Do not be fooled by a belief that progressives, leftists hate guns. Oh, no, they do not. What they hate is guns in the hands of those who are not marching in lock step of their ideology. They hate guns in the hands of those who think for themselves and do not obey without question. They hate guns in those whom they have slated for a barrel to the back of the ear.

So, do not fall for the false promises and do not extinguish the light that is left to allow humanity a measure of self respect.

Stanislav Mishin

[uwe]

Herr Doctor, be careful who you cite, academic quality this ain't and totally beneath the very good stuff you write yourself (and which I always enjoy reading), it is a pamphlet by a Russian nationalist nutcase revisionist. One sentence can invalidate  a whole piece of work and give the agenda away:

"This was, of course, when we were free under the Tsar."

Ah so, I remember clearly the Russian referendum before the freedom-loving Tsar took the wise decision to enter WW I. All was well before that little Battleship Potemkin incident too. Or the Tsar's peaceful and benign exchange of political ideas with striking workers in St. Petersburg 1905.



Next week in revisionism class: Why Reza Pahlavi, Augusto Pinochet and Fulgencio Batista were good democrats too. And how prevalence of guns is a sound democracy indicator.

[drbassman]

I couldn't resist!  No matter how I searched, I just couldn't find a citation from a German writer telling us to keep our guns!     Say, why didn't the Germans invade Switzerland in 1940?  Don't answer, just kidding!

Seriously, just give us, i.e. progressives, a few more decades and the US won't look any different than any contmeporary European country.  Speaking of revisionism, have you read Howard Zinn's book?  It rivals the Russian piece in it's audacity and bias.

[patman]

BTW...the media may be corrupt but...every American should be thankful for their relatively free media...Whenever there is a serious problem in government, someone in the media finds out, and rats on it. Think Watergate.  Far more than side-arms, a free media functions to keep us free. God bless the media.

Same with the rest of the world.  When atrocities are "outed" by the media, they eventually get, if not corrected, then better. Think Yugoslavia.  Think George Clooney in Africa.

Before the days of free media, no one would have known about "ethnic cleansing"...certainly Darfur would have been totally unknown.

[drbassman]

BTW...the media may be corrupt but...every American should be thankful for their relatively free media...Whenever there is a serious problem in government, someone in the media finds out, and rats on it. Think Watergate.  Far more than side-arms, a free media functions to keep us free. God bless the media.

Same with the rest of the world.  When atrocities are "outed" by the media, they eventually get, if not corrected, then better. Think Yugoslavia.  Think George Clooney in Africa.

Before the days of free media, no one would have known about "ethnic cleansing"...certainly Darfur would have been totally unknown.

Right on, Patman.  We really do enjoy a free, open media.  I think the internet has opened up an entire new world of freedom and access to information, and often, truth.  The US media, however, is also free to be biased, so consumer beware and always read/check multiple sources if you really want to know the closest thing to the truth.  In the end, logic, credibility and credulity are key to discerning what's what.