Mozzie...!

[Highlander]

Some footage from within the cockpit in flight; take-off to touch-down; some formation flying (Spitfire and a Venom?) - listen through headphones, as loud as you can tolerate, and it still won't be loud enough - maybe through a good sound system, with a mega SUB-WOOF...

[clankenstein]

wow that must have surpised a few people in downtown auckland.

[Hörnisse]

One of my favorite planes!  Scott, I had several of those models that you have in your collection.  I really loved building the Revell 1/32 scale aircraft.

Watched this movie more than a few times.   

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0064699/

[Hörnisse]

When oh when will there ever be a movie devoted to the beloved (by me) Hörnisse?   

[Big_Stu]

Some footage from within the cockpit in flight..........

Brilliant! So good I felt a little airsick in the turn!

I think it was a '70s thing, but did you guys Stateside get comic books such as "Commando"?.........One of my top ones was IIRC called "Lone Wolf" about a pilot who was grounded from a squadron of Mosquitos for whatever reason, so he cannibalised all the wrecked ones to build his own 'plane, which he painted all black and flew on solo missions.

It was called "Black Mozzie" apparently, now I have to find & buy one without getting a   off my other half!

[the mojo hobo]

When oh when will there ever be a movie devoted to the beloved (by me) Hörnisse?   

I guess I shouldn't be surprised that the top two results of a search for "Hörnisse" are at bassoutpost.com

[uwe]

Time for some pest control me thinks, nothing that a hearty 4 x 30 mm cannon round can't solve with a wooden airframe:

[TBird1958]

The airframe wouldn't even slow a 30 mm round!


That's quite a piece of art tho!

[Big_Stu]

Has that 262 pilot been eating carrots too to be able to find a mossie in the dark, let alone hit it, with no radar antennae?

[Highlander]

Is there much info on confirmed "kills" for ME262's...?

The 262 was pretty much the only thing that might have been able to catch a Mozzie but from what I understand, nowhere near as maneuverable...

[uwe]

Has that 262 pilot been eating carrots too to be able to find a mossie in the dark, let alone hit it, with no radar antennae?

Only the early two seat night fighter Me 262s had the antenna jungle up front, later versions hid everything aerodynamically in the snout, we're an engineering nation, you know how we develop things! But when I first saw that pic I thought too: What a howler, they forgot the radar!

I have no idea whether there are confirmed battles between Me 262 nightfighters and Mosquitos, especially as German pilots were pretty appalling in telling Allied airplane types apart (so many Hurricanes were shot down as P-40ies in North Africa and vice versa, Tempests and Typhoons as Thunderbolts, Mosquitos as Lightnings, Air Cobras as Hurricanes, Mustangs as Spitfires etc), but I do remember an Me 262/Mosquito Airfix battle set so there might at least be some lore about it ("fastest German fighter against fastest English one", there were apparently no battles between Me 262s and Meteors, by the time the few meteors arrived, most Me 262s were grounded for lack of kerosene and spare parts). As Mosquitos were often used for target marketing for the RAF bomber fleets, there was at least an instigation for the Me 262s to hunt and shoot them down rather than save their cannon shells for the big ones.

The Me 262's strength was certainly not manoeuvrability - is that even feasible that a jet figther can be as manoevrable as a propeller one of similar size? -, but it could outclimb, outdive, out-speed, out-altitude and out-gun pretty much anything around in German skies 1944-45.  I would imagine that in a nightfight scenario the poor Mossie had little chance to use its manoeuvrability superiority, the Me 262 would creep up from behind and be so fast coming in that by the time the RAF men noticed it, the 30 mm shells had already wreaked havoc - and you didn't need to hit with a lot of those to down any Allied aircraft, wooden frame or not.

Wait for it! Look what I just found:

http://www.2worldwar2.com/me-262.htm

"Feb. 1945 - An attempt by bomber pilots flying the Me-262 to intercept allied heavy bombers ends with failure. Six of the ten Me-262s are shot down for one damaged American bomber. The night-fighter version of the Me-262 makes its debut. The small jet night fighter unit has just 10 aircraft, and it flies a total of just 70 sorties until the end of the war, but they shoot down 48 allied aircraft, including 43 Mosquitoes."

Pest control alright! 

[Big_Stu]

Impressive research Uwe!!
I vaguely remember a story of prop/jet dogfights in Korea; with a piston engined aircraft shooting down a Mig15 due to tighter turning circles.

[uwe]

Danke! Here is more, inter alia documenting that the manoeuvrability of the Mossie could indeed save it in daylight (the 30 mm shells, lethal as they were, had a slow shell rate which didn't make hitting a moving target any easier, their purpose was to down lumbering four engine bombers with one burst, not dog fighting with another fighter):

http://www.mossie.org/stories/Norman_Malayney_2.htm

[Psycho Bass Guy]

The Me 262's strength was certainly not manoeuvrability - is that even feasible that a jet figther can be as manoevrable as a propeller one of similar size? -, but it could outclimb, outdive, out-speed, out-altitude and out-gun pretty much anything around in German skies 1944-45.

Nowadays, with better understanding of aerodynamics, small jet fighters are extremely maneuverable, but they're mostly trainers because modern missiles and bombs generally require larger aircraft. The F-5/T-38, BAE Hawk, Yak-130, and quite a few other small jets are roughly equivalent to WWII prop fighters in size. The ME-262's most comparable modern analog is the A-10 Warthog, which even without modern missiles, radar, and extremely tough airframe, would make shot work of an ME-262 because it has enough wing area for (what is now) low speed turning. It also has a 30mm cannon which can punch holes in modern tanks. Ironically much of its (and its Soviet counterpart the Su-25) design was directly influenced BY the ME262, but that can be said of literally every modern jet.

Don't feel bad about losing your technical marvels to arguably inferior aircraft. Even the mighty F-14 Tomcat was shot down by an Iraqi Mig-21 (after it had already splashed a Mig 23 and suffered an engine failure.) Lest you feel I'm being unjustly American 'cowboy proud,' I think you should look into the Nellis exercises where current Eurofighters heartily embarassed the F-22 Raptor. The F-22 and F-35 have a LONG way to go before they ever even begin to claim anything against their modern adversaries.

The Mosquito is a marvel; prettiest and meanest piece of flying furniture ever, IMO (not an insult BTW.) Its closest WWII US counterpart was the P-38, and its pilots learned VERY quickly to engage in high speed and altitude diving attacks against Japanese Zeros because turning dogfights were likewise their Achillies heel. The difference was the US had enough experienced pilots to utilize its aircraft properly. By the time the ME-262 came along, the Luftwaffe was a desperate shadow of its former self with few pilots who could appreciate and take advantage of its capabilities.

[uwe]

True for FW 190 and Me 109 pilots, but the few fighter Me 262s only got into the hands of very experienced pilots or even aces. That didn't help you though when a rednosed Mustang strafed you on the ground at the airfield or you lacked kerosene and ammo for longer engagements.

The P-38 did well in the Pacific, but Luftwaffe pilots were largely unimpressed.  Of course it was at the time the only US fighter with the range and altitude capabilites to guard the B-17 and -24 fleets. The Luftwaffe pilots respected the Thunderbolt though it wasn't really what they regarded a proper fighter. The first US fighter that really impressed them was the P-51, I guess it met more with their concept of what a fighter should look and feel like when being flown.

The Luftwaffe never had a fighter with really good manoeuvrability. As such, the Me 262's bad turn radius was nothing new for them and did not warrant adjustment of tactics, they had all lived and breathed that you could almost always outdive Allied fighters, often outclimb them, but almost never outturn them. The Me 109, small as it was, could be outturned by nearly any Allied fighter, the late-war Gustav version was even more unmanoeuvrable. The Focke-Wulf 190 was more manoeuvrable than the Me 109 but still less manoeuvrable than almost all other Allied single engine opponents. Of course, the crux of the Focke Wulf 190 A (the air-cooled engine model, the D model with its liquid-cooled engine was excellent at high altitudes, but only came out in September 44 when quality had become largely irrelevant versus quantity) - was its rapidly deteriorating performance at 20,000 feet and above, but that was the altitude where most of the Western Front air battles from late 1943 onwards took place, which is why the Focke-Wulf did better in Russia where low altitude fighting was the norm. That said, Russian pilots deemed the Me 109 the more formidable opponent while Western Allied pilots flying captured Me 109s and FW 190ies preferred the latter for its more good-natured handling.