EVH nearly killed by Master Cleanse diet?

[gweimer]

I always viewed Thin Lizzy as similar to UFO in the respect that they would put out a great album and follow it with a mediocre one.  Jailbreak broke them, but the follow-up was a let down.

[uwe]

They also played a lot of Scorpions and I'm sure they had Radar Love in their repertoire of classics too. Want to follow that thought through too?   Actually, I could imagine DLR "sing-talking" his way through the lyrics of Radar Love quite well, leers and all.

[uwe]

I always viewed Thin Lizzy as similar to UFO in the respect that they would put out a great album and follow it with a mediocre one.  Jailbreak broke them, but the follow-up was a let down.

The production of their mid period albums did Thin Lizzy no favors at the time - not their fault, they just weren't a band big enough to entertain a large production budget. The popularity of the, uhum, "Live" ("and Dangerous") album had much to do that for the first time the production of Tony Visconti mirrored what the band actually could sound like. It really is their best studio recording, don't you think so too, Rob?   Production of Bad Reputation (though in many ways not their happiest album, the Gorham/Robertson team had broken apart, Robertson can just be heard on a few tracks, Gorham had to mimic him which makes a lot of the twin guitar melodies sound too tame) was also handled by Visconti and that album too sounds worlds apart from the rather dusty and limp production of Jailbreak and Johnny the Fox. Those albums did not sound well even at the time, when I first heard them I was disappointed by the sonics more than everything else (initially I thought I had a bad cassette copy of Jailbreak until I heard the album which sounded just as flat). Any Martin Birch, Rodger Bain, Ron Nevison, Roger Glover, Jimmy Page, Eddie Kramer, Roy Thomas Baker, Tom Dowd or Bob Ezrin production of the time was in another league. The lack of an adequate producer can only be explained by the fact that their record company did not know what to do with them initially. Production quality perked up following Bad Reputation, but then other issues blocked the band's way into the big league such as drugs and the futile search for a lead guitar team as stable as Gorham and Robertson had been initially. Gary Moore (a difficult man at the best of times and a drug hater), Midge Ure (yup, him, Irish is Irish, forget how he didn't exactly have a hard rock pedigree, he later on healed the world but he couldn't heal Thin Lizzy), Snowy White (more comfortable playing blues or backing Pink Floyd than headbanging with Scott Gorham), Dave Flett (he of Manfred Mann's Earth Band, I don't know why he didn't work out), John Sykes (a young gun and fledgling guitar hero then, but not yet the Les Paul monster he would be on Whitesnake's 1987 or the Blue Murder Album, also not really someone you can pair with another guitarist) - did I forget anyone, Rob?

[westen44]

DLR probably could "sing-talk" through Radar Love pretty well, all joking aside.  But on a song such as "Twilight Zone," I can't even imagine anyone else singing it (with George Kooymans doing the speaking lines,) except for Barry Hay.  Compare Twilight Zone to Panama and that paints a vivid picture of why I'm a Golden Earring fan but not a Van Halen fan.  

[gweimer]

I always liked the sound of Jailbreak.  Maybe it's just that the songs were so much better than Johnny The Fox.  Good songs can overcome bad production, but not always vice versa.

I would agree that Thin Lizzy may be in higher regard now that they are gone than they were then.  Yes, they have a touring band, but Lynott was the heart and soul of that band.   Now, it's just a memory.

[westen44]

I always liked the sound of Jailbreak.  Maybe it's just that the songs were so much better than Johnny The Fox.  Good songs can overcome bad production, but not always vice versa.

I would agree that Thin Lizzy may be in higher regard now that they are gone than they were then.  Yes, they have a touring band, but Lynott was the heart and soul of that band.   Now, it's just a memory.

Sadly, many bands (and artists) are now just a memory. 

[Basvarken]

The production of their mid period albums did Thin Lizzy no favors at the time - not their fault, they just weren't a band big enough to entertain a large production budget. The popularity of the, uhum, "Live" ("and Dangerous") album had much to do that for the first time the production of Tony Visconti mirrored what the band actually could sound like. It really is their best studio recording, don't you think so too, Rob?  

Actually, the overdubs on Live & Dangerous were not an exception in the musical landscape of that era. In fact it has been grossly exaggerated how many overdubs were actually done. They did the backing vocals because there was too much bleed on the mics on stage. And I think Gorham may have repaired a solo or two. Robertson refused to do any overdubs at all. Have you ever heard the King Biscuit recordings? They are the basic recordings for Live & Dangerous. If you hear these recordings you wonder why they even bothered to do overdubs in the first place. You hear the band firing on all cylinders.

Production of Bad Reputation (though in many ways not their happiest album, the Gorham/Robertson team had broken apart, Robertson can just be heard on a few tracks, Gorham had to mimic him which makes a lot of the twin guitar melodies sound too tame) was also handled by Visconti and that album too sounds worlds apart from the rather dusty and limp production of Jailbreak and Johnny the Fox. Those albums did not sound well even at the time, when I first heard them I was disappointed by the sonics more than everything else (initially I thought I had a bad cassette copy of Jailbreak until I heard the album which sounded just as flat). Any Martin Birch, Rodger Bain, Ron Nevison, Roger Glover, Jimmy Page, Eddie Kramer, Roy Thomas Baker, Tom Dowd or Bob Ezrin production of the time was in another league. The lack of an adequate producer can only be explained by the fact that their record company did not know what to do with them initially.

My favorite Thin Lizzy albums are the albums Fighting, Nightlife and Johnny The Fox. I actually like the fact that they weren't perfect production-wise. And you can hear the band re-inventing themselves after they had become a four piece coming from the Eric Bell era power-trio.
I have some beautiful BBC recordings where you hear songs not quite yet crystallized into their final form. Those are real gems.
In the early days of the Gorham/Robertson line up they had a loose funkiness to them that I find very cool.
They lost that when they got more heavy handed. And it was totally gone with the Black Rose album that has Gary Moore's signature written all over.

Production quality perked up following Bad Reputation, but then other issues blocked the band's way into the big league such as drugs and the futile search for a lead guitar team as stable as Gorham and Robertson had been initially. Gary Moore (a difficult man at the best of times and a drug hater), Midge Ure (yup, him, Irish is Irish, forget how he didn't exactly have a hard rock pedigree, he later on healed the world but he couldn't heal Thin Lizzy), Snowy White (more comfortable playing blues or backing Pink Floyd than headbanging with Scott Gorham), Dave Flett (he of Manfred Mann's Earth Band, I don't know why he didn't work out), John Sykes (a young gun and fledgling guitar hero then, but not yet the Les Paul monster he would be on Whitesnake's 1987 or the Blue Murder Album, also not really someone you can pair with another guitarist) - did I forget anyone, Rob?

Well there's Eric Bell of course. And they had this duo John (du)Cann and German(!) Andy Gee before they found the Gorham/ Robertson tandem.
They auditioned another German guitarist called Michael Schenker too!
And of course Adrian Van den Berg. Van den Berg was appalled by the heavy drug use in the band and went straight back to The Netherlands to focus on his own band VandenBerg...

[gearHed289]

Actually, the overdubs on Live & Dangerous were not an exception in the musical landscape of that era. In fact it has been grossly exaggerated how many overdubs were actually done. They did the backing vocals because there was too much bleed on the mics on stage. And I think Gorham may have repaired a solo or two. Robertson refused to do any overdubs at all. Have you ever heard the King Biscuit recordings? They are the basic recordings for Live & Dangerous. If you hear these recordings you wonder why they even bothered to do overdubs in the first place. You hear the band firing on all cylinders.

I have a CD called "Still Dangerous", which is from the same era, but without the overdubs. "Why did they bother?" is right!

Here's what Tony Visconti has to say about it. http://tonyvisconti.com/artists/thinlizzy.shtml Click on the Live and Dangerous cover...

[westen44]

Speaking of Eric Bell and also of Gweimer's comment that some things are just a memory now, here is a song which speaks to that.  Eric Bell is on lead, out of place in a sense, in an obscure band.  That's Noel Redding on bass, of course, but not vocals.  I thought of the lyrics when Gweimer made his comment; the lyrics begin with--

"I'm just a memory after all, after all...



Eric Bell's solo begins around 3:02.

[Basvarken]

Here's what Tony Visconti has to say about it. http://tonyvisconti.com/artists/thinlizzy.shtml Click on the Live and Dangerous cover...

Robertson (as well as Downey and Gorham) think Visconti has a distorted memory on how the album came about...

http://www.guitarplayer.com/article/brian-robertson-puts-the-live-back-in-live-and-dangerous/147543

[uwe]

Tony Visconti probably hasn't produced a real live album in his life, he's a studio sound wizard and embellisher - see T. Rex or Bowie - but not a "put the band down as it is" sound engineer such as Martin Birch then or Kevin Shirley today. And if you compare Live and Dangerous to Made in Japan, it sounds about as live as Unleashed in the Stud..., errrm, East, i.e. not very live at all. But I'm sure that Thin Lizzy (like Judas Priest) could play live well in their heyday. They were not the only ones to help a little in the studio, UFO's Lights Out doesn't sound very live to my ears either. Ron Nevison has admitted that some songs were recorded live in the studio with the audience - Framton comes Alive style - added in later.

Back to the thread's topic, where is that classic David Lee Roth VH line up live album? Did they not dare to put one out due to his pitching problems live?

[Basvarken]

UFO's Lights Out doesn't sound very live to my ears either.

You mean Strangers In the Night...
Same story; I've heard the original recordings and don't understand why they even bothered to do overdubs.

[Basvarken]

Back to the thread's topic, where is that classic David Lee Roth VH line up live album? Did they not dare to put one out due to his pitching problems live?

Exactly. DLR has had trouble pitching and remembering lyrics all through his career.
But I've seen him live several times and I can assure you it never bothered me one second. I only remember my big smile from ear to ear. He sure knew how to entertain an audience.
I saw VH with Hagar once and I wanted to leave early because I was bored...

[Hörnisse]

My favorite Lizzy records were Johnny The Fox, Bad Reputation, Live And Dangerous and Black Rose.  Wish I could have seen them live but we were overseas from 1976 until 1979.  After that I was a poor college student. 

[gweimer]

One of my favorite Thin Lizzy songs came out before they became a quartet.  Here's a live version with Moore.  There's another video where Lynott is using a Ric.