10 Years Ago Today... We Lost The Thunder : John Entwistle 1944-2002

[dc10bass]

I think I liked his soloing on the Who by Numbers album best - he had a nice warm tone back then. I do not like how it developed in the eighties, nineties and noughties: Buzz-ard indeed.

UWE, I agree... Great album and "Dreaming From The Waist" is GOLD!
I do like how his Buzzard sounded for some songs on the 1989 tour; "Sparks" and "Eyesight to the Blind" to name two.
...You should also check out The Who's performance at The Brit Awards in 1988, John Sounded Awesome!

When he started to really lose his hearing he moved into his giant rack rig in 1989, which sounded way too processed for my taste.

My favorite Entwistle rig is early/mid 70's; FenderBird and Sunn Coliseum amps.

[Dave W]

Monk was a pioneer in that he was one of the early adopters and was in a well known band.

Entwistle was a pioneer in a different way. He didn't approach bass conventionally and blazed his own trail along with his bandmates.

[slinkp]

I think Entwistle can legitimately be called a pioneer.  It's not to everybody's taste, but he did have a really distinctive approach to the instrument and you don't have to look far to find well-known bassists who claimed him as an influence.  Geddy Lee springs to mind.  I believe Geezer Butler said so as well (Wikipedia can't be wrong :-p )
Influence pretty much limited to RRROCK!!!! players, but that's no surprise given the source...

For a long time, to me, he was THE bassist I loved.  My taste is a lot more wide-ranging now, but he still gets to me... name a track on Who's Next and the bass playing is just great. "Gettin' in Tune", "Bargain", "Goin' Mobile".  Just lovely, and with a lot more subtlety and nuance than he gets credited for.

RIP The OX.

[uwe]

Frankly, I hear a lot more Jack Bruce in Geezer Butler than I hear Entwistle - as a matter of fact much of early Sabbath sounds like simplified Cream on downers to me, they did not really come into their own until Master of Reality. (I'm one of those people that prefer Sabbath Bloody Sabbath/Sabotage/Technical Ecstasy/Never say Die Sabbath to the first four albums though both Master of Reality and Volume IV were already getting there.) Most notably, Geezer plays behind the beat where JAE plays in front of it. If born in Jamaica, Geezer might have made a good reggae bassist with his delayed groove, something that would have been totally out of JAE's grasp.

And Geddy's bass playing is far too clockworkish, precise and continuously flowing (in his angular way). John played interesting, even daring stuff, but he rarely flowed. People blame Keith Moon's less than disciplined drumming for that lack of flow but in my ears The Who flowed even less without Keith Moon, Kenny Jones (who they preferred over Ian Paice when they auditoned Keith's successor, the cretins!) just providing a solid but unremarkable platform for JAE to provide even less a foundation.

Much as I like JAE, Chris Squire, Jack Bruce, Macca and other rock bass greats, I'm always frustrated how little you hear of them in 90% of today's bass playing. It's like they never ever existed. I defy anyone to name me a substantial number of Top 40 hits of the last two decades with overt Bruce, Entwistle, Macca or Squire influences. I think Flea is one of the few examples (especially in his post-slap-funk style) who breaks the mold. This is much to my chagrin because in most guitarists you can hear Hendrix, Van Halen or Cobain influences clearly. Mike Dirnt wouldn't play one iota differently if John, Jack, Paul and Chris had never graced this earth, he just needed Dee Dee Ramone to pattern himself after. Yes, come to think of it, Dee Dee Ramone is the most influential bassist in most of modern rock and pop music.   This is not knocking the Bruddahs who I love and who had the most apt bassist imaginable with Dee Dee, but it's not his bass playing that made the Ramones special.

[dadagoboi]

Frankly, I hear a lot more Jack Bruce in Geezer Butler than I hear Entwistle - as a matter of fact much of early Sabbath sounds like simplified Cream on downers to me, they did not really come into their own until Master of Reality. (I'm one of those people that prefer Sabbath Bloody Sabbath/Sabotage/Technical Ecstasy/Never say Die Sabbath to the first four albums though both Master of Reality and Volume IV were already getting there.) Most notably, Geezer plays behind the beat where JAE plays in front of it. If born in Jamaica, Geezer might have made a good reggae bassist with his delayed groove, something that would have been totally out of JAE's grasp.

And Geddy's bass playing is far too clockworkish, precise and continuously flowing (in his angular way). John played interesting, even daring stuff, but he rarely flowed. People blame Keith Moon's less than disciplined drumming for that lack of flow but in my ears The Who flowed even less without Keith Moon, Kenny Jones (who they preferred over Ian Paice when they auditoned Keith's successor, the cretins!) just providing a solid but unremarkable platform for JAE to provide even less a foundation.

Much as I like JAE, Chris Squire, Jack Bruce, Macca and other rock bass greats, I'm always frustrated how little you hear of them in 90% of today's bass playing. It's like they never ever existed. I defy anyone to name me a substantial number of Top 40 hits of the last two decades with overt Bruce, Entwistle, Macca or Squire influences. I think Flea is one of the few examples (especially in his post-slap-funk style) who breaks the mold. This is much to my chagrin because in most guitarists you can hear Hendrix, Van Halen or Cobain influences clearly. Mike Dirnt wouldn't play one iota differently if John, Jack, Paul and Chris had never graced this earth, he just needed Dee Dee Ramone to pattern himself after. Yes, come to think of it, Dee Dee Ramone is the most influential bassist in most of modern rock and pop music.  This is not knocking the Bruddahs who I love and who had the most apt bassist imaginable with Dee Dee, but it's not his bass playing that made the Ramones special.

As usual, difficult to respond succinctly to your rambling pronouncements.  I'll limit it to this:

Re JAE and Keith Moon, view this for judgment by their peers as to the importance and creativity of their playing:

Classic Albums: The Who: Who's Next, which is basically a live album.

You might read what Elvin Jones in the late 60s had to say about the context of Moon's playing.  It's in the Life Magazine issue with The Who draped in the Union Jack.

Still wondering how a bunch of Wops humiliated the German national team again?  The above might give a clue.

[uwe]

Maledeto, you really showed me now, didn't you? I'm still reeling from the blow and had to lick wounds for 24 hours before I could gather myself to muster a reply.

I'll try to structure this so it's easier for you to follow: Next para applies to soccer, the ones after that how you must go see il dottore subito because of your apparent hearing issues:

I know a better team when I see it. "The bunch of wops" played excellently and had a gifted goalkeeper and "Stürmer" - I always held that we gave up our African colonies too early when there is a lot of talent lurking there. Old Axis loyalties prevail though and the Italia team is now my favorite, hope they take the cup home to their mammas and Balotelli is an icon of animal-brutish coolness.

And now, more seriously, for the medical part:

Ok, I give up. Keith Moon was technically a fantastic drummer and JAE grooved lik hell. The two groovemeisters should have really been in Santana. Never mind that Keith never professed to be a technically good drummer and was not held to be a technically good drummer by those who were (Carl Palmer, Ian Paice, Cozy Powell, Phil Collins, Bonzo), he was an inspired and unconventional drummer (and he had swing, I actaully pefer him to Bonham), look up the difference between the two terms in a dictionary. But with his hurried and sloppy rolls he was as much a technically proficent bdrummer as Alvin Lee is a technically precise guitarist (I still like them both). Please also consider that JAE (who knew Moon's drumming possibly a little better than most of us) once said in an interview that he doesn't miss "Moonie as a drummer, in fact I play better with Kenny, Moonie was all over the place, now I have more of a solid basis and more freedom, but I miss him definitely as a person".

And if you can't hear that JAE doesn't so much play IN the music of The Who or BELOW it, but OVER it - his lines are structured and composed -. more a lead guitar than a bassist approach ... I should know, my approach is similar (and I sometimes see it as a shortcoming to more organic players), but I wouldn't have gotten the job in Santana either.

You guys drool over a rhythm section that wouldn't get a job in the studios of the last three decades for its sheer overplaying and idiosyncracies. I like that rhythm section but it has NOT, repeat: NOT been a significant influence on how rhythm sections sound today. Much to my chagrin btw.

Let me know the parts you didn't understand, will you, si? We're always keen to help, be it intellectually or with the liberation of your avatar.

[Dave W]

^^^ There must be eddies in the time-space continuum.

Uwe, who cares how much or little JAE and Moon's influences can be heard in later music? Same with the other artists you mention. It doesn't detract one bit from what they did.

[Pilgrim]

Every now and then, there's a Hendrix or an SRV (and SRV definitely was a close disciple of Hendrix) and maybe a Clapton or Santana.  Aside from those few, it seems to me that not too many musicians create an identifiable style that is pervasive in music.  I do think that individuals will replicate the style of an Ox, or a Jaco, or a Duck Dunn.  But it's sometimes hard to tell with today's highly processed and massaged music. 

[Chris P.]

I'm totally with Uwe!! I love Moon, but I wouldn't wanne be in a band with him...

I think guys like Entwistle did a lot for music. Maybe not for how bass lines in songs sound nowadays, but think the first big stacks, bi-amping, roundwound strings and more...

I do think that we need more melodic bass players. I love to listen to the melodic lines of those sixties guys like JAE, Plonk Lane, guy of The Animals (We've Gotta Get Out Of This Place), Pete Quaife. I would love to hear that more.  I tried it in my former band and a bit in my current band. Flea sure is melodic!

[Pilgrim]

IIRC it was Chas Chandler with The Animals.

And I agree.  Myself, I think we need more Duckness.

[uwe]

^^^ There must be eddies in the time-space continuum.

Uwe, who cares how much or little JAE and Moon's influences can be heard in later music? Same with the other artists you mention. It doesn't detract one bit from what they did.

No, it doesn't, but that isn't the point. Like in any JAE thread he is called a pioneer, when in fact the land he discovered was never populated. That is afunny definition of pioneer in my book. Eddie van Halen was a pioneer for legions of guitarists, JAE just a highly original bassist without much of a sustained following. People frame him and put him up against the wall, but I hear very little JAE'isms in the current rock. But perhaps I need to give Never Mind the Bollocks, Automatic for the People and Nevermind another spin!

[gweimer]

James Jamerson was the foundation of style that not only demonstrated skill and creativity, but has lasted as a worldwide, popular, mainstream style and sound.  His influence comes through again and again.

[TBird1958]

I think you're right Chris...........

Moon would have driven a plodder like me insane, he was an alcoholic (IIRC), personally I wish JAE had influnced me more - I'll always like his playing with The Who far more than any other "virtuoso" including Lee. 

[Highlander]

This is the classic ten musicians listing ten musicians scenario personified...

Everyone has a right to an opinion, as long as it causes no offence to anyone...

If someone influences anyone in a positive way, that is all that counts, nothing more...

For me, John Entwistle was involved with a three other musicians that produced music I love to listen to. He influenced my playing style (as did a select few others) in what I consider to be a positive way and I am lucky enough to have seen him play with that very same lineup that recorded every track I own, or have played...

(I still don't rate Moonie... but by gosh, he was a showman... )

[Dave W]

No, it doesn't, but that isn't the point. Like in any JAE thread he is called a pioneer, when in fact the land he discovered was never populated. That is afunny definition of pioneer in my book. Eddie van Halen was a pioneer for legions of guitarists, JAE just a highly original bassist without much of a sustained following. People frame him and put him up against the wall, but I hear very little JAE'isms in the current rock. But perhaps I need to give Never Mind the Bollocks, Automatic for the People and Nevermind another spin!

Sure the land he discovered is populated. All you have to do is consider how many bassists on forums consider themselves indebted to him. Just because you don't hear his direct influence in the mainstream pap foisted on the next generation by the corrupt music industry doesn't mean he doesn't still have a dedicated following.

You can't compare him with EVH or, say, SRV. Rock or blues/rock guitarists tend to be much more derivative.